Most Protestant Say John 6 Is Symbolic

[ncgolf]

The question is who I trust to tell me who God is.

Well … who do you trust and why?

 

[mfbukowski]

The only true path is your path, right? Anyone who does not adhere to your “path” is wrong. Sounds like spiritual anarchy to me (do what YOU want and rationalize it any way possible to justify your stance).

Ah yes, and you also believe that your path is the true one, so this applies just as well to you.

 

[mfbukowski]

How simplistic, naïve, and downright ignorant!

Not all of us are Biblical scholars well educated in the history, political environment and idioms during the time of Jesus and capable of translating ancient Greek and Arabic to come to our own determinations and conclusions. Without authority there is anarchy, and you and others who proclaim inspiration by the Holy Spirit defy authority and are nothing more than theological anarchists.

That being said, you are guilty of hypocrisy because by the very claim that I “abdicate that responsibility to experts” so have you. By what knowledge do you affirm the Bible to be accurate? The inspired word of God? How was the Bible compiled? And where in the Bible, which Testament (Old or New), book, chapter, and verse does the Bible identify specifically those books to be included?

You claim an independent thought process, but that “independence” fails you because you must rely on the experts to give you the Bible, which is the Magesterium of the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic Church who was led by the Holy Spirit to compile the same book you try to interpret on your own and condemn the Catholic Church. You try to rationalize that you have come to your own conclusion under a great revelation, but the truth is that you are only kidding yourself for without an authority to determine the inspired scriptures you would have nothing.

So, in a sense, by using the Bible, you confirm that the Catholic Church is the true Church of God; sadly, you are a little too full of yourself to see it. You may have a “brain,” but you fail to display the wisdom to use it.

I am Mormon.
We believe we can get direct revelation from God about what church is true
I have received that revelation

 

[jim1130]

Genesis 14:17 among other places. What was the priesthood Melchizadek had? It was not Levitical. Why did Abraham pay him tithes, and arguably have a “communion service”? And why is Christ said to be a Priest forever after the order of Melchizadek?

Who was this guy and what were they doing?

Your other cites apply only if you believe Catholic tradition, which I do not accept

Nice dodge, although I find it contradictory that you profess to use your brain yet exclude anything that challenges your position.

I also provided these, which you conveniently opted to ignore:

St. Matthew 26:26-28
St. Mark 14:22-24
St. Luke 22:19-20
1 Corinthians 11:24-25

Very well, let me help you with “eating flesh” and “drinking blood” analogies in the Bible:

Micah 3:1-3 You that hate good, and love evil: that violently pluck off their skins from them and their flesh from their bones? 3 Who have eaten the flesh of my people, and have flayed their skin off them: and have broken, and chopped their bones as for the kettle, and as flesh in the midst of the pot.

Isaiah 9:20 20 And he shall turn to the right hand, and shall be hungry: and shall eat on the left hand, and shall not be filled: every one shall eat the flesh of his own arm: Manasses Ephraim, and Ephraim Manasses, and they together shall be against Juda.

Isaiah 49:26 26 And I will feed thy enemies with their own flesh: and they shall be made drunk with their own blood, as with new wine: and all flesh shall know, that I am the Lord that save thee, and thy Redeemer the Mighty One of Jacob.

To Jews of Christ’s day, to “eat someone’s flesh and drink someone’s blood” was synonymous with persecution, violence, betrayal, bitterly hate, and murder. Also, “to drink some one’s blood”, in Scripture, especially, has no other figurative meaning than that of dire chastisement (“The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Dr. Ludwig Ott).

That’s why, if Jesus had been speaking figuratively, his words would have made no sense at all. He would have been saying, “I solemnly assure you that unless you persecute and betray me you have no life within you. He who does violence to me has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.” That makes no sense at all, but that’s exactly what he would have been saying if his words were symbolic.

 

[jim1130]

I am Mormon.
We believe we can get direct revelation from God about what church is true
I have received that revelation

I am sorry to read that you ditched the Catholic Church for the “Mormon revelation.”

I do find it ironic that you dismiss the Early Church Fathers, of whom many were disciples of the Apostles themselves, which I had cited earlier, yet you accept the Book of Mormon.

I must admit I am curious where in the Bible it states that Jesus and Satan were brothers who both pitched different ideas of salvation to God, of which he selected Christ’s plan, which resulted in Satan becoming angry and being cast from Heaven with the end result, the Devil, and his legions of evil disciples?

I am also curious where it reads that their are 3 levels of Heaven in which the good Mormons who achieve the first level become mini-gods of their own universe or domain; that those assigned to the second level, the unperfected Mormons, must struggle to attain the higher level of Heaven; and the third level, which is reserved for heathens, of which I suppose that means Catholics (and from your earlier posts will also be inhabited by Southern Baptists and Free Will Baptists since they are not correct in their “path” either, as you determine the path to be).

I am also curious where it is explained in the Bible that God is one of many mini-gods, that our God was assigned dominion over Earth alone and that there are other gods out there who are assigned dominion over other worlds.

Now, again, please explain to me how this post…

It’s really a question of trust. Do you trust the brain God gave you or do you abdicate that responsibility to “experts”? It is similar to conservatism or liberalism politically. Of course we don’t want to go there.

That is why I believe we can find the true church only by witness of the spirit-- God telling you which church is true.

…exempts you from claiming that you do not follow any authority except your own. The reality is that you have thrown your lot into believing the false teachings of the Mormon Church so you have also “abdicated that responsibility to those whom you determine are “experts.” What I find truly repulsive is that you come on this site not to learn about Catholicism, but to attack it and tear it down, which you cannot because you know the Catholic Church, with Apostolic lineage, can trace her roots to the time of Christ, and she is protected by Christ himself. You dismiss the Early Church Fathers, but it is the Early Church Fathers who served as martyrs for the Catholic faith and without them there would not exist the Bible, only multitudes of heretical sects preaching a false Gospel.

So, yes, you contribute to theological anarchy and I will add another: spiritual narcissism. You come on this site under false pretenses and I make no excuse of behaving less than charitably.

 

[jim1130]

Ah yes, and you also believe that your path is the true one, so this applies just as well to you.

But I am open and honest. You have committed a falsehood, claiming that I abdicate whereas you do not, but the truth is that you do by following the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

[jim1130]

Well … who do you trust and why?

Do not expect any credible answer to this question from mfbukowski.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Ah yes grasshopper but this is not the problem. The problem is how do you know what God wants you to do?

That is the problem. Do you trust the experts about that – those who are men just like you, or do you trust God to speak to you?

It is not that I make God in my image. The question is who I trust to tell me who God is.

I trust the Church that He Himself established and the Holy Spirit who guides the Church to all holiness and the Bishops who He has given authority.

I would trust the Church before I would trust some guy from the 1800s who thought some really weird things.

I am Mormon.
We believe we can get direct revelation from God about what church is true
I have received that revelation

That is just plain wrong.

 

[emarc]

I learned long ago, that the Holy Spirit takes us from where we are to where He wants us to be… I think he knows that about all of us, and the path for each of us may differ…
But the way you get to the truth I think is different for almost everyone.

can’t disagree w/ you on this. God’s ways are not our ways. but i caution not to put God in the box. i meant that things that are impossible to us, nothing is impossible to Him. if everything could be explained to our satisfaction, the mystery is gone and so is the meaning of faith. the resurrection of our Lord is a great mystery, his presence is a great mystery and most Christians believe this, but can they explain it?
God bless.

 

[mfbukowski]

I am sorry to read that you ditched the Catholic Church for the “Mormon revelation.”

I do find it ironic that you dismiss the Early Church Fathers, of whom many were disciples of the Apostles themselves, which I had cited earlier, yet you accept the Book of Mormon.

I must admit I am curious where in the Bible it states that Jesus and Satan were brothers who both pitched different ideas of salvation to God, of which he selected Christ’s plan, which resulted in Satan becoming angry and being cast from Heaven with the end result, the Devil, and his legions of evil disciples?

I am also curious where it reads that their are 3 levels of Heaven in which the good Mormons who achieve the first level become mini-gods of their own universe or domain; that those assigned to the second level, the unperfected Mormons, must struggle to attain the higher level of Heaven; and the third level, which is reserved for heathens, of which I suppose that means Catholics (and from your earlier posts will also be inhabited by Southern Baptists and Free Will Baptists since they are not correct in their “path” either, as you determine the path to be).

I am also curious where it is explained in the Bible that God is one of many mini-gods, that our God was assigned dominion over Earth alone and that there are other gods out there who are assigned dominion over other worlds.

Now, again, please explain to me how this post…

…exempts you from claiming that you do not follow any authority except your own. The reality is that you have thrown your lot into believing the false teachings of the Mormon Church so you have also “abdicated that responsibility to those whom you determine are “experts.” What I find truly repulsive is that you come on this site not to learn about Catholicism, but to attack it and tear it down, which you cannot because you know the Catholic Church, with Apostolic lineage, can trace her roots to the time of Christ, and she is protected by Christ himself. You dismiss the Early Church Fathers, but it is the Early Church Fathers who served as martyrs for the Catholic faith and without them there would not exist the Bible, only multitudes of heretical sects preaching a false Gospel.

So, yes, you contribute to theological anarchy and I will add another: spiritual narcissism. You come on this site under false pretenses and I make no excuse of behaving less than charitably.

My goodness! And you think I am uncharitable? I have been on this site quite a while now. Following one’s conscience is contributing to spiritual anarchy huh?

You really don’t understand much about what we believe. If you are going to criticize beliefs, it would help to know what they are.

One of the reasons I left Catholicism was that I could never understand the eucharist. Never made a lick of sense to me. I am always trying to get that one answered, but I guess you don’t have the answers either.

Incidentally for the record, you don’t understand the Mormon doctrine of the celestial kingdom at all. It is perfectly likely that many Catholics according to Mormon theology could or will end up in the highest portion of the celestial kingdom above many Mormons. Many Mormons sealed in the temple even. And the lowest kingdoms of glory it is said, are so much like what you think of as “heaven” that if some could see what awaits all of us they might actually commit suicide to get there. Of course that would guarantee them the lowest level, but even the lowest level is a kingdom of glory far surpassing anything we understand.

You seemed like such a nice person too. Have a good day.

Oh incidentally, I discovered most of the tenets of Mormonism on my own and had these as personal beliefs before I found the one church that contained all I already believed.

I believed that we existed before we came to earth, that God loves us as a father, that we are here to be tested and be the best people we can be, that there are esoteric doctrines known only to the elect, that there is a spirit world in which our progression can continue and that it makes no sense that God gave us revelation in the past but suddenly stopped for no reason. There were other philosophical principles I believed but found nowhere else. That and the revelation I received is why I joined the church.

Oh and please don’t try to tell me what I believe about God. God is not a mini god. My personal relationship with God has only grown since I have been LDS. Same God I ever worshiped – transcendent eternal and ominipotent. That is the God we worship

 

[mfbukowski]

Do not expect any credible answer to this question from mfbukowski.

I only trust God to reveal himself to us. And why do you say such things about me when we have never met?

 

[mfbukowski]

I trust the Church that He Himself established and the Holy Spirit who guides the Church to all holiness and the Bishops who He has given authority.

So you trust the church above your own conscience?

It is amazing how we were having a civil discussion before I mentioned being Mormon. Why is that? Why has everything now changed?

 

[mfbukowski]

can’t disagree w/ you on this. God’s ways are not our ways. but i caution not to put God in the box. i meant that things that are impossible to us, nothing is impossible to Him. if everything could be explained to our satisfaction, the mystery is gone and so is the meaning of faith. the resurrection of our Lord is a great mystery, his presence is a great mystery and most Christians believe this, but can they explain it?
God bless.

How could anyone put God in a box? That’s like the story about – who ? Augustine? and the little boy on the beach. You might as well try to put the ocean in a little hole you dug as to put God in a box! God’s ways are not our ways, but everyone here seems to think that they know God’s ways are not my ways. Amazing how that works. “God is a mystery, but I know YOU are wrong”. How consistent is that?

I have never said anything on this thread against Catholicism- I was just questioning the doctrine of the eucharist. And yet you attack (not you personally emarc- thanks for your charity–) and yet you on this thread attack Mormonism.

I used to be anti-catholic at times too, but have given that up. I could dust off my old self, and give you all the hard time you are giving me, but I won’t.

Peace to all.

 

[ncgolf]

I only trust God to reveal himself to us. And why do you say such things about me when we have never met?

That does not answer the question … how does God reveal himself, in particular to you. What means do you use to recognize it is God revealing himself?

 

[wisdomseeker]

It’s really a question of trust. Do you trust the brain God gave you or do you abdicate that responsibility to “experts”? It is similar to conservatism or liberalism politically. Of course we don’t want to go there.

That is why I believe we can find the true church only by witness of the spirit-- God telling you which church is true.

and which is God telling is the True Church?

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

 

[mfbukowski]

That does not answer the question … how does God reveal himself, in particular to you. What means do you use to recognize it is God revealing himself?

The same way you know that Catholicsm is true.

God takes us where we are and leads us to where he wants us to be. I think that you could be directed to be Catholic and I could be directed to be Mormon because we are different people with different backgrounds and needs.

 

[Ronald_E]

The same way you know that Catholicsm is true.

God takes us where we are and leads us to where he wants us to be. I think that you could be directed to be Catholic and I could be directed to be Mormon because we are different people with different backgrounds and needs.

No matter what church we belong to we are always called to love our neighbor. The Mormons I know are the most humble people I know and I am blessed to know them. God is Love and we will be known by how we love one another. If there is hostility in theological discussions then we lose love.
I am not speaking directly to you mfb. I just put that here because I wanted to tell you that I will get back to you about the quantum physics connection to the Eucharist. I must go to work now. God Bless.

 

[mfbukowski]

. I just put that here because I wanted to tell you that I will get back to you about the quantum physics connection to the Eucharist. I must go to work now. God Bless.

Thanks. Sounds interesting.

 

[jim1130]

One of the reasons I left Catholicism was that I could never understand the eucharist. Never made a lick of sense to me. I am always trying to get that one answered, but I guess you don’t have the answers either.

It has been answered repeatedly and repeatedly there is plenty of supporting evidence in the Bible and in the Early Church Fathers. For whatever reason, you just choose not to see it.

 

[jim1130]

And you think I am uncharitable?

At least I admitted it in my post that I was uncharitable.

I have been on this site quite a while now. Following one’s conscience is contributing to spiritual anarchy huh?

One’s conscience? I thought you said you were following God’s plan? Which is it? Your conscience? Or God’s plan? you decided what was the truth and then said “this church fits MY beliefs.” Yes, spiritual anarchy. That is the basis of protestantism. I guess I should have said relativism.

You really don’t understand much about what we believe. If you are going to criticize beliefs, it would help to know what they are.

Jesus and Satan are not brothers? There are not 3 levels to heaven? When you die, you do not become God of your own domain. If you say so, but Catholicism is out there for public consumption whereas Mormonism is fairly secretive, which probalby explains why my aunt was not allowed to her own daughter’s wedding.

Incidentally for the record, you don’t understand the Mormon doctrine of the celestial kingdom at all. It is perfectly likely that many Catholics according to Mormon theology could or will end up in the highest portion of the celestial kingdom above many Mormons. Many Mormons sealed in the temple even. And the lowest kingdoms of glory it is said, are so much like what you think of as “heaven” that if some could see what awaits all of us they might actually commit suicide to get there. Of course that would guarantee them the lowest level, but even the lowest level is a kingdom of glory far surpassing anything we understand

You seemed like such a nice person too. Have a good day.

Who revealed these levels of Heaven to you?

Oh incidentally, I discovered most of the tenets of Mormonism on my own and had these as personal beliefs before I found the one church that contained all I already believed.

You decided the truth? This is the prime example of liberal Protestantism: Find the Chruch that supports YOUR beliefs. What is that church’s authority? Prove their lineage to the time of the Apostles.

I believed that we existed before we came to earth, that God loves us as a father, that we are here to be tested and be the best people we can be, that there are esoteric doctrines known only to the elect, that there is a spirit world in which our progression can continue and that it makes no sense that God gave us revelation in the past but suddenly stopped for no reason. There were other philosophical principles I believed but found nowhere else. That and the revelation I received is why I joined the church.

God did not “stop for no reason.” Revelation ended with the Apostles because it was fulfilled through the Son. Now, you probably believe that after the death of the last Apostle that a great apostacy hit the Church that caused it to disappear until the early 1800s; however, if you read the Early Church Fathers and early councils that would completely obliterate that position.

Oh and please don’t try to tell me what I believe about God. God is not a mini god. My personal relationship with God has only grown since I have been LDS. Same God I ever worshiped – transcendent eternal and ominipotent. That is the God we worship

You mean that if you die and land in the first level of Heavan you are not assigned as a god to your own earth? Yuo mean that God did not select a plan of salvation from Jesus rather than Satan?