mother of God question?

[Huguenot]

mercygate:

To my knowledge, no English translation uses “and” or “in.” I have seen “from.” In Latin it is “de” (of) the Holy Spirit “ex” (out of or from) the Virgin Mary. This is not an area in which I have sufficient competence to offer a decent discussion or explanation.

I don’t have the necessary competence either, it was just a spontaneous reaction ; moreover, since English is not my native language, it is difficult for me to go into details when we discuss things for which each word is important…

 

[mercygate]

Huguenot:

I don’t have the necessary competence either, it was just a spontaneous reaction ; moreover, since English is not my native language, it is difficult for me to go into details when we discuss things for which each word is important…

D’accord!

 

[Mickey]

°°°°I have some problems with it, I agree with some parts, I don’t know if I can say I have “many” problems …

Well, at least four–that’s significant considering it is a statement accepted universally by the Christian world to counter nagging heresies.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Huguenot:

I don’t have the necessary competence either, it was just a spontaneous reaction ; moreover, since English is not my native language, it is difficult for me to go into details when we discuss things for which each word is important…

Huguenot

You are doing wonderful, Mercygate you asked earlier for me to repeat the question. No need to, Huguenot you are stating it just fine. In fact its better as I am not familiar with all these types of names of different groups.

I like the Nicene creed as it states a good core for what a person needs to believe, and is useful in conversations with people who rightfully say “oh God, what God, which God, theres nothing consistant” So that creed is a great starting point.

Also from recent reading of apologitics of the Bible and historical accuracy, the Nicene is supposed to be the first and shows early Christians believed in the deity of Christ. Thats another thread. because while we debate certain bits around, there is a whole world out there that isnt even on step one that there is God, and some dont even believe Christ was there.

 

[Rustyxcv]

Ma chere, Huguenotte, mes regrets pour avoir vous “il-toyez”!
Ah, the delightful little tangles we get into when we try to express incomprehensible transcendant mysteries with our crude earthbound language. you and Kitty Chan were talking earlier about the “bridge to God.” Careful! The Holy spirit is not a bridge to God . . . the Holy Spirit IS God. One could speak about anything or anyone that makes it easier for us to reach God as a bridge to God. So the Holy Bible, your local church fellowship, a well-preached sermon, or even the Blessed Virgin Mary could all be bridges to God.
I have always liked the way that Mary’s role was expressed in this little story [again, pious souls PLEASE do forgive for the apparent irreverence]:
One day Jesus came down to the front square of Heaven and noticed that there were all sorts of unsavory characters dancing about, strumming harps, and chanting psalms. He called Peter over and scolded him, “Peter, I’ve put you in charge of the Gates of Heaven, and here I find the place full of liars, thieves, prostitutes, murderers, and such like! What’s going on?” Peter sheepishly bows his head and replies, “Begging your pardon, mi’Lord, but it’s your Mother. You see, I turn them away at the front and then She goes and lets them in through the kitchen door!”
Again, perhaps part of the problem is in the language. In the strictest sense, we do not pray TO Mary, but rather we pray WITH Mary. We ask her, as a favor, to pray WITH us. We pray TO God, pray to the Father, pray to Jesus. We rarely pray specifically TO the Holy Spirit, because it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we can pray at all or have any kind of intentions toward holy things. So, to be praying at all is already to be immersed in the Holy Spirit and under His influence and guidance.
The difference between Catholic prayer and Protestant prayer is perhaps more one of flavor than one of substance. I spent many years, myself, worshipping in evangelical churches. Speaking from my own experience, praying in Protestant worship or at home during that period, I was very much aware of God and of me, as an individual. Praying as a Catholic, whether in church or at home, I am always much more aware that I am not praying alone, much more aware that everyone in the Church (living & departed from this world) is praying right along with me, and my awareness of God is fuller and broader, it “has more flesh on it” somehow. Including Mary and all the other saints in my prayers, enhances this experience of feeling that all of God’s children are praying with me for the salvation of the whole world.
Remembering that Mary is the mother of God, helps to remind me that Jesus was fully human and fully God from the moment of his Incarnation. This is a great mystery and I cannot logically explain how it could be or all that it means. If you look carefully, though at the theology of groups (Catholic OR Protestant) that forget this, I think that you will find that their Christology is weak in some particular. For example, He didn’t become fully Divine and cognizant of His mission till the Holy Spirit descended on Him at His baptism in the Jordan, he didn’t perform REAL miracles and healings but his followers just INTERPRETED them that way, He didn’t rise physically from the grave on the third day, He is not REALLY present in the Eucharist, etc., etc. You will find some weakness in their view and teaching on the person of Christ.
Do you have to pray to Mary to be saved? Of course not! But that won’t stop her from praying for you!
God bless you all! --Rusty

 

[Huguenot]

Mickey:

Well, at least four–that’s significant considering it is a statement accepted universally by the Christian world to counter nagging heresies.

I would rather say two :
-what does “apostolic” mean for a Protestant ? somebody ( maybe it was you, I don’t remember ) said that Protestants “redefine” this word to “accept” the creed, but then it means that when they recite it they don’t mean the same as Catholics, it’s a bit strange for me …

-baptism is a real problem …

as far as the two other problems are concerned,

° for the Holy Spirit proceeding both from the Father and the Son, or only from the Father, I said I don’t know …is that a problem then ? I haven’t had time to think it over …

° for Jesus incarnate by the Holy Spirit and / in / of / from the Virgin Mary, somebody said there is no translation that says “and”, I admit “in” was not a good solution either, if the Latin word means “from” or “of” it isn’t a problem for me…
So in fact it was a “false” problem because of the word “and” …

 

[Huguenot]

Rustyxcv:

Ma chere, Huguenotte, mes regrets pour avoir vous “il-toyez”!
Ah, the delightful little tangles we get into when we try to express incomprehensible transcendant mysteries with our crude earthbound language. you and Kitty Chan were talking earlier about the “bridge to God.” Careful! The Holy spirit is not a bridge to God . . . the Holy Spirit IS God. One could speak about anything or anyone that makes it easier for us to reach God as a bridge to God. So the Holy Bible, your local church fellowship, a well-preached sermon, or even the Blessed Virgin Mary could all be bridges to God.
I have always liked the way that Mary’s role was expressed in this little story [again, pious souls PLEASE do forgive for the apparent irreverence]:
One day Jesus came down to the front square of Heaven and noticed that there were all sorts of unsavory characters dancing about, strumming harps, and chanting psalms. He called Peter over and scolded him, “Peter, I’ve put you in charge of the Gates of Heaven, and here I find the place full of liars, thieves, prostitutes, murderers, and such like! What’s going on?” Peter sheepishly bows his head and replies, “Begging your pardon, mi’Lord, but it’s your Mother. You see, I turn them away at the front and then She goes and lets them in through the kitchen door!”
Again, perhaps part of the problem is in the language. In the strictest sense, we do not pray TO Mary, but rather we pray WITH Mary. We ask her, as a favor, to pray WITH us. We pray TO God, pray to the Father, pray to Jesus. We rarely pray specifically TO the Holy Spirit, because it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we can pray at all or have any kind of intentions toward holy things. So, to be praying at all is already to be immersed in the Holy Spirit and under His influence and guidance.
The difference between Catholic prayer and Protestant prayer is perhaps more one of flavor than one of substance. I spent many years, myself, worshipping in evangelical churches. Speaking from my own experience, praying in Protestant worship or at home during that period, I was very much aware of God and of me, as an individual. Praying as a Catholic, whether in church or at home, I am always much more aware that I am not praying alone, much more aware that everyone in the Church (living & departed from this world) is praying right along with me, and my awareness of God is fuller and broader, it “has more flesh on it” somehow. Including Mary and all the other saints in my prayers, enhances this experience of feeling that all of God’s children are praying with me for the salvation of the whole world.
Remembering that Mary is the mother of God, helps to remind me that Jesus was fully human and fully God from the moment of his Incarnation. This is a great mystery and I cannot logically explain how it could be or all that it means. If you look carefully, though at the theology of groups (Catholic OR Protestant) that forget this, I think that you will find that their Christology is weak in some particular. For example, He didn’t become fully Divine and cognizant of His mission till the Holy Spirit descended on Him at His baptism in the Jordan, he didn’t perform REAL miracles and healings but his followers just INTERPRETED them that way, He didn’t rise physically from the grave on the third day, He is not REALLY present in the Eucharist, etc., etc. You will find some weakness in their view and teaching on the person of Christ.
Do you have to pray to Mary to be saved? Of course not! But that won’t stop her from praying for you!
God bless you all! --Rusty

Well I don’t feel alone when I pray …I know my brothers and sisters are praying too , I don’t see much difference with what you experience as a Catholic.
I also believe the Holy Spirit IS God, so I’ve probably expressed myself wrongly…
Your story with Mary being more merciful than Peter is a bit shocking because who can be more merciful than Jesus Himself ? If He has given His life for us, nobody can do more for us than Him, nobody can be more merciful than Him …
In my church we don’t believe He knew of His mission only after His baptism : when He was twelve years old, in Jerusalem, He told His parents that He had to look after His Father’s ( then He meant God the Father, not Joseph ) plans ( it’s not the exact word in French Bibles, but I don’t know how it has been translated in English, I suppose you know what I am talking about ) ; we believe He physically rose from the dead, the miracles were real miracles, and so on …
We also believe His birth was miraculous
But as for His real presence in the Eucharist, well, yes, I disagree with you …

 

[Huguenot]

Kitty Chan:

Huguenot

You are doing wonderful, Mercygate you asked earlier for me to repeat the question. No need to, Huguenot you are stating it just fine. In fact its better as I am not familiar with all these types of names of different groups.

I like the Nicene creed as it states a good core for what a person needs to believe, and is useful in conversations with people who rightfully say “oh God, what God, which God, theres nothing consistant” So that creed is a great starting point.

Also from recent reading of apologitics of the Bible and historical accuracy, the Nicene is supposed to be the first and shows early Christians believed in the deity of Christ. Thats another thread. because while we debate certain bits around, there is a whole world out there that isnt even on step one that there is God, and some dont even believe Christ was there.

I’ve also said I “accept” most of the Nicene Creed, there are just points that are not very clear to me ; moreover, we are not used, in my church , to “reciting” texts, so we don’t use the Creed , it doesn’t mean we find it wrong altogether …
we also believe in baptism but since this word covers different conceptions and practices, it would seem strange to me to recite this part in a Catholic church, for instance, knowing what they believe about baptism ( and how they “practice” it ), and having, for my part, a very different conception.
We all believe ( in my denomination ) in the deity of Christ. ( in the Holy Trinity, for us the Holy Spirit is also God ).
Don’t worry about all the names you aren’t used to, that’s European religious history … I just said this to show that in Europe the type of Protestantism I belong to is as old as the more “famous” Lutheran or Reformed type ; only it couldn’t develop because of persecutions …
So some migrated to what was not the United States yet but British colonies…

 

[Rustyxcv]

Dear Huguenot,
Again, please, forgive me for having a bit of sport.
If Mary is the Mother of God, then,
Her son Jesus is God.
God does not lie, so therefore,
Jesus does not lie.
I seem to remember Jesus saying at the last supper (the meal at which He established the same Eucharist that all Christians have celebrated down to this very day):
“This may be my body, sort of, . . . somehow.”
I remember him saying elsewhere:
“Unless you pretend to eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and pretend to drink His blood, you do not have life in you.”
(After this last saying – pace, Sola Scripturians, in its actual form, of course – people were so shocked that many left him!)
If Jesus didn’t tell the truth, or if He didn’t really mean what He really said, then we are all worse than lost.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Part 2 – The story of Peter and Mary admitting different kinds of people into Heaven, is of course just a story and a joke. I do not really believe that Mary is more merciful than Peter. Scripture does tell us that the angel of the Lord says that Mary is “full of grace” or “favored by God,” which it does not say of Peter. It says that Peter has the keys of Heaven & earth, which it does not say of Mary. The story is just a humorous and homely way of showing that God will use whatever (or whoever) it takes to draw us to Him.
Different strokes for different folks.
– I had a vision once of what I rather believe is the more likely relationship of Peter & Mary in their Heavenly intercessory roles. Mary and Peter are in a large row boat on a violent, stormy sea. All around them there are desperate sinners drowning in the choppy, surging waters. Mary tells Peter to “Row over here!” or “There’s another one. Row over there!” When they pull up alongside a poor lost soul, Our Lady throws one end of a Rosary overboard to them (a truly desperate measure, as we all know how very flimsy and weak a string of Rosary beads is). The drowning soul grabs on to one end of the Rosary and Mary pulls him or her over the gunwale and into the safety of the boat. Occasionally, Peter too will rest an oar on his knee and lower a strand of beads to rescue a floundering unfortunate.
– Day in and day out, night and day, in all kinds of weather, the two of them persevere in this holy labor. “But what of those who don’t make use of the Rosary, who refuse to grab a hold of one?” Well, with difficult cases, it takes the two of them working together, lasso-ing two arms or other limbs to snag a flailing victim and drag him up into the boat (almost against his own will – lol – he doesn’t want to drown, he wants to be rescued, but NOT by them, and ceratinly NOT in this way).
– I think that many of us may be surprised to find when we get to Heaven, that we were not saved by our understanding of the Scriptures, not saved by our faithful following of Jesus’ teaching, not saved by our devoted worship, etc., etc.; BUT that our moment of turning toward God came at that instant that some humble unknown soul prayed a Rosary on our behalf. Such is the mystery and the wonder of God’s ways!
– Blessing to all!!! --Rusty

 

[Mike_D30]

k.Decker:

is she in some ways considerd a Goddess in way,
she is chosen to be divine, so is there mother, father, and son, a holy family, God greated us in it’s image, male and female-the human race, then is it possible for god to exist in a femine divine state, thanks and please let me know, take it easy.

An emphatic no!

That would be a terrible heresy to believe that.

 

[Huguenot]

Rustyxcv:

Dear Huguenot,
Again, please, forgive me for having a bit of sport.
If Mary is the Mother of God, then,
Her son Jesus is God.
God does not lie, so therefore,
Jesus does not lie.
I seem to remember Jesus saying at the last supper (the meal at which He established the same Eucharist that all Christians have celebrated down to this very day):
“This may be my body, sort of, . . . somehow.”
I remember him saying elsewhere:
“Unless you pretend to eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and pretend to drink His blood, you do not have life in you.”
(After this last saying – pace, Sola Scripturians, in its actual form, of course – people were so shocked that many left him!)
If Jesus didn’t tell the truth, or if He didn’t really mean what He really said, then we are all worse than lost.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Part 2 – The story of Peter and Mary admitting different kinds of people into Heaven, is of course just a story and a joke. I do not really believe that Mary is more merciful than Peter. Scripture does tell us that the angel of the Lord says that Mary is “full of grace” or “favored by God,” which it does not say of Peter. It says that Peter has the keys of Heaven & earth, which it does not say of Mary. The story is just a humorous and homely way of showing that God will use whatever (or whoever) it takes to draw us to Him.
Different strokes for different folks.
– I had a vision once of what I rather believe is the more likely relationship of Peter & Mary in their Heavenly intercessory roles. Mary and Peter are in a large row boat on a violent, stormy sea. All around them there are desperate sinners drowning in the choppy, surging waters. Mary tells Peter to “Row over here!” or “There’s another one. Row over there!” When they pull up alongside a poor lost soul, Our Lady throws one end of a Rosary overboard to them (a truly desperate measure, as we all know how very flimsy and weak a string of Rosary beads is). The drowning soul grabs on to one end of the Rosary and Mary pulls him or her over the gunwale and into the safety of the boat. Occasionally, Peter too will rest an oar on his knee and lower a strand of beads to rescue a floundering unfortunate.
– Day in and day out, night and day, in all kinds of weather, the two of them persevere in this holy labor. “But what of those who don’t make use of the Rosary, who refuse to grab a hold of one?” Well, with difficult cases, it takes the two of them working together, lasso-ing two arms or other limbs to snag a flailing victim and drag him up into the boat (almost against his own will – lol – he doesn’t want to drown, he wants to be rescued, but NOT by them, and ceratinly NOT in this way).
– I think that many of us may be surprised to find when we get to Heaven, that we were not saved by our understanding of the Scriptures, not saved by our faithful following of Jesus’ teaching, not saved by our devoted worship, etc., etc.; BUT that our moment of turning toward God came at that instant that some humble unknown soul prayed a Rosary on our behalf. Such is the mystery and the wonder of God’s ways!
– Blessing to all!!! --Rusty

What makes it impossible for me to believe in the real presencer is the fact that it implies that the sacrifice of Christ is repeated each time the Eucharist is celebrated, which contradicts Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 that say ( in an insistent way ) that Christ has offered Himself ONCE…

Why should it be necessary that someone should have prayed the ROSARY for me to turn to God ? What about if he simply prayed … God Himself ?

Curious way of starting your demonstration with Mary to prove Jesus is God “if Mary is the mother of God then Jesus is God…”

Well, Jesus IS God, otherwise why would Thomas have said "My Lord and my God ? "
The problem is : does it make Mary the mother of God ? This dogma was proclaimed, if I’m not mistaken, in the 5th century …
And even if it is true …does it mean we can pray to her when Jesus says : “I am the way… noone comes to the Father BUT THROUGH ME ?”
For me this verse is very important because that’s precisely how I found the Father …

 

[Rustyxcv]

Huguenot–
Good to hear from you again! I would like to comment on all the points you raise in this post, but before I begin, let me say that I do not know the Church’s official language or formulations for the very important questions that you raise. I cannot recommend highly enough that you get a copy of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church,” Second Edition. All of the concerns that you raise are addressed there in full with extensive quotations from the Scriptures and testimony from the martyrs and theologians of the earliest decades of the Church. What I will share is just my understanding, the limited understanding at that, of a fellow soul like yourself who is trying to draw closer to the Truth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Perhaps (PERHAPS!), it will help you to begin to understand the nature of Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist to think of the Holy Mass as a sort of “time machine.” [Forgive me, pious souls.] Of course, Jesus is not re-scourged, re-mocked, and re-executed by Roman soldiers in the unique historical sense in which He was in AD 30 every time that we celebrate the Eucharist. His atoning sacrifice on that day, IN HISTORY, was all sufficient for all people for all time (past, present, & future). The point the author of Hebrews is making is that the Jerusalem Temple sacrifices are o longer of any effect, and, in fact, were of no real effect in the past, but were merely types of figures of the One True Sacrifice which was to come.
In the Holy Mass, that One True Sacrifice is re-created, re-enacted, and re-presented. This is done in the present day for all who are immediately present (in history) but at the very same time it is simultaneously being done in God’s Eternal Kingdom for all people for all time. The words that Christ himself spoke in the Upper Room are spoken by the priest–in the persona of Christ. The bread is broken, as his body was “broken.” The wine is poured out, as his blood was poured out. His Precious Body and Blood are lifted up for all to see, just as He was lifted up on the cross for all to see. Then all believers who are present share in the Feast, the Heavenly Banquet. The meal shared by the Apostles and the Eucharist shared by the believers at the corner parish are one and the same meal (in mortal history, sparated by 2000 years), in God’s time, from the perspective of the resurrected Heavenly Kingdom, occuring simultaneously.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ah, sorry, dear Huguenot, there is just so much to say on these wonderful mysteries that I will have to come back to your other points at another time.
Blessings to all! --Rusty

 

[Rustyxcv]

Huguenot,
Continuing on some of the next point you raised.
You are certainly right, it is not NECESSARY for anyone to pray the Rosary in order for others to be turned toward God. It is, of course, God by the power of the Holy Spirit who does the actual turning. The salvation of all souls is one of the basic things that we who pray the Rosary regularly ask for. It could be that our prayers have absolutely no effect, but there are SO many of us doing it, day and night, all over the world at all times, that I find it hard to believe that our entreaties for the salvation of souls fall on deaf ears. The salvation of souls is in fact the business that God is in, isn’t it?
– By all means, pray every day for the salvation of souls “directly” to God. Praying the Rosary miraculously puts one in the company of all others who are also praying it. In the Rosary we remember and meditate on the major events in Christ’s life and rehearse God’s plan of salvation. I, personally, find this more interesting, more enlivening, more helpful. It also gives me the strength and perserverence to pray for a longer period of time than I ordinarily would, left to my own devices.
– While praying the Rosary, the Holy Spirit (and sometimes Mary or one of the other saints) will reveal to us or impress upon our hearts someone in special need of prayer whom we can remember, or may call to our hearts a need that requires an act of mercy that only we can do. Of course, the same thing can happen when you pray “directly” to God. It’s just that the prayers and meditations associated with the Rosary are likely to prompt such insights as we consider the events of Our Lord’s life.
– It is extremely difficult when praying for any length of time to keep the mind from wandering or getting distracted into vain imaginings. We can also begin to conceive of God in a sterile abstract or even geometrical fashion or even project our own ideas about Him onto Him, rather than “seeing” Him as He is. Focusing on the life of Jesus, as we do in the Rosary, helps to keep the “fleshy” bits of our brains and souls properly aligned with the plans and workings of God as they truly are, and not as we would imagine or prefer them to be.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mind you, I must confess that I spend relatively little time praying the Rosary, myself. I say bits and pieces of it every day, but a full five decades only once or twice a week. Most of my time I spend in a quiet almost continual prayer, every few moments turning to God, praising and thanking Jesus, asking for God’s help, or some such. My formal focused prayer time (45 mins to an hour most days) is spent praying the Holy Office (the Liturgy of the Hours). It consists of Office of Readings and Morning, Day, Evening, and Night Prayer. I would highly recommend it to you, chere Huguenot, as it is just CHOCK FULL of Scriptures (and it has almost nothing to say to . . . or about the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, except on her feast days–and as a Protestant, I am sure that you would be excused from saying them and could just pray the ordinary prayers on those days–lol).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Blessing to all! --Rusty

 

[Rustyxcv]

Huguenot,
On to your third point.
Thank you for getting my little philosophical joke, i.e., beginning the syllogism with: “If Mary is the Mother of God then . . .” Yes, you are right this does seem like putting the cart before the horse, but I did it to emphasize the very real relationship between Jesus and Mary, and to emphasize the very real “god-hood” of Jesus, the son of Mary.
– This was also the emphasis of the church council in the 5th century that gave Mary the title Mother of God. The point was not to divinize Mary, but rather to insist on the complete divinity of Jesus from the very instant of His Incarnation in Mary’s womb. In those days (and everywhere today), there were many people who believed and preached that Jesus BECAME divine somewhere in the course of his life; at his baptism, at the Transfiguration, at the Resurrection; OR that he was simply a very good holy man and perhaps a prophet inspired by God.
– The very fact that this title, Mother of God, unsettles so many people says something about their conception of who Jesus is and the nature of His actions. He really is GOD come down in the flesh into the real world. The world was entirely and drastically CHANGED by His entering into it. Certainly, the one person with whom He had a complete physical and biological connection was likewise radically transformed by His presence in her life! The most amazing aspect of this miracle to me is the fact that we ALL can be transformed and changed as much as she was. Hallelujah!
– Back to the syllogism. Consider the following:
Ice will melt to become water AND water will freeze to become ice. OR
Water will freeze to become ice AND ice will melt to become water.
It matters not what order we put the elements in because they feed back and forth into one another in such a way as to create a symmetrical kind of equivilancy, in a logical sense (I am NOT saying that ice and liquid water are the same substance or have the same properties).
– To the matter at hand:
Jesus is God. Mary is Jesus’s mother. Mary is the mother of God.
Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of God. Mary is Jesus’s mother.
Mary is Jesus’s mother. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of God.
Mary is Jesus’s mother. Mary is the mother of God. Jesus is God.
Mary is the mother of God. Mary is Jesus’s mother. Jesus is God.
Mary is the mother of God. Jesus is God. Mary is Jesus’s mother.
– There you have all the permutations. [Pious souls please forgive me the apparent silliness of this exercise.] They are logically equivalent and they are all pointing to the same historical and eternal reality which will never change . . . that in the fullness of time, God sent his own son to be born of a virgin of the house and lineage of David.
– Mind you, that fact that we can state this relationship a logical syllogism does not mean that we KNOW the fullness of its meaning. It is still a great miracle and a PROFOUND, almost blinding, mystery.
– Jesus’s statement that “no one comes to the Father but by me” was not meant to say that nobody, but nobody, could do anything to help in the process. Billy Graham, John Paul II (even the BVM!), and many great witnesses to the truth of the Gospel have ALL helped to bring people to (or toward, if you will) the Father. Jesus is simply saying that when you finally do “get to the Father, I am there, too.” Jesus is SO CLOSE to the Father that nobody can get to the Father without encountering (and needing the help of) Jesus, too. Jesus is revealing to His closest followers in this statement that He, Jesus, is very God (using a locution that that prevents him from sounding like the kook or megalomaniac who goes around saying, “I am God. I am God. Obey me!”).
– Remember that when we pray to Mary we ask her to pray for us. We do NOT pray to her as if she were God. Scripture says that the “pray of the righteous effects much.” It is in this way that we pray to Mary, pray to our friends, pray to our pastor. We are asking them to help us to pray for us, to intercede on our behalf with God. Try it, see what happens.
– Si tu veux si le pudding est bon, goutes-y!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Blessings to all! --Rusty

 

[Huguenot]

Rustyxcv:

Huguenot,
On to your third point.
Thank you for getting my little philosophical joke, i.e., beginning the syllogism with: “If Mary is the Mother of God then . . .” Yes, you are right this does seem like putting the cart before the horse, but I did it to emphasize the very real relationship between Jesus and Mary, and to emphasize the very real “god-hood” of Jesus, the son of Mary.
– This was also the emphasis of the church council in the 5th century that gave Mary the title Mother of God. The point was not to divinize Mary, but rather to insist on the complete divinity of Jesus from the very instant of His Incarnation in Mary’s womb. In those days (and everywhere today), there were many people who believed and preached that Jesus BECAME divine somewhere in the course of his life; at his baptism, at the Transfiguration, at the Resurrection; OR that he was simply a very good holy man and perhaps a prophet inspired by God.
– The very fact that this title, Mother of God, unsettles so many people says something about their conception of who Jesus is and the nature of His actions. He really is GOD come down in the flesh into the real world. The world was entirely and drastically CHANGED by His entering into it. Certainly, the one person with whom He had a complete physical and biological connection was likewise radically transformed by His presence in her life! The most amazing aspect of this miracle to me is the fact that we ALL can be transformed and changed as much as she was. Hallelujah!
– Back to the syllogism. Consider the following:
Ice will melt to become water AND water will freeze to become ice. OR
Water will freeze to become ice AND ice will melt to become water.
It matters not what order we put the elements in because they feed back and forth into one another in such a way as to create a symmetrical kind of equivilancy, in a logical sense (I am NOT saying that ice and liquid water are the same substance or have the same properties).
– To the matter at hand:
Jesus is God. Mary is Jesus’s mother. Mary is the mother of God.
Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of God. Mary is Jesus’s mother.
Mary is Jesus’s mother. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of God.
Mary is Jesus’s mother. Mary is the mother of God. Jesus is God.
Mary is the mother of God. Mary is Jesus’s mother. Jesus is God.
Mary is the mother of God. Jesus is God. Mary is Jesus’s mother.
– There you have all the permutations. [Pious souls please forgive me the apparent silliness of this exercise.] They are logically equivalent and they are all pointing to the same historical and eternal reality which will never change . . . that in the fullness of time, God sent his own son to be born of a virgin of the house and lineage of David.
– Mind you, that fact that we can state this relationship a logical syllogism does not mean that we KNOW the fullness of its meaning. It is still a great miracle and a PROFOUND, almost blinding, mystery.
– Jesus’s statement that “no one comes to the Father but by me” was not meant to say that nobody, but nobody, could do anything to help in the process. Billy Graham, John Paul II (even the BVM!), and many great witnesses to the truth of the Gospel have ALL helped to bring people to (or toward, if you will) the Father. Jesus is simply saying that when you finally do “get to the Father, I am there, too.” Jesus is SO CLOSE to the Father that nobody can get to the Father without encountering (and needing the help of) Jesus, too. Jesus is revealing to His closest followers in this statement that He, Jesus, is very God (using a locution that that prevents him from sounding like the kook or megalomaniac who goes around saying, “I am God. I am God. Obey me!”).
– Remember that when we pray to Mary we ask her to pray for us. We do NOT pray to her as if she were God. Scripture says that the “pray of the righteous effects much.” It is in this way that we pray to Mary, pray to our friends, pray to our pastor. We are asking them to help us to pray for us, to intercede on our behalf with God. Try it, see what happens.
– Si tu veux si le pudding est bon, goutes-y!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Blessings to all! --Rusty

 

[Huguenot]

Huguenot:
for Rusty

I have “examined” all these things before becoming a Protestant ( I’m not Protestant “by birth”, I was brought up in an atheist family ) and the fact that Mary = mother of God dates from the fifth century shows that it was not the general belief of the primitive church, the same being true for other dogmas , some were added even much later that the Pope’s infaillibility.
As for the real presence of Christ and the repetition of His sacrifice, I’ll have to check in a Catholic catechism but I think it would be easier for me in French ; if the renewal of His sacrifice is not the official teaching of your church, then it means that a lot of French Catholics are …wrong ( heretics, ha ha ha !!! --why should this word be used only for us ? )

I believe Jesus is God even BEFORE he was conceived in Mary, so he was already God when He was born, He didn’t “become” God at His baptism or something like this, although I’ve already heard this …

Your “story” with the time machine is very complicated for me to grasp…
If the whole point is to make us remember that Christ gave His life for us, well, that is what we experience when celebrating the Lord’s Supper …

 

[twf]

Huguenot: I’m a former Evangelical Protestant who converted to Catholicism myself. Many (if not all) of the points you have brought up are addressed by Dave Armstrong and David MacDonald, both of whom are also former Evangelical converts to the Catholic Church. Dave’s website can be found at socrates58.blogspot.com/ and David’s at www.catholicbridge.com. In particular, I found Dave Armstrong’s book “A Biblical Defense of Catholicism” very helpful (in explaining the nature of the Eucharistic sacrifice, the role of the Virgin Mary, the relationship between faith and works, etc).

The Eucharistic Sacrifice is not a “repeat” of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Rather the one sacrifice of Christ is made present on the altar by the power of the Holy Spirit, to be present before the Father for time. I assume that you agree that God is capable of anything. This being the case, the Holy Spirit certainly could make Christ’s sacrifice present under the form of bread and wine. The sacrifice of the Mass transcends time and space. The sacrifice of the cross is the sacrifice of the altar. They are one and the same. Please take a look at scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html.

In the book of Revelation, the Apostle John sees an altar in heaven, and Christ standing before the Father as a ‘lamb slain’ (Rev. 5:6). Both images have sacrificial undertones. Christ is risen, and no longer dead, yet the sacrifice of Christ (as the Lamb of God) is still present before the Father. If the sacrifice is not made present for all time, why would there be an altar in heaven?

The following article (from this site) includes quotes from the early Fathers supporting belief in the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist: catholic.com/library/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass.asp

As for the Real Presence itself (not just the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist), I invite you to quickly take a look at catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp (Which includes quotes from the early Fathers teaching the Real Presence) and catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp.

God bless.
In Christ,
Tyler

 

[mercygate]

Huguenot:

. . . the fact that Mary = mother of God dates from the fifth century shows that it was not the general belief of the primitive church, the same being true for other dogmas , some were added even much later that the Pope’s infaillibility.

Dear Huguenot,

One thing that people frequently trip over is the matter of “late” definitions. The definition, “Mother of God,” came late because before the Council of Ephesus (which all Reformation Protestants accepted) there was no need for a definition. The need for clarification arose over a controversy concerning the nature of Jesus Christ. The dogma was promulgated to assert that Jesus is true God as well as true man and not, as you pointed out in your post, “divinized” later, say, at his baptism. So the “late” definition in no way means that Mary was not “Mother of God” before that. And it certainly does not mean that we think Mary is “older than God” as some accuse.

“Mother of God” is a title accepted today by mainstream Protestant theologians and is not a point of division between Catholics and Protestants.

 

[Huguenot]

mercygate:

Dear Huguenot,

One thing that people frequently trip over is the matter of “late” definitions. The definition, “Mother of God,” came late because before the Council of Ephesus (which all Reformation Protestants accepted) there was no need for a definition. The need for clarification arose over a controversy concerning the nature of Jesus Christ. The dogma was promulgated to assert that Jesus is true God as well as true man and not, as you pointed out in your post, “divinized” later, say, at his baptism. So the “late” definition in no way means that Mary was not “Mother of God” before that. And it certainly does not mean that we think Mary is “older than God” as some accuse.

“Mother of God” is a title accepted today by mainstream Protestant theologians and is not a point of division between Catholics and Protestants.

Well for me it IS point of division …

 

[mercygate]

Huguenot:

Well for me it IS point of division …

It is problematic for a lot of non-mainstream fundamentalist Protestants. Do you know whether Huguenots in general reject this title? Or is your reaction a personal response?

As I mentioned elsewhere, my ignorance of Huguenot theology is extremely vague.