Mother is denied Pill by Muslim pharmacist

[Liberalsaved]

If that’s true, then most Catholics are in a state of mortal sin. That’s sad.

They aren’t guidelines, any more than not killing or not stealing could be considered guidelines. Christ said “go and sin no more” not “I recommend you don’t do the following things.”

People here have often shot down things said because they weren’t supported by The Bible. But the Bible says nothing about contraception. In this case, you are relying on the say-so of a Pope. Unless I am mistaken, important as The Pope is, he is not God.

If we’re going to add our own interpretations of Biblical law to the list of sins, can we go further? The Bible tells us to be obedient to our parents, but today many parents are absent, abusive, or unfit. Are we still to be obedient to those parents? Our modern system of adoption was non-existant in Biblical times. If a biological parent comes to an adopted-at-birth child after, say, 15 years, does that child then belong to that parent again?

 

[james1441]

I was commenting on your offensive signature, regocnizing that you did not have the wit to coin it yourself, borrowing it from a larger mind. But you obviously subscribe to it’s purile philosophy. I am neither an idiot nor an ape. You sir, are an arrogant twit and need to develop a little respect. Please read my objection again and see if you can glimpse my meaning.

i realize quite well you were commenting on my signature, and if you will notice the signature is a warning against evil disguised as good. yet if you still disagree with that explanation than that shows that you have fallen for a trap that the pagan romans did, which is to fuse an unholy alliance of religon and state into a frankenstein creature which destroys everything in its path in the name of god, which like hannibal lecter and his prison escape plot wears a mask of something good while hiding darkness underneath

 

[james1441]

People here have often shot down things said because they weren’t supported by The Bible. But the Bible says nothing about contraception. In this case, you are relying on the say-so of a Pope. Unless I am mistaken, important as The Pope is, he is not God.

If we’re going to add our own interpretations of Biblical law to the list of sins, can we go further? The Bible tells us to be obedient to our parents, but today many parents are absent, abusive, or unfit. Are we still to be obedient to those parents? Our modern system of adoption was non-existant in Biblical times. If a biological parent comes to an adopted-at-birth child after, say, 15 years, does that child then belong to that parent again?

even if the church allowed artificial contraception, i dont see any reason why you would even want to use those when you have better method like NFP at your disposal. and yes the bible doesnt say anything about contraception, but there are many other things it doesnt mention either. so either these things are taken care of by careful consideration of the church, or they are left to our consideration. consider in this day and age that we will soon have the possibility of putting human brain cells in mice, fusing animal and human dna and even the possibility of a human male giving birth to a cat!! these are definitely things people never dreamed of in the past and no doubt the church will have to tackle these issues in the future.

 

[rlg94086]

People here have often shot down things said because they weren’t supported by The Bible. But the Bible says nothing about contraception. In this case, you are relying on the say-so of a Pope. Unless I am mistaken, important as The Pope is, he is not God.

No one is saying that the Pope is God. That said, the Bible is not our only source for teaching…that’s even according to the Bible btw. It took me a lot of reading and discernment to understand the Church 's teaching on birth control, so I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind through a few posts on a forum. Here is a link for a start… catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

Liberalsaved:

If we’re going to add our own interpretations of Biblical law to the list of sins, can we go further? The Bible tells us to be obedient to our parents, but today many parents are absent, abusive, or unfit. Are we still to be obedient to those parents? Our modern system of adoption was non-existant in Biblical times. If a biological parent comes to an adopted-at-birth child after, say, 15 years, does that child then belong to that parent again?

We are not able to add our own interpretations of Biblical law to the list of sins…neither can the Magesterium. The Church only reemphasizes or clarifies accepted beliefs. This is why, much to the chagrin of some Catholics, the Church can not change the sinfulness of birth control, divorce, women priests, etc. okay.

There were adopted children well before Jesus’ time, so your point here is not logical. Our modern system does not change the requirement to be obedient to your parents (it would apply to your adopted parents). There were also absent, abusive and unfit parents throughout history.

God bless,

Robert

 

[Liberalsaved]

even if the church allowed artificial contraception, i dont see any reason why you would even want to use those when you have better method like NFP at your disposal. and yes the bible doesnt say anything about contraception, but there are many other things it doesnt mention either. so either these things are taken care of by careful consideration of the church, or they are left to our consideration. consider in this day and age that we will soon have the possibility of putting human brain cells in mice, fusing animal and human dna and even the possibility of a human male giving birth to a cat!! these are definitely things people never dreamed of in the past and no doubt the church will have to tackle these issues in the future.

It seems to me the Church’s position these days on nearly any advancement is to decry it as sinful. I have to wonder where medical science would be if sceintists did research according to Chruch teachings. What would be the strategy with AIDs…be good little boys and girls and denounce homosexuality and it will go away? On family planning? Would we still be advising that large families are best because it’s the will of God? I’d imagine we’d have a lot less free land if we did. I’d imagine we wouldn’t have condoms, and that as a result the rate of STDs would be astounding. Even outside of condoms, I imagine we’d teach kids abstinence, and gloss over any teachings on safe sex, if we mentioned it at all. Because of course, it has been shown that if you slap a hormones-raging 17-year-old on the hand and say “No! Bad teenager”, they won’t have sex.

We roll out traditional values as the solution to pretty much all of the world’s problems. If only it were that simple, I rather think we wouldn’t have any problems. Tradition has been abandoned on select problems over the course of history for a very simple reason; it has been shown not to work. Ultimately, people have taken to wielding tradition like a knife in the body of the world; they use it to cut out any changes they see and feel threatened by. It’s become hijacked, losing the original connotation of respect for things that work, and being force-fed a new meaning; making everything stay the same.

Of course, I’m going to be accused of a lot of things for posting this. But it’s a simple fact; there is not one solution to all problems, because we were given minds with the intention of using them. Just because we solve problems here on Earth in ways that surpass diving to our knees and imploring God, doesn’t mean those ways are always evil. I for one cannot conceive of a God who would create something as complex as the human mind, and then expect us to resist all changes it may create.

 

[Liberalsaved]

No one is saying that the Pope is God. That said, the Bible is not our only source for teaching…that’s even according to the Bible btw. It took me a lot of reading and discernment to understand the Church 's teaching on birth control, so I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind through a few posts on a forum. Here is a link for a start… catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

We are not able to add our own interpretations of Biblical law to the list of sins…neither can the Magesterium. The Church only reemphasizes or clarifies accepted beliefs. This is why, much to the chagrin of some Catholics, the Church can not change the sinfulness of birth control, divorce, women priests, etc. okay.

There were adopted children well before Jesus’ time, so your point here is not logical. Our modern system does not change the requirement to be obedient to your parents (it would apply to your adopted parents). There were also absent, abusive and unfit parents throughout history.

God bless,

Robert

I have only this to add; children given over to learn a trade, or for some other specific arrangement, is not adoption as we use it. I recall no stories resembling modern adoption. Those that do almost always involve capture, arranged marriage or trading of humans.

 

[james1441]

i cant answer all your questions, but as far as the church and science in general, usually in the past the church was at the forefront of science, an excellent book on this is How the church built western civilization by thomas woods jr.

 

[Liberalsaved]

i cant answer all your questions, but as far as the church and science in general, usually in the past the church was at the forefront of science, an excellent book on this is How the church built western civilization by thomas woods jr.

I’m fairly well-versed in Church history, and am aware of thier contributions, though they were not always as close to the fore-front as you paint them; Galileo could correct you there. It is my lament that the leaders of the modern Church are not as wise as their predecessors.

 

[a_cermak]

even if the church allowed artificial contraception, i dont see any reason why you would even want to use those when you have better method like NFP at your disposal. and yes the bible doesnt say anything about contraception, but there are many other things it doesnt mention either. so either these things are taken care of by careful consideration of the church, or they are left to our consideration. consider in this day and age that we will soon have the possibility of putting human brain cells in mice, fusing animal and human dna and even the possibility of a human male giving birth to a cat!! these are definitely things people never dreamed of in the past and no doubt the church will have to tackle these issues in the future.

While I think NFP is great, and if I needed to space births I would use it (I’m naturally infertile–my Johanna Rose is a true miracle baby) because I don’t like the chemicals and synthetic hormones of ABC. However, I do not think this decision should be forced on anyone else. Certainly a pharmacy that sells the stuff should not be able to pick and choose to whom they will sell it and if a pharmacist won’t dispense due to conscience, then another pharmacist should be on hand to serve the customer or the pharmacist who won’t serve should at least be willing to return the script and refer to another pharmacy at the least.

You really can’t beat the easiness of Depo Provera (one shot every 3 mos) or some of the newer ones coming out. And MAP has to be considered a real advancement for women who get carried away and forget their pill or for whom the condom breaks or was not used properly.

 

[bones_IV]

They. don’t. even. exist. Just because a couple is thinking about having children, doesn’t give those possible future children a voice yet if they do not even exist in any way. I’m sorry, but that falls into the realm of fanaticism in the face of common sense. It’s one thing to argue that killing a developing baby is murder. It’s another thing to argue that a baby that HAS NOT EVEN BEEN CONCEIVED has rights. It’s not even an existant person. Where do we go from there? If you kill a woman you’re convicted of two counts of murder, just in case she ever had a kid? What if you stop early? Did you kill the child by not completing copulation?

Shows how little you know about the dignity of human life. Your overweening self confidence is your weekness and this a form of pride that will destroy you. In James 4:14 we are told that people who are totally caught up in their own business affairs make this more important than God. Thanks for insulting the holy scriptures and my prolife stance.

 

[bones_IV]

People here have often shot down things said because they weren’t supported by The Bible. But the Bible says nothing about contraception. In this case, you are relying on the say-so of a Pope. Unless I am mistaken, important as The Pope is, he is not God.

If we’re going to add our own interpretations of Biblical law to the list of sins, can we go further? The Bible tells us to be obedient to our parents, but today many parents are absent, abusive, or unfit. Are we still to be obedient to those parents? Our modern system of adoption was non-existant in Biblical times. If a biological parent comes to an adopted-at-birth child after, say, 15 years, does that child then belong to that parent again?

Under whose authority do you say that we are reinterpreting the bible and adding on to biblical law? Where do we say that pope is God? Another question is where in the bible does it say we are allowed to contracept? Last time I checked in the Old Jewish Law you were put to death for spilling seed! What you are proposing is a fallacy.

 

[bones_IV]

i realize quite well you were commenting on my signature, and if you will notice the signature is a warning against evil disguised as good. yet if you still disagree with that explanation than that shows that you have fallen for a trap that the pagan romans did, which is to fuse an unholy alliance of religon and state into a frankenstein creature which destroys everything in its path in the name of god, which like hannibal lecter and his prison escape plot wears a mask of something good while hiding darkness underneath

So you say that outlawing abortion is fusing religion and state into a frankenstein creature? You gotta be kidding me. You are definately off in left field my friend.

From Dues Caritas Est

28 In order to define more accurately the relationship between the necessary commitment to justice and the ministry or charity, two fundamental situations need to be considered:

a) **The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. *As Augustine once said, a State which is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves: “Remota itaque iustitia quid sunt regna nisi magna latrocinia?”.[18] Fundamental to Christianity is the distinction between what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God (cf. Mt *22:21), in other words, the distinction between Church and State, or, as the Second Vatican Council puts it, the autonomy of the temporal sphere.[19] The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.

Justice is both the aim and the intrinsic criterion of all politics. Politics is more than a mere mechanism for defining the rules of public life: its origin and its goal are found in justice, which by its very nature has to do with ethics. The State must inevitably face the question of how justice can be achieved here and now. But this presupposes an even more radical question: what is justice? The problem is one of practical reason; but if reason is to be exercised properly, it must undergo constant purification, since it can never be completely free of the danger of a certain ethical blindness caused by the dazzling effect of power and special interests.

**Here politics and faith meet. **Faith by its specific nature is an encounter with the living God—an encounter opening up new horizons extending beyond the sphere of reason. But it is also a purifying force for reason itself. From God’s standpoint, faith liberates reason from its blind spots and therefore helps it to be ever more fully itself. Faith enables reason to do its work more effectively and to see its proper object more clearly. This is where Catholic social doctrine has its place: it has no intention of giving the Church power over the State. Even less is it an attempt to impose on those who do not share the faith ways of thinking and modes of conduct proper to faith. Its aim is simply to help purify reason and to contribute, here and now, to the acknowledgment and attainment of what is just.

 

[bones_IV]

yes the bible doesnt say anything about contraception, but there are many other things it doesnt mention either. so either these things are taken care of by careful consideration of the church, or they are left to our consideration.

Only in your imagination.

 

[rlg94086]

When a father died, the children (and wife) would usually be the responsibility of the father’s brother. That would be adoption.

I have only this to add; children given over to learn a trade, or for some other specific arrangement, is not adoption as we use it. I recall no stories resembling modern adoption. Those that do almost always involve capture, arranged marriage or trading of humans.

 

[hasikelee]

You, guys, cool it! Take a deep breath, get a drink of water!

There are a lot of faulty statements and poorly made posts on this thread, from all sides!

Jumping into the fray without charity is just as bad as arguing with fallacies. What a poor representation of our Catholic faith!

I refer friends and acquaintances here who are just babies in the learning process of natural and spiritual law. I would be mortified, if after all my careful, charitable discussion with them, they came on this thread and saw this mess. They have a seed planted by the grace of God to learn more about right and wrong. And the words on this thread would exterminate that seed.



The arguments presented for abortion are riddled with inconsistencies, lies, fallacies and ideaology long proven wrong. Let your light shine to show this; don’t give others any reason to ignore everyone!

 

[rlg94086]

As I said in a previous post, it took me a lot of reading, listening and understanding before my conscience was well informed of the reasons and justifications for the Church’s teaching on life issues (less so on abortion, but more so on contraception).

“You’re wrong, and here’s a place to check out the truth” is a better approach than “you’re wrong you stupid, idiot and btw you are going to hell for your sins!”

You, guys, cool it! Take a deep breath, get a drink of water!

There are a lot of faulty statements and poorly made posts on this thread, from all sides!

Jumping into the fray without charity is just as bad as arguing with fallacies. What a poor representation of our Catholic faith!

I refer friends and acquaintances here who are just babies in the learning process of natural and spiritual law. I would be mortified, if after all my careful, charitable discussion with them, they came on this thread and saw this mess. They have a seed planted by the grace of God to learn more about right and wrong. And the words on this thread would exterminate that seed.



The arguments presented for abortion are riddled with inconsistencies, lies, fallacies and ideaology long proven wrong. Let your light shine to show this; don’t give others any reason to ignore everyone!

 

[Wendy-Kay]

People here have often shot down things said because they weren’t supported by The Bible. But the Bible says nothing about contraception. In this case, you are relying on the say-so of a Pope. Unless I am mistaken, important as The Pope is, he is not God.
QUOTE]

The say-so of a pope??!!! This is the teachings of the magisterium. This is the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Contraception is clearly condemed by scripture many times. Maybe we should start another thread.

 

[Robert_Bay]

**General Reminder:

**The charity level of this discussion appears to be deteriorating. Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

 

[Liberalsaved]

Liberalsaved;1582168:

People here have often shot down things said because they weren’t supported by The Bible. But the Bible says nothing about contraception. In this case, you are relying on the say-so of a Pope. Unless I am mistaken, important as The Pope is, he is not God.
QUOTE]

The say-so of a pope??!!! This is the teachings of the magisterium. This is the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Contraception is clearly condemed by scripture many times. Maybe we should start another thread.

I’ll just say it; I’m not going to base my conception of what God wants us to do on the say-so of someone who claims they are the voice of God. I see nothing in history to support that the last several centuries of Popes have any connection to, or any right to, the authority of Peter. I look at the political backstabbings and dirty dealings that governed many of the reigns of later Popes, and I wonder if Peter would care about such petty things.

The Apostles were wise men and a person could do much worse than to heed their knowledge. After all, they actually paid attention to the teachings of Jesus. Unfortunately, their like is not in the world anymore. Human thinking in general has dwindled, and I am dismayed in seeing the things that the names of all sorts of wise and great men from millenia past are used for. I don’t think Jesus would have insulted the whole of Islam on the basis of the actions of a part, or supported war in any form. Yet here we have a Church that does or has done both those things.

So there you have it. I do not beleive our modern Popes are a shadow of the former wisdom of the office. It seemed I could not be a Catholic unless I blindly followed the every whim of an office greatly dimmed from the greatness of its own past. So I stopped being a Catholic. Which, I’m sure, makes my opinion invalid despite the fact that I formed it while still Catholic.

 

[gilliam]

I’ll just say it; I’m not going to base my conception of what God wants us to do on the say-so of someone who claims they are the voice of God. .

For Catholics, the Magistarium is one of the voices of God. Do you say you deny that because they disagree with you, or you deny that out of principle?