Most are damned?

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2 Peter seems to say the opposite. What dogmas make it seem that more people are saved then not?
 
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ProdglArchitect said:
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porthos11:
To this question we really have to answer “we don’t know” and the Church has declined to do define it as well. We only know that God has laid out a fixed order of grace, and our free will factors into it. Regardless of what school of thought we subscribe to, we will not be able fully reconcile grace and free will.
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This presupposes that:
1: God ever withhold a grace from us as an act of His will.
2: There is ever any singular act of grace that can result in our salvation.

I disagree with both assumptions. I do not believe God would ever withhold a grace from someone if there was any chance of that person accepting it, even unto death. I also do not think it is right to consider the grace of God in terms of singular instances that He will give or withhold at will.
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And yet, this is exactly what we have to believe. God does grant and withhold graces according to his will.

Again, let me be clear, we must affirm, and I affirm, that God provides sufficient grace to all men. But not for all men will that grace be efficacious.

Of course the illustration is simplified, to describe (apparently, not too well) an example order of grace, so I just used singular graces. But salvation CAN be attained through cooperation with a single act of grace; it has happened with some people. In reality though, God sends us many graces, some of which we reject and other accept in the course of our lifetime.

But yet, yes. God could have given some person this grace or that grace that may have secured his salvation, but for some reason did not. And again, rather than saying “I disagree”, I must affirm it, even if I must admit I do not know why. Even with my Molinist tendencies, this question cannot be satisfactorily answered. It’s worse if you’re Thomist.

And yet God chose to lay out this particular order of grace, in which everyone receives sufficient grace, but not all graces are efficacious. But in light of God’s revelation that his Will and his Providence are immutable, so also is the order of grace.
 
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porthos11 said:
but not all graces are efficacious.
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I think this is where we disagree. All grace is efficacious, if we accept it. That’s the big questions, if we accept it or not. God can chose to withhold graces at His discretion, but he Does not actively will any soul to be lost, and therefore would not withhold all graces which could be used to bring a person to conversion. The sad fact is that many people simply don’t want to repent and be converted.
 
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ProdglArchitect said:
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porthos11:
but not all graces are efficacious.
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I think this is where we disagree. All grace is efficacious, if we accept. That’s the big questions, if we accept it or not.
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Efficacious means having the intended effect, i.e. the salvation of the person. This is a rather specific meaning in study of predestination. A grace is only efficacious if it has been freely cooperated with. If it has been rejected, it is not efficacious.
 
porthos11 said:
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ProdglArchitect:
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porthos11:
but not all graces are efficacious.
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I think this is where we disagree. All grace is efficacious, if we accept. That’s the big questions, if we accept it or not.
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Efficacious means having the intended effect, i.e. the salvation of the person. This is a rather specific meaning in study of predestination. A grace is only efficacious if it has been freely cooperated with. If it has been rejected, it is not efficacious.
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Erm… that is exactly what I said…

Edit: I see you quoted my post before I had the chance to correct my error in the second sentence. I’m pretty sure you and I agree on this point.
 
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St John vianny and the children of fatima said people were going into hell like snowflakes. I believe many are damned.
 
I tend to think God gives everyone enough Grace, but that in denying it, eventually, God knows their ability and that those who go to Hell could have accepted the graces, but in their free choice declined it, despite being given enough. Much more than enough. Separating the wheat from the chaff. Also, our actions would seem to be affected by our measure of Grave afforded. If the Virgin Mary had sinned even a little after being given so much grace, I think the effect would have been much more grave than if someone with less had done so. Is what I mean.
I’m no pro theologian or anything, but it seems to me that there may be not enough of a focus on the ability to accept or reject grace.

I think it should also be noted that accepting grace seems to become easier the more Grace one accepts already. I suppose this is really the key to sanctification.
 
porthos11 said:
Since God is responsible for the fixed order of grace laid out before us, and the number of the predestined and reprobate fixed from eternity (Catholic doctrine, by the way, not Calvinist),
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Where do you get this from? Also, what do you mean by the “fixed order of grace”?
 
If most are damned, then why would anyone living in the most privileged country, during the most privileged time in the history of humanity think they would have a snowball’s chance in…well you know, of making it to the puffy cloud?
 
Most terms like that seem derogatory…
but that’s just me.
 
Personally I think it’s offensive to God to judge who goes where, and how many. We should HOPE that everyone is saved, and at the same time accept that it is a possibility for any of us and try to avoid it at all costs. As for non-Christians or those away from the church, personal experience tells me that God is certainly willing to act in extraordinary ways to save them, however it’s nothing to bank on.
 
Socrates92 said:
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porthos11:
Since God is responsible for the fixed order of grace laid out before us, and the number of the predestined and reprobate fixed from eternity (Catholic doctrine, by the way, not Calvinist),
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Where do you get this from? Also, what do you mean by the “fixed order of grace”?
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Just get Ott’s book for details: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

By “fixed order of grace”, we mean that what graces, every grace, how much, how often, to whom are already determined and fixed in God’s will. It is an essential corollary to the dogma that God is immutable and eternal.
 
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I am only one person. Maybe someone else will share in your sense of humor.
 
You should say:

“Good for you that you are orthodox and actually listen to the words of our Lord instead of changing or ignoring them due to a desire to satisfy secular attitudes.”
 
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