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reteeks21
Guest
Yet another example of how some blame protestants for the moral failures of others. I didn’t realize we had such an impact on the choices of others. When all else fails blame a protestant.
Most non-Catholic sects declare that the Holy Spirit is 'teaching' them the truth.
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jmcrae
Guest
The difference is that a flesh and blood teacher can give them material feedback to let them know that they have misunderstood the lesson. They can hear her voice telling them, “No, this is incorrect” and explaining why it is incorrect, and they can read her comments on their worksheets. But the Holy Spirit can’t do that, when “the Holy Spirit” is really just whatever you happen to want to believe - no matter how sincerely you want to believe it.
When someone says, “no human being is allowed to teach me; only the Holy Spirit, working directly in my heart” (while forgetting that the heart is deceitful above all things) then there is no way for the person to receive any kind of feedback that their ideas are incorrect.
Right. But when the student says, “There is no human teacher. Math is in my heart, so when I listen to my heart, I will know Math perfectly, and so anything a human being says, especially any human being who is claiming to be a Math teacher, that disagrees with what my heart is telling me, then the human being is automatically wrong (no matter how many years of experience they have studying Math), and my heart is right.”
Right. But when they decide that the teacher couldn’t possibly know what she is talking about, and decide that whatever makes the most sense to them is, therefore, true, and that anything they don’t understand, or doesn’t fit in with their preferred lifestyle, is automatically false, because “the Holy Spirit” (that is, their own idea) disagrees, then there is no way that they can ever come to the Truth, because they have actually blocked the action of the Holy Spirit, by refusing to listen to His appointed teachers.
Right. But these, at least, have hope, because when they are ready for it, they know where to find the Truth.Even in the Catholic Church where you have the Holy Spirit teaching the “Church” thus providing an additional teacher, all the “students” don’t always get it. And some of them also stubbornly do what they want instead of what is taught. You call them “Cafeteria Catholics.”
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jmcrae
Guest
Well, it’s Protestantism that set up the social conditions that allow for people to invent their own “truth.”
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Bastoune
Guest
These comments are all typical of Protestant “ego-latry.”
St. Jerome was a fallible human with his opinions. He based his initial rejection of the DEUTEROCANONICALS in the Jewish rejection of them in A.D. 90 – years AFTER the Church was well under way and using those Scriptures.
Why did the Jews reject them? Well, first of all, they were the Jerusalem Jews who rejected them – even today Jews in Northern Africa (Maghreb), Egypt and Ethiopia regard them as sacred. They were done away with because the Hebrew texts were no longer extant and they were considered “hellenistic” in their influences.
Yet since then, texts in Hebrew of some of the Deuterocanonicals have been found, older than the oldest texts of the OT on which Catholics and Protestants agree! Uh-oh…
Jerome was entitled to his OPINION but realize that the Church is a BODY, not the ego of ONE MAN like Protestant sects – and the Holy Spirit guided the Councils of Hippo (394) and Carthage (397) to the infallible decision it did. Jerome approved the Deuterocanonicals as he was part of that process.
The Church operates as a WHOLE BODY.
What about Martin Luther’s rejection of James, Hebrews, Esther… and various other books?
And even early on, most people rejected 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Revelation…
Who’s to say the whole NT is not just some invented ****?
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reteeks21
Guest
Solely Protestantism? That kind of stuff wasn’t happening way before the Reformation?
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jmcrae
Guest
Not to anything like the same degree as now, and it certainly wasn’t considered “normal” or “my right.”
The norm prior to the Reformation was that truth is truth, and we are required to believe it and follow it, our personal opinions notwithstanding. The idea of individuals with no particular qualifications making their own decisions about what is moral or not, would have been almost unthinkable, and anyone doing so would not have been looked upon as being particularly intelligent, sane, or wise by the community at large - whereas today, people who come up with their own morality are “courageous,” “creative,” etc. but back in those days, they were considered cranks and kooks.
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reteeks21
Guest
People have been coming up with their own things that are contrary to God’s laws since time began. Ever since the “fall” man has been trying to do his own thing apart from God. Blaming Protestants for relativism is like blaming all Catholics for the atrotcities committed during the Crusades. That sort of logic is unfair and unintelligent. People have never needed an excuse to come up with their own way of doing things no matter how wrong they are, and placing the cultural shift at the feet of other Christians (if you would even call us that) is really disingenous.
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jmcrae
Guest
I guess my point is that this activity wasn’t really considered a virtue, until the advent of Protestantism. It was Protestantism that said, “Don’t question other people’s moral decisions, because you have no way of knowing what the Holy Spirit is saying to that person.”
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reteeks21
Guest
Where in the world from at any point in the Reformation was anything remotely like that written or said? Luther did not even come close to what you have you said. Again, another blanket statement that is based on falsity, bias, or maybe even both.
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jmcrae
Guest
Where in the world from at any point in the Reformation was anything remotely like that written or said? Luther did not even come close to what you have you said. Again, another blanket statement that is based on falsity, bias, or maybe even both.
And yet, this line is almost universally recited by all Protestants everywhere, regardless of their denomination.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Where in the world from at any point in the Reformation was anything remotely like that written or said? Luther did not even come close to what you have you said. Again, another blanket statement that is based on falsity, bias, or maybe even both.
First of all, Luther absolutely failed to “reform” the Catholic church. If Luther was doing God’s work, he wouldn’t of failed, after all, God doesn’t fail.
Second you bring up the Crusades “again” and let me explain to you . The Muslims were invading the Byzatines and the Emperor called the Roman Pontiff for some back up help. The pope then sent the Christians to defend the Byzantines. Thank God for the Crusades.
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Syele
Guest
You are kidding right? Saying that a flesh and blood fallible human is better than The Holy Spirit who is one of the three persons of the Godhead? The Holy Spirit is God. He is not “whatever you happen to want to believe.”
All your “Right buts” are saying yeah it works if people are not lying to themselves and being stubborn. News Flash, people will lie to themselves and be stubborn regardless, that is not Gods fault it is the peoples fault.
God is perfectly capable of revealing Himself without a Human “helping” and He does so when He sees fit. And if Im lying to myself about soemthing and trying to convince myself that right is wrong, I know it deep down… and I will ahve to answer to God for it. But no way Im gonna say “Well If Im in Denial its cause God isnt talking to me in Audible English” pfft.
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jmcrae
Guest
He can, but name one instance in Scripture other than Abraham where He did. (Moses was taught about God by his mother.) God normally reveals Himself to us through other people.
And there can’t possibly be so many exceptions to the rule as to account for every Protestant religion on earth, each with its own “Holy Spirit” telling them all manner of contradictory things.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
The Holy Spirit is leading and guiding the Catholic church, since we are the oldest Christian church around…history doesn’t lie…
Well, I already gave you one, but any source, really, that is factual, that quotes one of the reformers, or an official denominational website that makes such a claim.
Jon
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Hey Jon, I saw another Lutheran minister on the Journey home again converting to the Catholic faith!
And they say they are, and that the HS is leading them. I would contend that the HS is attempting to lead all of us, with varying degrees of success, not dependant on His ability, but dependent on our ability and willingness to discern.
And it is a waste of time and effort, and evidence of a lack of Christian charity to accuse on another, instead of trying to work and pray together to better discern Him in Christian unity.
Jon
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Hisalone
Guest
The RCC with all its faults is much improved since Luther. Perhaps Luther succeeded after all.
Vatican ll may be Luthers grande finale.
And I pray that he be richly blessed in his decision, because I believe the HS leads the Catholic Church, too.Hey Jon, I saw another Lutheran minister on the Journey home again converting to the Catholic faith!
Jon
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