Mother of God

[threadkiller]

2 Sam 6:2 He and all his men set out from Baalah of Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name, the name of the LORD Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim that are on the ark.

Luke 1:39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea,

Your typology fails already, God is above the ark, not represented as only being in the ark. And these two texts have nothing in common.

Luke 1.39 KJV. “And Mary(Ark of God) AROSE in those days and went into the hill country with haste , into a city of Judah”.

1 Sam 6.2 KJV. "And David AROSE and went with all the people that were with him, from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ‘Ark of God’ ".

I guess old habits die hard. You still won’t respond to the scripture citations in post # 6 and now you won’t respond to the other twelve verses that I’ve just cited.

 

[threadkiller]

Shibboleth:

In Gates of Hell should be translated as the Gates of Hades. Hades is not Hell – this is a mistranslation. Hades is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew word Sheol. Sheol means ‘grave’, ‘in the ground’ or place of the dead. It is not Hell.

The verse means that I will build this Church and it will not go into the Grave.

I’m sure the Holy Spirit appreciates your implication that He isn’t sufficient as the inspirer of the “Word of God”. What other corrections to the Bible have you made,or are you just getting started.

 

[Shibboleth]

threadkiller:

I’m sure the Holy Spirit appreciates your implication that He isn’t sufficient as the inspirer of the “Word of God”. What other corrections to the Bible have you made,or are you just getting started.

Actually it is because I can read Biblical Greek. But you do not have to take my word for it.

Y’know how in the latter part of the verse in traditional English translations Jesus says “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” Well, in Greek what he says is “the gates of hades” will not prevail against it, which some modern translations have also picked up on.

The distinction is significant because in contemporary English the word “hell” means one thing: the place of the damned. That’s not the case in older dialects of English (e.g., the one in use when the Douay-Rheims and King James versions were translated). In that day, “hell” could mean the same things as “hades,” which in Greek simply refers to the place of the dead, not specifically the place of the damned. (“Netherworld” might be a good English translation since that doesn’t indicate specifically where the damned go.)

The Hebrew equivalent of hades is sh’ol, which also just refers to the place of the dead.

Do you want to level the same accusation at Jimmy Akin? Cause’ he is the one who wrote the above quote.

 

[threadkiller]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi ThreadKiller,

In Luke 1.43 the word Lord simply means “master”, not God.

I noticed that you skipped Rev 12:2

Revelation 11:15-12:5

The Seventh Trumpet
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
19Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Revelation 12
The Woman and the Dragon

1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Rev 11:19 fits with that which preceeds it. Rev 12:1 is a transition away from chapter 11. The increased pain in childbirth in Rev 12:2 shows that Mary was not sinless. Also, in luke Mary calls God her Saviour, only us sinners need a saviour. Others with open and humble mind see the woman of Rev 12 as being the church, not Mary.

If Luke 1.43 simply means master, then I guess you deny the divinity of Christ. Which naturally follows your denial of Mary as “Mother of God” Lk. 1.43, which naturally follows your denial of “Sacred Scripture”.
Mary is also the the mother of the Church which is constantly giving birth to children of God in It’s battle with Satan. Rv. 12.2 & 17 It’s not her sins that are causing the birth pangs, it’s ours. Rv. 11.19 & 12.1 fit quite nicely together. Chapter breaks and verse numbers weren’t added to scripture until the middle ages.
Of course , you seperate scripture from the Church that gave them to us. That Church being the pillar and foundation of truth. 1 Tim. 3…15. Why would you hesitate to seperate scripture from scripture tn blatant denial of our Lord’s(“simply master”?) exhortation that scriptue cannot be broken? Jn 10.35

 

[Shibboleth]

Actually in Aramaic Jesus would have said Sh’ol.

http://www.jimmyakin.org/images/matt1618c_1.JPG

 

[Evan]

Shibboleth:

Person 1.
“Is Mary the Mother of God?”

Person 2.
“Depends on what you mean by Mother.”

Person 1.
‘What do you mean?”

Person 2.
“Are you asking if Mary existed before the Christ and that his soul came into existence upon her conception? Because then the answer is ‘NO’.

Actually… Christ’s human soul came into existence along with His human body upon His conception. His divinity existed for all time, but not his humanity.

 

[Shibboleth]

Evan:

Actually… Christ’s human soul came into existence along with His human body upon His conception. His divinity existed for all time, but not his humanity.

Fair Enough

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

ah, thread killer, "If Luke 1.43 simply means master, then I guess you deny the divinity of Christ. "

You are making a joke, ROFL
a word gets its meaning from its context – verses 31 to 33 demonstrates the ranking, thus Lord means master in 43.

Luke 1
31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

 

[Milliardo]

Daniel Marsh:

a word gets its meaning from its context – verses 31 to 33 demonstrates the ranking, thus Lord means master in 43.

Now this is a funny thing, since nowhere in the context of it can it even be deduced that Elizabeth was talking simply of a ranking, or indeed of someone who is simply a master. We can further deduce that what you say is not so because she was inspired by the Holy Spirit; common sense would dictate that under normal circumstances she would probably say that the child in Mary’s womb is simply someone who is higher in rank. However, we can see here that she’s directed by the Holy Spirit, and that in the course of things the Spirit caused her to say something which is more than a mere title or rank. There you have it Daniel.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

“The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,”

ah my brother, throne equals king, equals rank – thus it is propper to refer to Jesus as master.

.

 

[Milliardo]

Daniel Marsh:

ah my brother, throne equals king, equals rank – thus it is propper to refer to Jesus as master.

The meaning there is that Jesus will inherit the promise given to David. Christ’s Kingship, however, is not limited to the line of David, or indeed to Israel itself. But we wander–again, please show where in the text is the allusion to the term Lord there to mean what you say.

 

[threadkiller]

Shibboleth:

Actually it is because I can read Biblical Greek. But you do not have to take my word for it.

Do you want to level the same accusation at Jimmy Akin? Cause’ he is the one who wrote the above quote.

The gates of Sheol will not prevail against it?

The gates of Hades will not prevail against it?

The gates of the place of the dead will not prevail against it?

The gates of the grave will not prevail against it?

The Gates of purgatory will not prevail against it?
Gates are instruments of defense, therefore dosen’t that mean that Christ’s Church is to be on the offensive? Against what? The grave? Hades? The place of the dead? How about the Kingdom of Hell(Satan)?
I have to give this one to you and J. Akin, Shibboleth.
I apologize and hereby withdraw my so-called accusation.

 

[threadkiller]

Daniel Marsh:

ah, thread killer, "If Luke 1.43 simply means master, then I guess you deny the divinity of Christ. "

You are making a joke, ROFL
a word gets its meaning from its context – verses 31 to 33 demonstrates the ranking, thus Lord means master in 43.

Luke 1
31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

Jesus is referred to as Master dozens of times in the Gospels. I think it means teacher. “And why is this granted me that the mother of my teacher(rabbi) should come to me?”. Now you’re making a “joke”, right?.

 

[Shibboleth]

threadkiller:

The gates of Sheol will not prevail against it?

The gates of Hades will not prevail against it?

The gates of the place of the dead will not prevail against it?

The gates of the grave will not prevail against it?

The Gates of purgatory will not prevail against it?
Gates are instruments of defense, therefore dosen’t that mean that Christ’s Church is to be on the offensive? Against what? The grave? Hades? The place of the dead? How about the Kingdom of Hell(Satan)?
I have to give this one to you and J. Akin, Shibboleth.
I apologize and hereby withdraw my so-called accusation.

Well it could mean a number of things.

First in this sense the Gates are in reference to the fact that they are keeping something in…

The Church is the Body of Christ. Upon crucifixion Christ descended into Sheol and preached the Good News to good that had died before him. Until the coming of Christ all but a few actually entered into the Kingdom of Heaven. They waited in Sheol for the Coming of the Messiah.

Upon the Sacrifice of the flawless Lamb the Gates of Heaven were opened and The Gates of Sheol could no longer hold the dead. They could not prevail against the Body of Christ they could not prevail against his Church. Christ resurrected himself from Sheol, he established his Church that will never die and therefore Sheol’s Gates can never hold in his Church, and Christians as part of the Body of Christ will not be held in by the Gates of Sheol.

This is why it is so important to properly discern the Body at communion

The Lord’s Supper unites us in the Body of Christ, the Holy Communion of Saints, Christian’s here and now, dead and buried, past and present. For through bread and wine comes to us his Body and Blood infused (poured out) for us just as we are his Body infused with his Grace. We do this in remembrance of him as we are the remembrance of him on Earth, the Elect redeemed and forgiven by the sacrifice of his Body and Blood for all eternity.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

the messiah was to be Jewish and of the house of David, so yes that verse does limit that kingship to Jesus alone.

again, a word gets its meaning from its immediate context. I did show that Jesus is the Messiah and King from Luke 1, thus referring to him as lord, simply means master. claiming that master in this case means teacher does not fit the context and therefore you are creating a strawman argument.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi Blessedrose, many protestants understand the catholic meaning to mean, the creator or origiin of God.

They are correct that catholics ( maybe not all ) do raise mary up too high to the level that looks like false worship.

.

I find it funny that your all response did not take into account what I really said.

 

[Jerusha]

I have heard many protestants say that Mary is not the “Mother of God”. They claim that it is a label that exalts her more than she should be. So, if Mary is not the Mother of God, than you deny that Jesus is God, correct

Therefore your actual premise, and the premise of those protestants are both fallacies. The more accurate argument is that:

People (particularly Catholics) can get so high into the spiritual atmosphere that they fail to recognize Mary as a human being who was chosen by God for a very special place in human history, and fail to recognize that Jesus also had a human nature. What is so special about Christianity (and Catholicism) is that we KNOW that God knows our pains and sorrows and temptations-- Loss of sight of that distances us from God.

 

[seabird3579]

Jerusha:

What is so special about Christianity (and Catholicism) is that we KNOW that God knows our pains and sorrows and temptations-- Loss of sight of that distances us from God.

AND, what Catholics KNOW is that Mary is the Mother of God, she is the Immaculate Conception, she is the Queen of Heaven, she is the co-matrix with Christ in the Redemption of all mankind, and she is the Mother of the Church, and finally ALL generations shall call her Blessed.

Let’s say a prayer for those who* fail * to understand, but want to understand:

Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

I just know she’s interceding for all of us and this will help enlighten our understanding of her.

God Bless all of you,
Have a Joyous New Year!

Brenda

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Brenda, pertty name, what are the origins of these titles for Mary, who was the first to use each of them? And, what was the original meaning of each vs what they mean today?

From the “Litany of the Blessed Virgin”

Holy Mary
Holy Mother of God;
Most honored of virgins;
Chosen daughter of the Father
Mother of Christ;
Glory of the Holy Spirit
Virgin daughter of Zion,
Virgin poor and humble,
Virgin gentle and obedient,
Handmaid of the Lord,
Mother of the Lord,
Helper of the Redeemed,
Full of grace,
Fountain of beauty,
Model of virtue,
Finest fruit of the redemption,
Perfect disciple of Christ,
Untarnished image of the Church,
Woman transformed,
Woman clothed with the sun,
Woman crowned with stars,
Gentile Lady,
Gracious Lady,
Our Lady,
Joy of Israel,
Splendor of the Church,
Pride of the human race,
Advocate of grace,
Minister of holiness,
Champion of God’s people,
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe

From the “Litany of Loreto”

Mother of the Church,
Mother of Divine grace,
Mother most pure;
Mother of chaste love;
Mother and virgin,
Sinless Mother,
Dearest of Mothers,
Model of motherhood,
Mother of good counsel;
Mother of our Creator;
Mother of our Savior;
Virgin most wise;
Virgin rightly praised;
Virgin rightly renowned;
Virgin most powerful;
Virgin gentle in mercy;
Faithful Virgin;
Mirror of justice;
Throne of wisdom;
Cause of our joy;
Shrine of the Spirit;
Glory of Israel,
Vessel of selfless devotion;
Mystical rose;
Tower of David;
Tower of ivory;
House of gold;
Ark of the covenant;
Gate of heaven;
Morning star;
Health of the sick;
Refuge of sinners;
Comfort of the troubled;
Help of Christians;
Queen of the rosary;
Queen of peace

also, how does one respond to

Mary is Mother of God
Jesus is second person of Trinity
Therefore Mary is the Mother of the Trinity

 

[seabird3579]

Daniel Marsh:

From the “Litany of the Blessed Virgin”

Holy Mary
Holy Mother of God;
Most honored of virgins;
Chosen daughter of the Father
Mother of Christ;
Glory of the Holy Spirit
Virgin daughter of Zion,
Virgin poor and humble,
Virgin gentle and obedient,
Handmaid of the Lord,
Mother of the Lord,
Helper of the Redeemed,
Full of grace,
Fountain of beauty,
Model of virtue,
Finest fruit of the redemption,
Perfect disciple of Christ,
Untarnished image of the Church,
Woman transformed,
Woman clothed with the sun,
Woman crowned with stars,
Gentile Lady,
Gracious Lady,
Our Lady,
Joy of Israel,
Splendor of the Church,
Pride of the human race,
Advocate of grace,
Minister of holiness,
Champion of God’s people,
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe

From the “Litany of Loreto”

Mother of the Church,
Mother of Divine grace,
Mother most pure;
Mother of chaste love;
Mother and virgin,
Sinless Mother,
Dearest of Mothers,
Model of motherhood,
Mother of good counsel;
Mother of our Creator;
Mother of our Savior;
Virgin most wise;
Virgin rightly praised;
Virgin rightly renowned;
Virgin most powerful;
Virgin gentle in mercy;
Faithful Virgin;
Mirror of justice;
Throne of wisdom;
Cause of our joy;
Shrine of the Spirit;
Glory of Israel,
Vessel of selfless devotion;
Mystical rose;
Tower of David;
Tower of ivory;
House of gold;
Ark of the covenant;
Gate of heaven;
Morning star;
Health of the sick;
Refuge of sinners;
Comfort of the troubled;
Help of Christians;
Queen of the rosary;
Queen of peace :

Daniel Marsh:

also, how does one respond to

Mary is Mother of God
Jesus is second person of Trinity
Therefore Mary is the Mother of the Trinity

I understand these titles of the Blessed Virgin Mary are difficult for Reformists and protestants, but the Church has decided that she “qualifies” for them – and that settles it for me.

Now, how would I respond to someone who tells me that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, therefore the Mother of God *is also * the Mother of the Trinity?

I would say that they completely misunderstand the scriptures.

Which, in my view, once you leave the Church that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would guide throughout the ages, then you’re in a world where there is no reassurance that your interpretation of scripture is entirely accurate.