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Mickey
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Indeed. There are countless saints who have been grand witnesses for Christ…even in torture and death.
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Mickey
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But it appears that you are subverting the Truth of Scripture and lash out when this brought to your attention.
I am not subverting the truth (that is a very serious accusation) and I am not lashing out.
tqualey:
What would really be needed is that sometime during the roughly first 500 years of the Catholic Church (33AD - 500AD) there was evidence Apostles rebelling agianst Peter’s Authority Oh my. Why are you asking for evidence for rebellion against St Peter’s authority?
tqualey:
Your challenge is to respond not only without insult
I have insulted no one.
Far be it from me to censure the successors of the apostles, who with holy words consecrate the body of Christ, and who make us Christians. Having the keys of the kingdom of heaven, they judge men to some extent before the day of judgment, and guard the chastity of the bride of Christ. But, as I have before hinted, the case of monks is different from that of the clergy. The clergy feed Christ’s sheep; I as a monk am fed by them."
St. Jerome****
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Mickey
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Yes.
You need to know the meaning of the word “love” that was used each time. Check the Greek.
I love St Peter. And I have already said that he was a spokesman for the Apostles. Holy Orthodoxy has a deep and powerful veneration for St Peter. But I do not accept papal supremacy.
I believe he founded it first.
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Mickey
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…Indeed! That is something I love about St Peter…his boldness and courage!
May I correct you please. Jesus looked upon St Peter’s deep and sincere repentance more than anything else…his tears of repentance. That is why you read so many Church Fathers writing about tears of repentance as a type of baptism.
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Mickey
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Indeed, all are special in the eyes of the Lord. Remember, St John is often referred to as “the one whom Christ loved”.
St Peter is definitely a part of the foundation along with all the apostles and prophets with Christ as the Head.
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Mickey
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I do not check this forum everyday.
And now it is time to pray.
The Feast of the Nativity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is upon us followed shortly thereafter by the Feast of our Lord’s circumcision and then Theophany (the baptism of our Lord in the Jordan).
Please forgive me if I have offended anyone.
Have a blessed Nativity!
Christ is Born!
Glorify Him!
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elvisman
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Nice try, but no cigar.
**Jesus gave Peter - and Peter ALONE - the task of strenghthening his brothers *(i.e.,*****ALL of the original Bishops of the Church) after they lost faith. **Perhaps your confusion about Peter’s office is because you do not understand the Old Testament.
You must first understand that Matt. 16:17-19 is based on Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given “the key of the house of David,” which he authoritatively “opens” and “shuts”. Similarly, Jesus gave Peter the power to bind and loose, which he later gave the rest. However, it is highly significant that he singled-out Peter and gave it to him before anyone else.
You can deny this all day long but it doesn’t make it any less true. Most Protestants find their folly as well in the misunderstanding of OT types.
**St. Augustine once said, "The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old is unveiled in the New." Too many people cannot - or refuse - to understand his wisdom.
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Mickey
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cigar.I don’t smoke.
I have heard this apologetic from Scott Hahn. I do not recall reading any patristic sources, and if there are any, it is not a common interpretation. No….this Hahn interpretation is suspect.
In Revelation 3:7 Jesus quotes from Isaiah 22:22 and applies it to Himself. This is long after St Peter has reposed. Also, the passage uses “key” singular—which has Messianic implications.
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elvisman
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**Nice. Simply dismiss the obvious correlation because you don’t like Scott Hahn and don’t understand the polyvalent symbolism of Isaiah 22:22. **
I also like the way you call upon the Fathers to dismiss the Isaiah reference, while dismissing EVERYTHING else they said about Peter’s Supremacy like: Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian of Carthage, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ephraim the Syrian, Ambrose of Milan, Jerome and Augustine – ALL of whom call upon Matt. 16:16-19 to refer to Peter as the preeminent, supreme earthly head of the Apostles and the Church.
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Nicea325
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Originally Posted by Mickey
It is suspect based on what? Your prejudices?
U-huh and Jesus gave the KEYS to Peter and Peter alone,something you keep kicking to curb simply because it clashes with your agendas.In the Old Testament, there was the authoritarian Seat of Moses (Matthew 23:2), which was handed down to Joshua and subsequent Jewish leaders after Moses’ death. The New Testament Chair of Peter is directly analogous to the Old Testament Seat of Moses.
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Mickey
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No. Based on lack of patristics.
They all received the keys when they received the power to bind and loose.
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Mickey
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the obvious correlation because you don’t like Scott Hahn and don’t understand the polyvalent symbolism of Isaiah 22:22. No. Because Scott Hahn is not a Church Father and his personal interpretations are not convincing.
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Nicea325
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Based on lack of patristics? Nope! Plenty of patristics rebuking your claims.Not according to scripture:
PAPACY & APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION Primacy of Peter
Mt 16:18 - upon this rock (Peter) I will build my church
Mt 16;19 - give you keys of the kingdom; power to bind & loose
Lk 22:32 - Peter’s faith will strengthen his brethren
Jn 21:17 - given Christ’s flock as chief shepherd
Mk 16:7 - angel sent to announce Resurrection to Peter
Lk 24:34 - risen Jesus first appeared to Peter
Acts 1:13-26 - headed meeting which elected Matthias
Acts 2:14 - led Apostles in preaching on Pentecost
Acts 2:41 - received first converts
Acts 3:6-7 - performed first miracle after Pentecost
Acts 5:1-11 - inflicted first punishment: Ananias & Saphira
Acts 8:21 - excommunicated first heretic, Simon Magnus
Acts 10:44-46 - received revelation to admit Gentiles into Church
Acts 15:7 - led first council in Jerusalem
Acts 15:19 - pronounces first dogmatic decision
Gal 1:18 - after conversion, Paul visits chief Apostle
*Gal 2:11-14 - I opposed Cephas to his face for his hypocrisy
Peter’s name always heads list of Apostles: Mt 10;14; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13
“Peter and his companions” Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7
Spoke for Apostles - Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 8:45; 12:41; Jn 6:69
Peter’s name occurs 195 times, more than all the rest put together
Really? They all received keys? Chapter and verses…
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Nicea325
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And you are not a church father either…and? Is that all you can muster? Sounds like a poor excuse.No. Because Scott Hahn is not a Church Father and his personal interpretations are not convincing.
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Mickey
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Of course not.
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Nicea325
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The Law of First Mention…
When something is first mentioned in the Bible, the meaning of it remains the same throughout the rest of the Bible. When GOD gave authority to someone in Scripture, HE changed the name of that person.
When something is first mentioned in the Bible, the meaning of it remains the same throughout the rest of the Bible. When GOD gave authority to someone in Scripture, HE changed the name of that person.
- GOD renamed Abram to Abraham when He made him the ‘Father of a Multitude of Nations’, in Gen 17:5. HE gave Abraham ‘primacy’ over all other men.
- GOD renamed Sara to Sarah when HE made her the ‘Mother of Nations’ in Gen 17:15-16. HE gave Sarah ‘primacy’ over all other women.
- GOD renamed Jacob to Israel, the name of the Jewish Nation, and Jacob became the first Israeli in Gen 32:29.
- GOD renamed Simon to Peter in Matt 16:18, thus giving him ‘primacy’ over all of the Apostles. Why else would GOD give a new name to Simon?
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Nicea325
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Please provide chapter and verses confirming the other 11 received KEYS?
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Mickey
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We were discussing Isaiah and the key (singular). Now you have cut and pasted a bunch of verses.
Go back and read the thread. Hint: Christ said “I will give you the keys…” with the power to bind and loose. Then in Matthew 18 gives all the apostles the power to bind and loose.
There is also patristic support.
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elvisman
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**I also addressed your lack of understanding of polyvalent symbolism and the testimonies of the Early church Fathers about Peter’s Primacy.No. Because Scott Hahn is not a Church Father and his personal interpretations are not convincing.
Care to address those things with more than a one-sentence answer?**
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