Mother Teresa's Crisis of Faith

[zerinus]

**Zerinus:**QUOTE=zerinus;2676103]If I had been judging a particular individual, you would have been right. But I was not. I was making a general observation. As a general observation, what I had said is a true statement.

**Exiled:**From your post on pg 2,
**Zerinus:**B]" However, the prolonged “night of darkness” that she experienced is very telling. That spiritual witness, assurance, or testimony that she sought, that dispels all doubt and darkness, and fills the soul with light, joy, and great hope, is a precious gift of the Holy Spirit that can only come to one who is, or seeks to become a member of the true Church of Christ, which currently is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It cannot come in any other way. That is what she was yearning for in her innermost soul, not knowing where to find it. She will I am convinced find it in the next life."

**Exiled:**You are judging Mother Theresa here.

Two points: first of all, I am not “judging Mother Teresa”. I was merely commenting on her spiritual experience that she herself had expressed and acknowledged. I did not accuse her of any sins. Secondly, your original comments were made in relation to what I had said about LDS, not Mother Teresa. As I said before, you are either incapable of thinking clearly through what you are saying, or else you are being deliberately deceptive.

**Zerinus:**COLOR="DarkRed]You are the one who is talking about “total light” and “perfection of faith”. I did not. You are putting words in my mouth which I did not say./

COLOR]
**Exiled:**here is the quote…
Zerinus:"B]that dispels all doubt and darkness, and fills the soul with light, joy, and great hope,"
“**where their doubt and darkness is forever dispelled/**B].” (from your post to deb)

Yes, when one gains a testimony of the Holy Ghost, one’s doubt about the existence of God and true religion is dispelled. That is not equivalent to “total light” and “perfection of faith”.

**Zerinus:**COLOR=“DarkRed”]Apostasy occurs because of transgression. People can be righteous and then fall into transgression; or they can be sinners, but repent and become righteous. The rest of what you have said in this passage does not make sense. I don’t know what you are talking about.

**Exiled:**COLOR=“Black”]Well, Zerinus, I would agree that I am not the brightest crayon in the box, so let me try again.
How did the original apostacy occur? Did the last faithful, 1st century Mormon apostacize, and therefore spread lies, or did no one believe the true testimony of that last Mormon?

I presume you mean “1st century Christians”. I have discussed this subject many times before. Many early Christians did apostatize and fall away; but all of them didn’t. May good and faithful Christians remained. By the Apostasy we mean the loss of priesthood and Apostolic authority in the church, which occurred with the death of the Twelve Apostles, and the consequent loss of the power to lead the church by revelation from God.

zerinus

 

[lukewarm]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Someone like Mother Theresa doubting the very existence of God was shocking to me. I always figured she had conversations with the Almighty all day long. For someone like me who has never felt God’s presence to learn a model of Christianity went what 50 years without it too leaves me feeling quite hopeless.

Maybe everyone’s just “faking it”, seriously if Mother Theresa had to fake it for 50 years, maybe everyone else is too? I wouldn’t put it past humanity on the whole to pull something off like that.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Maybe everyone’s just “faking it”, seriously if Mother Theresa had to fake it for 50 years, maybe everyone else is too?

Everyone faked it at some point in their lives. I did too when I was a Christian. Theresa was just the motherload of all fakes. 40 years! You cant beat that. I guess she could not bear to disappoint her fans!

Mother Teresa sure makes a model Atheist. Even without faith she still did charitable wonders.

And yeah if Teresa can do it, surely so did some Popes in the past.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Someone like Mother Theresa doubting the very existence of God was shocking to me. I always figured she had conversations with the Almighty all day long. For someone like me who has never felt God’s presence to learn a model of Christianity went what 50 years without it too leaves me feeling quite hopeless.

It gives me strength to know she had the same doubts as I do. If she did have daily (two-way) conversations with God, I would feel more hopeless than ever as I am no where near Mother Teresa’s place.

Maybe everyone’s just “faking it”, seriously if Mother Theresa had to fake it for 50 years, maybe everyone else is too? I wouldn’t put it past humanity on teh whole to pull something off like that.

I do not fake my faith, though I fail at upholding it, and when I finish the book I will see if she faked it…but I doubt she did. Feeling that emptiness that only faith can fill afflicts everyone seemingly to one degree or another. I think that is our human nature.

Whether or not Christ felt that emptiness at any point in His life I do not know. Understanding He quoted a verse from the cross about being forsaken by God…part of me wants to believe for that brief moment He too felt abandoned. Jesus showed us all that despite us having those feengs at one moment or for a lifetime…it is a false feeling. God is faithfull to us and never abandons us though we might feel it.

 

[AgnosTheist]

It gives me strength to know she had the same doubts as I do. If she did have daily (two-way) conversations with God, I would feel more hopeless than ever as I am no where near Mother Teresa’s place.

is that right or are you faking it right here right now?

 

[Harpsichord]

"How many of us, in human relationships and in our relationship with God, put much emphasis on some “burning in our bosom”, as though it is the be-all-end-all in faith. And then, when we determine that we are not “being fed”, abandon Our Lord.
She lived by faith. That is, believed what she could not see or feel. She simply lived, “Jesus, I trust in you.”
“Crisis of faith” is, in my mind, a misnomer. “Crisis of feeling” might work, but I think her faith was far from in “crisis”.

Your words reminded me not of just faith in our Lord but in one another as well. How many people join a cause and then abandon it because it no longer entertains them? I admire her for keeping the faith even when the “thrill of emotion” was absent. It gives me the ability to stiffin my backbone and try a little harder than I otherwise would have. I am afraid that we now believe that life is a movie and if the emotion, background music or appropriate ending is missing then it surely isn’t ‘right.’

B.C.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I admire her for keeping the faith even when the “thrill of emotion” was absent.

though Teresa lost the faith in God, she never lost faith in love.

 

[zerinus]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Someone like Mother Theresa doubting the very existence of God was shocking to me. I always figured she had conversations with the Almighty all day long. For someone like me who has never felt God’s presence to learn a model of Christianity went what 50 years without it too leaves me feeling quite hopeless.

Maybe everyone’s just “faking it”, seriously if Mother Theresa had to fake it for 50 years, maybe everyone else is too? I wouldn’t put it past humanity on the whole to pull something off like that.

Everyone can “fake it” except you! The only one whom you can trust, and be absolutely sure is not “faking it” is when you know, by the witness of the Holy Spirit to you that God lives, and His Church is true. That is what is on offer in the LDS Church—and nowhere else! Kind of impressive; don’t you think?

zerinus

 

[PaulDupre]

You really think that outside the Mormon church, no one feels the witness of the Holy Spirit???

 

[zerinus]

You really think that outside the Mormon church, no one feels the witness of the Holy Spirit???

There is only one true Church in the world; and the Holy Spirit will witness to the truth of that one true Church only, and not to any other.

zerinus

 

[exiled]

Yes, when one gains a testimony of the Holy Ghost, one’s doubt about the existence of God and true religion is dispelled. That is not equivalent to “total light” and “perfection of faith”.

You say one’s doubt is dispelled. Totally dispelled? If the answer is “yes, totally dispelled”, then how is that not the equivalent of “total light” or “perfection of faith”?
Please, condescend, if you see fit, and explain the difference to the feeble minded.

I presume you mean “1st century Christians”. I have discussed this subject many times before. Many early Christians did apostatize and fall away; but all of them didn’t. May good and faithful Christians remained. By the Apostasy we mean the loss of priesthood and Apostolic authority in the church, which occurred with the death of the Twelve Apostles, and the consequent loss of the power to lead the church by revelation from God.

Yes, I mean first century Christians, if those Christians were, for all intents and purposes, believing and practicing what Mormons practice today.
You may have discussed this many times, but I do not read every post you write.
So, why could the priesthood not continue through those who did remain faithful? What precluded them from that role?

 

[FCEGM]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Someone like Mother Theresa doubting the very existence of God was shocking to me. I always figured she had conversations with the Almighty all day long. For someone like me who has never felt God’s presence to learn a model of Christianity went what 50 years without it too leaves me feeling quite hopeless.

Maybe everyone’s just “faking it”, seriously if Mother Theresa had to fake it for 50 years, maybe everyone else is too? I wouldn’t put it past humanity on the whole to pull something off like that.

Living by faith is not “faking it”; what Mother Teresa experienced is experienced by all the great Saints who are put through the crucible of living for God for Who He is in Himself, not for all the good feelings and consolations we can get as He urges us along in our infantile steps to live in greater intimacy with Him. Those, such as Mother Teresa, whom He has strengthened to bear more of the weight of the Cross with Our Lord are brought into the “dark night” to share more intimately in His sufferings (St. Therese of Lisieux was another such) for the furtherance of His Kingdom (this union of Mother Teresa with Christ through faith is precisely why her work was so fruitful!). There is hardly “hopeless[ness]” in this. In another thread, a poster quoted this from St. John of the Cross which touches on why those who would truly live by faith experience the dark night of faith:

In order to be supernaturally transformed, the soul must enter the darkness (not only in regard to creatures, but in regard to what reason can know of God). It must remain in the darkness like a blind person, relying on obscure faith, taking it as light and guide. The soul cannot help itself with any of the things which it understands, tastes, sentiments, and images. If the soul does not wish to extinguish its lights by preferring total obscurity to them, it will not reach what is superior, that is, what faith teaches…

 

[Exodus15]

The fruit of silence is prayer
The fruit of prayer is faith
The fruit of faith is love
The fruit of love is service
The fruit of service is peace.
Mother Teresa

Can’t be more clearer than this…

​

 

[zerinus]

Yes, when one gains a testimony of the Holy Ghost, one’s doubt about the existence of God and true religion is dispelled. That is not equivalent to “total light” and “perfection of faith”.

You say one’s doubt is dispelled. Totally dispelled? If the answer is “yes, totally dispelled”, then how is that not the equivalent of “total light” or “perfection of faith”?
Please, condescend, if you see fit, and explain the difference to the feeble minded.

I can only speak for myself. I can indeed say that my doubts are totally dispelled about the existence of God and the truth of the LDS Church. I cannot possibly have any doubts about that at all. Now if you want to call that “total light” and “perfection of faith,” feel free to do so; but that is not how I would be inclined to describe it.

I presume you mean “1st century Christians”. I have discussed this subject many times before. Many early Christians did apostatize and fall away; but all of them didn’t. May good and faithful Christians remained. By the Apostasy we mean the loss of priesthood and Apostolic authority in the church, which occurred with the death of the Twelve Apostles, and the consequent loss of the power to lead the church by revelation from God.

Yes, I mean first century Christians, if those Christians were, for all intents and purposes, believing and practicing what Mormons practice today.
You may have discussed this many times, but I do not read every post you write.
So, why could the priesthood not continue through those who did remain faithful? What precluded them from that role?

Here is a link to a post in which I have discussed that subject:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1601734&postcount=119

The thread in which this post occurs is nearly a year old! You can see more of my posts on the subject of the Apostasy in the same thread. You can open the thread by clicking on the link at the top right corner of the page.

zerinus

 

[exiled]

I can only speak for myself. I can indeed say that my doubts are totally dispelled about the existence of God and the truth of the LDS Church. I cannot possibly have any doubts about that at all. Now if you want to call that “total light” and “perfection of faith,” feel free to do so; but that is not how I would be inclined to describe it.

Here is a link to a post in which I have discussed that subject:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1601734&postcount=119

The thread in which this post occurs is nearly a year old! You can see more of my posts on the subject of the Apostasy in the same thread. You can open the thread by clicking on the link at the top right corner of the page.

zerinus

I’ll ask my next question on the thread you linked me to.

 

[MaryD7]

(Side note: How did this thread turn into a topic on the merits of LDS?)

I, for one, find great comfort in the fact that someone like Mother Teresa went through these doubts. It’s reassuring that a woman like this can feel and think things that I (or many people I know) do but she kept getting up in the morning and persevering in her faith.

Sometimes I feel that my religious life is such a joke because I am so far from the ideal Christian because of the questions I have. But I just have to keep getting up each morning and trying again … just like Mother Teresa. Maybe there is hope for me yet.

I know that the NY Times ran an opinion piece on this and the responses were almost 100% positive … even though many of the readers were self-proclaimed ‘non-religious’. Her honesty may be what will make her a saint to many.

 

[exiled]

(Side note: How did this thread turn into a topic on the merits of LDS?)

I, for one, find great comfort in the fact that someone like Mother Teresa went through these doubts. It’s reassuring that a woman like this can feel and think things that I (or many people I know) do but she kept getting up in the morning and persevering in her faith.

Sometimes I feel that my religious life is such a joke because I am so far from the ideal Christian because of the questions I have. But I just have to keep getting up each morning and trying again … just like Mother Teresa. Maybe there is hope for me yet.

I know that the NY Times ran an opinion piece on this and the responses were almost 100% positive … even though many of the readers were self-proclaimed ‘non-religious’. Her honesty may be what will make her a saint to many.

You’re right, Mary. I’ve posted my next question to Z on another thread, hopefully putting this thread back on track.

 

[MaryD7]

You’re right, Mary. I’ve posted my next question to Z on another thread, hopefully putting this thread back on track.

Okay … I just thought I missed something here.

It’s surprising how little it takes to make a thread veer off into all different directions. I know I’ve contributed to a few of those myself.

 

[lukewarm]

Living by faith is not “faking it”; what Mother Teresa experienced is experienced by all the great Saints who are put through the crucible of living for God for Who He is in Himself, not for all the good feelings and consolations we can get as He urges us along in our infantile steps to live in greater intimacy with Him. Those, such as Mother Teresa, whom He has strengthened to bear more of the weight of the Cross with Our Lord are brought into the “dark night” to share more intimately in His sufferings (St. Therese of Lisieux was another such) for the furtherance of His Kingdom (this union of Mother Teresa with Christ through faith is precisely why her work was so fruitful!). There is hardly “hopeless[ness]” in this. In another thread, a poster quoted this from St. John of the Cross which touches on why those who would truly live by faith experience the dark night of faith:

Have you actually read the entire Times article? I have and it conveys a woman who was truly spiritually lost. I don’t see how we can just discount that because of her extraordinary Christian work. She is a woman who simply did not feel God in her life at all for over 50 years. Which yes does shock me. She doubted God and felt abandoned by God for over 50 years while publically conveying a relationship with God that didn’t exist. Yes it’s shocking and calling it Dark Night o the Soul like St. John of The Cross had doesn’t appear to be analogous.

 

[jblair]

Here is the New York Times’ view of Mother Teresa, based on the new book of her letters.

New York Times
September 5, 2007
Editorial

** A Saint of Darkness **

           To the extent people ever tried to project themselves into the mind of Mother Teresa, they might have pictured a Gothic vault washed in dazzling beams of saintly conviction. How startling to discover that it was a dark and dispirited place, littered with doubts.

A new book of her letters, “Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light,” published by Doubleday, show her struggling for decades against disbelief. “If I ever become a saint,” she wrote in one letter, “I will surely be one of ‘darkness.’ ” And in another: “If there be no God — there can be no soul. If there is no soul then Jesus — You also are not true. Heaven, what emptiness.”
That may rattle some believers, but it is a welcome reminder that saints, too, are only human, and that stories of dauntless piety tend to be false. The letters — which Mother Teresa wanted destroyed — may help chip away at the lacquer of myth that has been adhering to her since well before her death in 1997.
They reveal, too, a cannily willful nun, who tested the limits of her vow of strict obedience in her campaign to win permission to leave her order, the Loreto Sisters, to found the Missionaries of Charity, with the radical goal of going outside convent walls to live among the poor of Calcutta’s slums. “Please let me go,” she wrote in one of many insistent letters to her archbishop. “If the work be all human, it will die with me, if it be all His it will live for ages to come. Souls are being lost in the meantime.”
When the archbishop relented, the rest became history, until the revelation of the pain that haunted her down the decades.
“I think there is no suffering greater than what is caused by the doubts of those who want to believe,” wrote Flannery O’Connor, the Roman Catholic author whose stories traverse the landscape of 20th-century unbelief. “What people don’t realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course it is the cross. It is much harder to believe than not to believe.”
O’Connor suffered from isolation and debilitating illness, Mother Teresa from decades of spiritual emptiness. But — and here is the exemplary part, inspiring even by the standards of a secular age — they both shut up about it and got on with their work. Mother Teresa, sick with longing for a sense of the divine, kept faith with the sick of Calcutta. And now, dead for 10 years, she is poised to reach those who can at last recognize, in her, something of their own doubting, conflicted selves.

[

](http://www.nytimes.com/)