Mother Mary

[twopekinguys]

What is it with you?? I told you what I witnessed for years and you are calling me a liar. How much more in denail can a person be? Bowing to statues, crawling around for hours crying and petitioning Mary for special favors while ignoring Christ is the ultimate display of idolotry.

Did I call you a liar? No, so that statement is totally uncalled for.

I am merely pointing out the inconsistencies in what you are presenting. It is called discussion. It is also called rebuttal.

Do you think you can come in here and make these statements and not have anyone question them, or disagree with them?

Sorry, that isn’t how it works, but nice try.

Again, did you ask these people if they were worshipping the statue, or worshiping Mary, or is this your assumption?

 

[twopekinguys]

Thanks Jharek

 

[Vile_Servant]

for hours praying the Rosary

what is idolatrous about praying the rosary?

 

[cruisin]

http://bestsmileys.com/textinbubble1/15.gif

[bibledrb] Luke 1:28[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Luke 1:39-45[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Ephesians 6:2[/bibledrb]

:tsktsk:
Did nobody ever teach you, when you were growing up, that you should never take names to yourself? Because someday, somebody is going to take you at your word???:coffeeread:

LOL: you really don’t get it do you. I am criticizing the Catholics on the board who think because they are Catholic that they automatically have all the right answers. sorry. 2000 years of Tradition doesn’t prove that much to me, although I agree it has merit. the Jews had 2000 years of Tradition as well, thought they had it right, totally missed the Messiah and crucified Him. But, that was the plan wasn’t it?

Jesus comment to Nicodemus is telling. Joh 3:10 And Jesus, answering, said, Are you the teacher of Israel and have no knowledge of these things? To make the claim that a Teacher is unable to make a an error is a stretch.

http://bestsmileys.com/movingeyes/4.gif :doh2::dts:

Someone thinks I don’t understandeth.

I didn’t say you couldn’t pray to anyone you wanted, including Mary. I just say that there is no evidence for it. I noticed most Catholics on these boards, when someone disagrees with them gets rather irate.

I have been reading these boards for a long time. Catholics post and re-post the verses you have above. To get queen of Heaven out of them is far reaching to me.

I Have taken into account the evidence from both sides. so far I disagree with your evidence.

I won’t waist your time with my evidence. I am sure you have heard it all from the protestants on these boards. this is why I say we must agree to disagree.

 

[Dorothy]

I do not bow to my mother and ask for things that only God can grant. That’s the big difference.

I have knelt before a statue of Mary, and that does not mean I am an idolater.

All the grace that Mary has comes from the fullness of the Trinity that shines through her. Of herself, she is nothing,…she is like a clear pane of glass that allows the Trinity to shine through her. She is nothing by herself, and knows it. That is true humility.

So, when you see people kneel before a statue of Mary they are honoring what the Lord has done for her, they definitely are not putting her before Jesus.

Here are some statements from Protestant reformers on Mary:

Martin Luther: “In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them…Not only was Mary the mother of Him who is born (in Bethlehem) but of Him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God.” (Weimer, The Works of Luther, by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v 7 p. 572)

John Calvin: “It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of His Son, granted her the highest honor…Elizabeth calls Mary Mother of the Lord because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God.” (Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorium, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348,35.)

And, there are more quotes from these men that I have, on her perpetual virginity.

 

[cruisin]

First of all, you better check your sources. I did not call you a chauvanist, and I don’t particullary like being accused of something I did not do or say.

I’ll help you out on this. See post #26, which you quoted in post 54.

So please explain this statement. The implied person sounded like me, since it was my thoughts and comments that you where railing against.from post #26 “And this sound chauvinistic ( sp?) to me”

No double standard, but you are right when you say “what do I know. I’m not Catholic”. And do you not get that I am making fun of the preconceived notion that Catholics have it right and protestants are wrong because they disagree with you. LOL You are demonstrating that you have a preconceived notion, and you are not willing to change, even with proof. You are obviously blind to that fact that we all have preconceived notions, weather we admitted or not, based on personal world view.

I am glad the evidence is good enough for you, it is not for me.
What brought you to the conclusion that I am unwilling to change. Because I disagreed with you?

I will await your apology.

I will as soon as you explain the above statement, and explain how I am in error.

The reason I use the term “agree to disagree” is because we are evidently at odds with each other on this topic, and I’m OK with that.

 

[twopekinguys]

Originally Posted by twopekinguys
First of all, you better check your sources. I did not call you a chauvanist, and I don’t particullary like being accused of something I did not do or say.

I’ll help you out on this. See post #26, which you quoted in post 54.

So please explain this statement. The implied person sounded like me, since it was my thoughts and comments that you where railing against.from post #26 “And this sound chauvinistic ( sp?) to me”

If you had read what I posted, I wouldn’t have to explain it to you, but here we go. If you will go to your post # 57, you will see that you stated that you posted :

twopekinguys original quote:
And this sound chauvinistic ( sp?) to me

At no time did I post this. That statement was in post #26. If you will now look at post #26, you will see that we are not the ones that posted it. I did not in anyway call you chauvanistic as you tried to portray in your post. That is extremely dishonest.

Not really hard to figure out now was it?

Originally Posted by twopekinguys
No double standard, but you are right when you say “what do I know. I’m not Catholic”. And do you not get that I am making fun of the preconceived notion that Catholics have it right. LOL

Oh, we understand what you are doing. It is neither appropriate or humourous. What you are saying is that for 2000 years, the Church has gotten it wrong, and somehow, suddenly in the 21st Century, some anonymous poster on a internet forum has suddenly gotten it right?

You are demonstrating that you have a preconceived notion, and you are not willing to change, even with proof.

You are obviously blind to that fact that we all have preconceived notions, weather we admitted or not, based on personal world view.

Many of the preconceived notions people have are based on misinformation and lies. I am actually a convert to the Catholic Church. I held many of the same views that you appear to hold. Once I started investigating, learning, and praying, it became obvious to me (and many others) that the Church has gotten it right.

I am glad the evidence is good enough for you, it is not for me. What brought you toe the conclusion that I am unwilling to change. Because I disagreed with you?

It is obvious at this point because of your repeated use of wanting to agree to disagree. You are basically saying, fine, you answered, but I don’t believe it.

I will await your apology.
I will as soon as you explain the above statement, and explain how I am in error.

I believe I have done so, if you will see the explaination at the top of this post.

 

[twopekinguys]

I have found that some posters will use this when they cannot answer the evidence that has been presented to them.

It’s kind of like they are saying “Ok, you got me, but I’m not going to admit it”.

 

[cruisin]

the term " to agree to disagree" to me all it means is that there is disagreement on the subject and I’m ok with that. I can walk away and still be friends. If you said 1+1=2 and I said 1+1=23 I would agree with your relativist statement. But the subject of Mary pertaining to this board, Is not that cut and dried to me. Maybe it is to you.

I don’t think I called anyone an Idol worshiper? If I did or was perceived, that was not my intent. Can you show me in one of my post where that is the case?
I know it gets difficult, because I have the same problem sometimes, but please do not read others posts into mine. and I will try hard not to do it as well. I think this may be some of what is going on.

MY intentions are not to disrespect anybody, but on the flip side when I read many post from both sides of the aisle, I see disrespect in how posters handle disagreement within what they type. The question remains is it perception, when the writer has no intent or is it real?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Proallen,

I see that you are new to the forums, having joined just two days ago. So, welcome!

Many Protestants hit the forums with “guns blazing” eager to show Catholics the “error of their ways.” I had a bit of an attitude, myself, when I first came to the forums. That attitude was duly adjusted over time. I learned a great deal about Christian charity from the Catholics on these forums.

Ask questions, debate issues, state your beliefs, agree, disagree. The forums are designed for this. However, I would urge you to, at least, consider what others have to say. You don’t have to agree.

Keep in mind that most people will give your posts greater consideration, if you post with Christian charity and respect–which will not diminish the passion of your beliefs.

Christ called us to love one another. It is easy to forget that, when discussing the issues. I know, because I have had to go back and apologize to people a number of times. And I’m sure there were apologies due, that I never gave.

Just a few words of “unsolicited advise.”

In Christ,
Anna

I understand and I thank you for you advise. However, Scripture can never be diminished in the light of anything, whatever or whoever it may be. In this particular instance, this is exactly what is at hand.

Proallen,

You missed my point entirely. I didn’t ask you to diminish Scripture or to compromise your beliefs in any way. The problem is the offensive tone of your posts, and your utter disregard for anything Catholics have to say about the Blessed Virgin Mary.

There is a huge difference between veneration and adoration. I many not ask for help from the Blessed Virgin Mary; but I do respect the Catholic viewpoint. Mary found favor with God, unlike any other human being. Yet, many Protestant Churches disregard her entirely. Protestants teach from the writings of St. Paul, and even refer to his teachings as “Pauline Christianity.” Paul is elevated, and the Blessed Virgin Mary is disregarded entirely. This makes absolutely no sense.

I urge you to prayerfully consider the way you are expressing your views. Speaking with Christian charity and respect does not diminish or lessen one’s beliefs. It merely demonstrates that the love of Christ is visible in one’s life. Without that, why should anyone listen?

Anna

 

[twopekinguys]

Originally Posted by cruisin
Originally Posted by twopekinguys
I am not sure how, or why you have brought fear into this.

It has absolutely nothing to do with fear, My point was that I have read many posts from catholics here on this board who pray to Mary and the saints because they are afraid to go to God directly. This is not what God wants or what the apostles taught.it has to do with getting a desired response to a request. so your intention is to manipulate God for selfish reasons?

That’s funny. In all the threads I have read, and been involved in, I have never run across a single post where a Catholic has stated they are afraid to pray to God directly. If you are going to make such a claim, you need to provide a link to a post or thread. Otherwise, you are merely grasping at straws with this, and it definitely lessens what credibility you might have

Since I posted this response, I did a search of CAF, for “afraid to pray”, and “scared to pray”. Funny, I couldn’t find a single post to substantiate your statement. I look forward to you providing a link.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Did I call you a liar? No, so that statement is totally uncalled for.

I am merely pointing out the inconsistencies in what you are presenting. It is called discussion. It is also called rebuttal.

Do you think you can come in here and make these statements and not have anyone question them, or disagree with them?

Sorry, that isn’t how it works, but nice try.

Again, did you ask these people if they were worshipping the statue, or worshiping Mary, or is this your assumption?

NO This is your assumption not her you are the one saying it so please back it up

 

[twopekinguys]

NO This is your assumption not her you are the one saying it so please back it up

Bill,

Did you mean this to be for proallen, or me?

Try not to confuse me so early in the morning, I’m old…

 

[cruisin]

If you had read what I posted, I wouldn’t have to explain it to you, but here we go. If you will go to your post # 57, you will see that you stated that you posted :

At no time did I post this. That statement was in post #26. If you will now look at post #26, you will see that we are not the ones that posted it. I did not in anyway call you chauvanistic as you tried to portray in your post. That is extremely dishonest. see below

Not really hard to figure out now was it?

maybe, but a different more respectiful approach would have been appreciated. I am human and fallable you know.

Oh, we understand what you are doing. It is neither appropriate or humourous. What you are saying is that for 2000 years, the Church has gotten it wrong, and somehow, suddenly in the 21st Century, some anonymous poster on a internet forum has suddenly gotten it right?

Oh come please, this sounds so 4th grade school yard. There has been disagreement around since the church began. If there wasn’t there would have never been a need for any council.

Many of the preconceived notions people have are based on misinformation and lies. I am actually a convert to the Catholic Church. I held many of the same views that you appear to hold. Once I started investigating, learning, and praying, it became obvious to me (and many others) that the Church has gotten it right.
And I know many Catholic to protestant converts based on their investigations. I am glad you found your calling.

It is obvious at this point because of your repeated use of wanting to agree to disagree. You are basically saying, fine, you answered, but I don’t believe it.

why do you have a problem with this? Just because you answered I should agree it?

I believe I have done so, if you will see the explaination at the top of this post.

oops me totally bad… I am definately not paying attention. that was someone else

I apologize.

 

[twopekinguys]

oops me totally bad… I am definately not paying attention. that was someone else

I apologize.

Apology accepted. It’s all good.

 

[KathleenGee]

I see that concerns about our Blessed Mother are on threads today.

I also came across this new book written by a former Episcopalian, “Discovering Mary”, written by David Mills. It ‘answers questions about the Mother of God… with a rock solid
solid introduction, …intellectual vigor and affable tone.’

From earliest times, Christians venerated Mary. I don’t think peoples of a public church would look on Christ’s mother as just another woman…however blessed…

 

[twopekinguys]

What is it with you?? I told you what I witnessed for years and you are calling me a liar. How much more in denail can a person be? Bowing to statues, crawling around for hours crying and petitioning Mary for special favors while ignoring Christ is the ultimate display of idolotry.

I also have to wonder why you waited until your 13th post on this thread to disclose that at one time you were a “devout Catholic”.

That, along with comments you have made such as:

What does the Catechism say regarding Mary? Isn’t that a required adherance to be Catholic?

So then, I would be permitted as a Catholic to clearly refute language in the Catechism without reproach. That was the point and I already know the answer to the question. You are wrong about being only required to adhere to some of the Marian dogmas and not every one of them.

So then you don’t have to profess anything to become Catholic??

So then I could be Catholic and NEVER proclaim or believe that Mary was assumed into Heaven body and spirit and NEVER believe that she was immaculately conceived??

I’m sorry, but I am having trouble understanding how you could have been a “devout Catholic”, and not know the answers to these things.

I look forward to your answer.

 

[twopekinguys]

End of life issues are a tricky thing.

People in the medical profession are required to do everything in their power to save a life. Unfortuntely, that can involve some pretty invasive things. Respirators, IV’s, surgeries, etc. etc.

Health care directives have been developed over the years to make sure your wishes are followed. Especially in cases of Healthcare power of attorney’s.

Health care power of attorny’s are more restrictive in their administration. Mine gives the power to an individual in my family to make the decisions, but it also clearly indicates what my wishes are.

Many people don’t believe in all of the surgeries, medications and gizmos that will only delay the inevitable.(I am one of them) Some people believe that enough is enough, and look for a natural death.

Look at the case of Karen Ann Quinlan of New Jersey. She was in a persistant vegatative state for years, and had no chance of recovery. Her parents fought in court to have the respirator removed because it was keeping her alive. Well, lo and behold, they won, but Karen Ann continued to breathe on her own, for several years. She ultimately died of pneumonia, I believe. A natural death. Before her case went to court, she could have/would have been on that respirator alot longer, only to delay the inevitable.

Then you have all of the court cases that finally decided that if a person is “brain dead”, are they actually “dead”, and only being kept alive by the machines. It happens alot with transplant donors.

Not all healthcare decisions surrounding end of life issues are cut and dried. Alot of the decisions also do not revolve around food and water issues either.

I held my mother’s healthcare power of attorney, and had to discontinue her medical treatment. On Christmas Eve no less. While she was still receiving fluids via IV, she was unconcious and did not require food, due to her inability to digest. Basically, what we did was stop all the medications. She passed 2 days later, very quietly and peacefully.

If end of life issues are handled with Love,compassion, and reason, it is hard to make the wrong choice.

 

[Lapey]

I also have to wonder why you waited until your 13th post on this thread to disclose that at one time you were a “devout Catholic”.

That, along with comments you have made such as:

I’m sorry, but I am having trouble understanding how you could have been a “devout Catholic”, and not know the answers to these things.

I look forward to your answer.

I question his understanding of the word “devout” as well. He may have been a Catholic but a devout Catholic would not be here spewing untruths, he would know the teachings of the Church better.

 

[Lapey]

Catholic who actually know and practice the CF, reverence Mary and Worship God alone.

It’s not what you say, but what you do as a church. In my years as a devout practicing Catholic, I witnessed folks bowing to statues of Mary for hours on end asking her, petitioning her for special favors and praying to her. Crawling around on their hands and knees for hours praying the Rosary again petitioning her for special favors while never giving any reverance to Christ. I’ve seen the idolotry, the Mary worship and all of the things that Scripture teaches us are wrong regarding idols (hence Exodus 32 The Golden Calf). The Catholic church teaches that only God is to be worshipped, but we see something different that we see ONLY in Catholic churches regarding Mary. This is problematic and even moreso it is destructive.

There is another section of the book of Exodus that explains in fine detail the building of statues of several different beings to be located in the “Holy of Holies”. so are you telling me that God gave instructions to the Israelites to worship idols, or is the word of God in error?

See that’s the problem with taking certain verses to prove your point, you miss what the true meaning of the entire Living Word of God says.

I truly doubt that you witnessed exactly what you think you witnessed. All of us Catholics have mentioned already that there are many who “go too far” with devotions. This is not the Church’s doing, it is the Church’s lack of doing, not enough catechesis.

Now if we can concede this point we can move on, but to keep restating anecdotal statements which we have already conceded and attribute them to the Church as a whole, then we are at an impasse. What’s the point of continuing?