Most priests know far more about marriage than most married people do

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Edward_H said:
I didn’t bring breastfeeding into this thread…someone else did.
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Unless the search function is inaccurate, it actually appears you did. The first mention in the results is post 145:
Edward_H said:
It’s really ludicrous the positions that some put forth, and what’s worse, they’re not just baseless, they’re dramatic and self-pitying. “Woe is us the parents…no one knows what we do…” Boo hoo.

last week it was the “breast feeders”…some who tried to characterize breast feeding as tantamount to fighting up Mount Suribachi.
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Edward_H said:
I didn’t bring breastfeeding into this thread…someone else did.
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I didn’t say you did. I said you were discussing it before I jumped into the conversation which you refuse to acknowledge.
Edward_H said:
I don’t care to engage with you anymore; your discursive and cherry picking approach is too annoying to deal with, just pesky.
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Yeah. That seems to be your typical M.O. when you don’t want to answer points in the discussion at hand. Refusing to engage anymore by making subjective accusations as your reason for bowing out. I haven’t cherry-picked anything.
I have responded to complete points made by you in complete responses to those points. It is a discussion forum after all.
Edward_H said:
You haven’t touched a single assertion I have advanced why a priest knows far more about marriage than most married people.
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I have touched all the assertions you made in your original post in my original comment. I just don’t buy what you’re trying to sell. It’s ok. You don’t have to win everyone over to your point of view. You still get to keep it even if others disagree with you.
 
An authoritative witness from the Church is required.

And what good couple would want to be married not close to the Holy Mass??

I can’t imagine such a start to a
Marriage, can you?
 
Elizabeth3 said:
Nothing you said proves your assertion that MOST priests know far more about marriage than most married people do. I don’t buy the argument based on the “numbers game” in which priests hear a lot in the confessional that most married people don’t hear whether from other people they know personally or from the almost limitless articles in social media on the topic. I don’t buy that married people are particularly any more sheltered from the plethora of problems that can go on in marriages. (especially not in these internet days.)
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Right.

Edward_H has cited one priest he knows who has a heavy confession schedule and various people have pointed out that confession covers things going wrong, but not how to make them go right. Throw in your excellent point about the internet, and it’s not hard for married people who pay attention to online discussions on marriage problems to wind up seeing a lot of different stuff. I know for myself that the 5+ years I’ve been on CAF have been an eye-opener.
 
Edward_H said:
An authoritative witness from the Church is required.

And what good couple would want to be married not close to the Holy Mass??

I can’t imagine such a start to a

Marriage, can you?
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In desert island examples and similar, the Catholic couple does not need a priest for a valid marriage. I forget the exact details, but it’s all in canon law.
 
Don’t forget the ordinary minister is a priest or deacon, too. There isn’t even a canonical preference for a priest.
 
I may be wrong but perhaps the intent of the OP and thread was to assert and affirm the supreme importance of the Catholic clergy.
 
That doesn’t need to be said this way though. It’s not an insult to our clergy to say that they aren’t experts on everything possibly related to the faith.

The protestants make the error of having the clergy be celebrant, teacher, and psychologist and being expected to be good at all three.
 
I’d like to talk a bit about continual sacrifice as a marital model.

Unfortunately, it’s compatible with a lot of self-deception as to how much one is in fact doing (selfish people can falsely believe they are continually self-sacrificing), or blindness to on’s spouse’s actual needs.

I would suggest the following instead to the average married person:

–listening to one’s spouse about what they want
–trying to be fair and not taking privileges for oneself that one doesn’t allow one’s spouse

Fairness and listening may sound a lot more modest than continual excruciating self-sacrifice, but may (for the average person) involve doing more for one’s spouse, being more on the same page, and be less prone to self-deception.

A person’s family sees them at home doing what they do. A confessor (just as CAF commentors giving advice) is dependent on the person’s account of what they did and unfortunately, garbage in will mean garbage out. Hence, a person’s family and other intimates have an important role to play with regard to pointing out that they are not doing their duty and/or not being fare to the people they live with.
 
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Xantippe said:
“No routine kisses” strikes me as being sweet but unrealistic advice.
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It sounds like a good goal to me. Maybe you won’t always do it, but the general effect will be better if you tried than if you concluded the standard was impossible to meet, don’t you think?

Aim for perfection from yourself, but that has to include mercy, too. If you aim for perfection that includes mercy, surely you will reach excellence.
 
Xantippe said:
I’d like to talk a bit about continual sacrifice as a marital model.

Unfortunately, it’s compatible with a lot of self-deception as to how much one is in fact doing (selfish people can falsely believe they are continually self-sacrificing), or blindness to on’s spouse’s actual needs.

I would suggest the following instead to the average married person:

–listening to one’s spouse about what they want

–trying to be fair and not taking privileges for oneself that one doesn’t allow one’s spouse

Fairness and listening may sound a lot more modest than continual excruciating self-sacrifice, but may (for the average person) involve doing more for one’s spouse, being more on the same page, and be less prone to self-deception.

A person’s family sees them at home doing what they do. A confessor (just as CAF commentors giving advice) is dependent on the person’s account of what they did and unfortunately, garbage in will mean garbage out. Hence, a person’s family and other intimates have an important role to play with regard to pointing out that they are not doing their duty and/or not being fare to the people they live with.
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I think C.S. Lewis pointed out that the positive “charity” leads to good results, where the negative “unselfishness” can lead to competitions in petty altruism and an atmosphere of the self-granted martyrdom of the underappreciated.
 
PetraG said:
I think C.S. Lewis pointed out that the positive “charity” leads to good results, where the negative “unselfishness” can lead to competitions in petty altruism and an atmosphere of the self-granted martyrdom of the underappreciated.
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Yeah. He has a lot to say about perversions of charity (for example the previously mentioned Mrs. Fidget).

You may be thinking of what I believe he calls the Generous Conflict Illusion Game in the Screwtape Letters, where everybody in a large family group starts advocating for the thing they don’t actually want, so that they all get mad at each other, everybody thinks that he is being self-sacrificing and unappreciated, and nobody ever gets what they want.

http://yourdailycslewis.blogspot.com/2005/08/generous-conflict-game.html
 
PetraG said:
It sounds like a good goal to me. Maybe you won’t always do it, but the general effect will be better if you tried than if you concluded the standard was impossible to meet, don’t you think?
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As a married lady of some experience, I think it’s not a reasonable goal. There’s always going to be a lot of routine in a long-term marriage, and that’s OK, and we shouldn’t feel bad about it and we certainly shouldn’t make our spouses feel bad about it.

Also, if everything is always special and unique, how will anything special and unique stand out? Special and unique stands out on a background of normal routine.
 
Xantippe said:
Yeah. He has a lot to say about perversions of charity (for example the previously mentioned Mrs. Fidget).

You may be thinking of what I believe he calls the Generous Conflict Illusion Game in the Screwtape Letters, where everybody in a large family group starts advocating for the thing they don’t actually want, so that they all get mad at each other, everybody thinks that he is being self-sacrificing and unappreciated, and nobody ever gets what they want.

The Window in the Garden Wall--A C.S. Lewis Blog: The Generous Conflict Game
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That is the one!
Xantippe said:
As a married lady of some experience, I think it’s not a reasonable goal. There’s always going to be a lot of routine in a long-term marriage, and that’s OK, and we shouldn’t feel bad about it and we certainly shouldn’t make our spouses feel bad about it.

Also, if everything is always special and unique, how will anything special and unique stand out? Special and unique stands out on a background of normal routine.
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Maybe we have a different idea of what “routine” means?

For instance, if you say that Ordinary Time on the liturgical calendar is “routine,” then that just means something that follows a predictable pattern. There is nothing wrong with predictable kisses! If you mean that–that is, that there are kisses that you come to expect and miss when they don’t materialize even if they come and go without any particular fanfare, then I’d agree. A routine of the family having dinner together every night is a valuble thing, too, even though of course it would run a family in a ridiculous pursuit of novelty to try to make every family dinner “unique”!

When the priest said “no routine kisses,” though, I took him to mean no kisses with without any mindfulness in them. What is the point of absent-minded kisses? A spouse who feels ignored would not feel better to get those on a regular basis.
 
Xantippe said:
Also, if everything is always special and unique, how will anything special and unique stand out? Special and unique stands out on a background of normal routine.
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It would be like getting a dozen roses every day. Pretty soon you aren’t going to want any more roses.
 
ConstantLearner said:
It would be like getting a dozen roses every day. Pretty soon you aren’t going to want any more roses.
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Yeah.

I’ve heard about people who think they need to do daily (!!!) love notes to husband or wife, and I think that’s over the top, and likely to lose its impact after a while.
 
Xantippe said:
I’ve heard about people who think they need to do daily (!!!) love notes to husband or wife, and I think that’s over the top, and likely to lose its impact after a while.
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After about a week, it would make me nauseous. LOL Not from lack of love for him, but just the whole thing. It’s a little sentimental and not authentic. Kind of lack that sappy cartoon, I can’t even remember the name. My memory has graciously scrubbed it from my brain. Oh, “Love Is…”. Guess my memory isn’t as gracious as I thought!
 
I’ve just taken a peek at this thread five minutes ago. Looks like it has been quite animated and colorful, among other things.

Can a definitive conclusion be summed up in 50 words or less for those on the go?
 
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One side believes priests know more about marriage than married couples because priests hear the confessions of married couples and are married to the Church, the highest calling. This side believes marriage must never be routine; only perfection will do, or at least always striving for perfection.

The other side believes that while priests can be good counselors, those who have actually experienced marriage on a day-to-day basis know most about it. They also believe that some routine is necessary and the “perfect” marriage doesn’t exist nor should it. If a spouse always tried to be perfect, marriage would lose its surprise and specialness.

We are not going to reach a detente.

That’s about the gist of it, though I’m sure someone will come along and say I’m wrong. 🤨
 
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