MOVED: Was Peter the Rock?

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Not only that but he discredits men like Scott Hahn and Steve Ray because they are apologist. He provided the classic and historical case of “proof-text” some ECF passages in an attempt to debunk Peter as the sole person who received the keys.

Heard it all and read it all. Unbelievable!
 
Hi, Mickey,

How nice of you to send a post… for a while there I thought you had left the thread.

Seriously, though, considering the quality of your responses, I really do not know why you bothered. You answered nothing, you continued to evade and simply repeated your own distorted view of Scripture, Tradition and even history. This is not intended to be either insulting or sarcastic - just spelling out that your non-answers have fallen very short of the mark.

Considering that I have reflected on the Ephesian reference you gave and concluded it had no relevance to this thread and asked you to clarify it - and you failed to do so… and it was you who gave the sarcastic remark.

I have concluded that you are simply not interested in honest dialogue. And, as a Child of God, I can certainly ask God to bless you. Is there a problem with that?

God bless
Read it….and reflect.
Are you saying that St Peter is above the others because he got more ink? Oh my!

Indeed! There are lessons with each Scriptural passage. But one of those lessons is not that St Peter was above the others. St Peter himself would be appalled at such a claim.
On the contrary. The keys are linked with the authority to bind and loose.
Yes.
I am inventing nothing. It is called Sacred Tradition.
I know.

St James was in charge of the first Church council in the Book of Acts.

Of course not…nor the authority of the successors of the others.

Your posts are laced with veiled insults and sarcasm. And then you have the audacity to end it with “God bless”. This seems less than sincere.

Besides, did you know that only a priest or bishop has the honour of bestowing a blessing by authority of his Holy Orders?

PS—It is very difficult to respond to you when you post inside the grey box. It would be great if you could respond in the proper manner. Thanks!
 
There is no need for ad hominems. Cite your sources when you post. If your ad hominems persist you will go on ignore. 😉
ad hominem was clearly defined many post ago. Please find it and read it. What was posted was NOT an ad hominem.
 
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Children…
 
Hi, Mickey,

My last post was much harsher than I intended and I apologize. 🙂

Actually, we were NOT discussing Isaiah. We were clearly discussing Matthew 16:18 - the only verse which contains the discourse of Christ to Peter in front of the other Eleven Apostles in which KEYS are mentioned. Matthew 18 identifies that Christ gave all of the Apostles the authority to bind and lose - but, you have jumped to the conclusion that THE KEYS went with this. This is simply not the case and appears to be simply your interpretation.

Your accusation of others ‘cutting and pasting’ other verses is simply not true. Everything needed to address this topic is located in the 16th Chapter of Matthew. Sticking with this will eliminate any need for cutting and for pasting - and that is because it is all there.

By shifting your responses back and forth, you are giving more than impression of changing the topic - if not outright evading it. To avoid this growing impression - simply respond to the question presented. I think it is quite safe to say that this straight forward approach will cut through a lot of smoke.

Another area of concern is your refusal to acknowledge that NONE of the ECF (East or West) prior to 550AD disagreed with Peter (and his successors) being in Charge, tried to establish their own authority equal to or superior to Peter (and his successors) or broke away in an effort to establish their own church. There were many comments about the Bishop of Rome from the ECF - but, to the best of my recollection, they were supportinve. Now, if I am wrong here - just provide the citation for this ECF arguing against the Primacy of Peter. Here is the challenge, let me encourage you to rise to the occasion.🙂

There are many literate people on this list - most of them have called your hand on how you are NOT answering the question presented. Peter, not his confession is the Rock. Peter, Not the other Apostles was given the KEYS - this is the unique symbol of authority. You received excellent references on the Primacy of Peter - and simply dismiss them. I realize that these verses do not coinside with your belief about the Primacy of Peter - so, why not take one of these verses, and discuss on a new thread you can open on this matter. 🙂 I really think Matthew 16 addresses this topic.

God bless

God bless
We were discussing Isaiah and the key (singular). Now you have cut and pasted a bunch of verses. :confused:

Go back and read the thread. Hint: Christ said “I will give you the keys…” with the power to bind and loose. Then in Matthew 18 gives all the apostles the power to bind and loose.

There is also patristic support.
 
Hi, Nicea325

👍

God bless
Yes.Want some ECF support of Peter’s primacy? All of the verses posted are clearly show a primacy there or else I would have not posted them if they had no reference to Peter.

I beg your pardon? NO WHERE in Matthew 18:18 does Jesus give other Apostles the keys.NO WHERE!

18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Where in that verse does he mention or even hint keys?

Matt 16:19: And I will give [action] you (Peter,singular) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”

Notice the conjunction…and?
 
What would you like to address Elvis? You keep changing subjects as I answer. :confused:

I have many patristic sources. Furthermore, sometimes you speak to St Peter’s “primacy”…other times you refer to his “supremacy”. Which is it?
Mickey -
I was talking about all of your curt, one-phrase answers. I’m not changing anything. If you have something of substance to add to the conversation, let’s have it. Otherwise, all you have are smug, abrubt comebacks - but no substance.

I speak of the Bible’s obvious references to Peter’s Primacy - and supreme authority over the Church as ordained by Christ himself.
 
Good points from another thread
Protestant Scholars Agree: Peter is the Rock

Here are five of the more than two dozen quotes I have from heavyweight Protestant scholars regarding the identity of “the rock” in Matthew 16:18.

W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann

“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. “To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter,” Albright says, “among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence. The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence, rather it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure, his behavior would have been of far less consequence. Precisely because Peter is pre-eminent and is the foundation stone of the Church that his mistakes are in a sense so important, but his mistakes never correspond to his teachings as the Prince of the Apostles.” (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

Peter as the Rock will be the foundation of the future community, the church. Jesus here uses Aramaic and so only the Aramaic word which would serve His purpose. In view of the background in verse 19, one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as the faith or the confession of Peter. (Ibid.)

Donald A. Carson (Baptist)

“On the basis of the distinction between ‘petros’ . . . and ‘petra’ . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere ‘stone,’ it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the ‘rock’ . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken ‘rock’ to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between ‘petros’ and ‘petra’ simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine ‘petra’ could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been ‘lithos’ (‘stone’ of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .” (Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)

Oscar Cullman (Protestant Scholar)

“But what does Jesus mean when He says: ‘On this rock I will build my church’? The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in vew of the probably different setting of the story. For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of ‘thou art rock’ and ‘on this rock I will build’ shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name Rock. He appoints Peter, the impulsive, enthusiastic, but not persevering man in the circle, to be the foundation of His ecclesia [church]. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.” (Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich), [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1968], 6:108).

Donald Hagner (Contemporary Evangelical)

"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy" (Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

David Hill (Presbyterian)

“It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the ‘rock’ as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.” (The Gospel of Matthew, New Century Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972], 261)
 
When Christ said to Peter “On this rock I will build my Church” ,the Orthodox Church doesn’t believe it was talking about Peter himself but on his confession of faith that Christ is the Son of God.

How do I know if the Catholic interpretation is correct that Peter himself is the rock that the Church will be built on being the Catholic Church.

I don’t know which Church to believe.
 
When Christ said to Peter “On this rock I will build my Church” ,the Orthodox Church doesn’t believe it was talking about Peter himself but on his confession of faith that Christ is the Son of God.

How do I know if the Catholic interpretation is correct that Peter himself is the rock that the Church will be built on being the Catholic Church.

I don’t know which Church to believe.
It depends on whether one believes that the Holy Spirit dwells among the believers -or whether one believes that the Holy Spirit dwells from within the Church who calls itself the “temple of the Holy Spirit” (The Catholic Church).

In the bible, there are accounts of the earliest Church Fathers declaring whether or not gentile Christians should be circumcised… This is evidence that there is in fact a hierarchical leadership within Christianity here on earth, and that Jesus did give authority to men to decide on these things.

If one believes that Peter was not the rock, then one should also believe that there are no Christian leaders as well, which is shown otherwise in the bible… The very same bible we’ve all come to love and trust.
 
When Christ said to Peter “On this rock I will build my Church” ,the Orthodox Church doesn’t believe it was talking about Peter himself but on his confession of faith that Christ is the Son of God.

How do I know if the Catholic interpretation is correct that Peter himself is the rock that the Church will be built on being the Catholic Church.

I don’t know which Church to believe.
Did you read from the beginning of this thread?

How about you go through the exchange and then you can ask more questions and we can answer them.

In the meantime, much of what you are looking for has been posted here.
 
Hi, PaultheApostle,

While I think Benedictus2 gave you the best answer, let me give you more a Cliff’s Notes version that may be of benefit.

The take home message is that there is NO single scriptural reference on which our Catholic Faith is based. This is true for several reasons - the main one being is that the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible! (not the other way around)!!

The second issue is that there are an abundance of references for Peter being the recognized leader of the Apostles and that this leadership was ordained by God from all eternity. Here are a couple of references you may find helpful:

scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html

catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp

The third issue is that Christ promised that His Spirit would keep the Church from error - He did not promise that the leaders of the Church would be holy. Yes, I admit, having holy leaders is certainly a wonderful experience - but, that was not the promise. We can easily see how Peter was a sinful man. Every Pope since Peter has followed his example in that way… but, none of them denied Christ to His Face like Peter did!

Public scandal by leaders of the Catholic Church has lead to many divisions. Pride, vanity, vain glory and the usual trappings of lust, greed, gluttony, drunkeness has been present in the visible Church. Our Faith is in Christ - and that is where we are to keep our eyes and heart.

Seriously, if Benedict XVI were to run off with some nun - I would be shocked and scandalized - but, would not give up my Catholic Faith. In such a case, Benedict, the Successor of Peter, would not have taught error - just failed to live the Truth in his own life.

No easy answers here - but, there is a simple one: Christ picked Peter to lead the Church Christ founded - and here we are today.

God bless
When Christ said to Peter “On this rock I will build my Church” ,the Orthodox Church doesn’t believe it was talking about Peter himself but on his confession of faith that Christ is the Son of God.

How do I know if the Catholic interpretation is correct that Peter himself is the rock that the Church will be built on being the Catholic Church.

I don’t know which Church to believe.
 
On this forum I see that there are many faithful people to the Catholic Church,I left the Catholic Church for 16 years going to the Orthodox Churchs where they believe the Catholic Church is heretical.

I struggle with doubts about the Catholic Church and whether it has the fullness of Grace and the Holy Spirit or whether it’s doctrines and beliefs are heretical or false teachings.

For the last 2 years I have been attending the Catholic Church again and I’ve been learning about their beliefs but I’m in between the Orthodox and Catholic Church.

Pray for me Brothers and Sisters in my serious confusion.
 
Hi, PaultheApostle,

You will be in our prayers.

God bless

Tom
On this forum I see that there are many faithful people to the Catholic Church,I left the Catholic Church for 16 years going to the Orthodox Churchs where they believe the Catholic Church is heretical.

I struggle with doubts about the Catholic Church and whether it has the fullness of Grace and the Holy Spirit or whether it’s doctrines and beliefs are heretical or false teachings.

For the last 2 years I have been attending the Catholic Church again and I’ve been learning about their beliefs but I’m in between the Orthodox and Catholic Church.

Pray for me Brothers and Sisters in my serious confusion.
 
I’d also appreciate it if people don’t assume I’ve run off and vanished if I have not posted for 48 hours, like one individual above. I have a life I enjoy living, and I also prefer to think and study, instead of just recite talking points.

AIL
I hope that you will not go missing like our OP.
As I was afraid, he has run off and vanished:(
 
Fear not, Adrift,

This appears to just another dysfunctional way of seeking attention… as opposed to merely responding appropriately and becoming part of a positive dialogue.

God bless
As I was afraid, he has run off and vanished:(
 
As I was afraid, he has run off and vanished:(
Fear not, Adrift,

This appears to just another dysfunctional way of seeking attention… as opposed to merely responding appropriately and becoming part of a positive dialogue.

God bless
I can sympathize with AIL.

Put yourself in his shoes. Suppose you have firmly believed something for a long time. You start a thread thinking you’ve got an iron clad case.

Yet a few days later, bang, it all goes crashing.

What do you do? How do you deal with it?

You see, I think once he realized that Peter is indeed the Rock, then the implications for him are quite staggering.

Just think about it, even the Orthodox are trying to interpret this verse in this manner when for the 1000 years prior to the schism, they have believe the same as we do.

Accepting Peter as the Rock eventually leads to Rome. To avoid this conclusion you need to come up with a very creative ecclessiology.

I suppose he is now trying to reason around it and maybe salvage the last vestiges of his protestant ecclesiology in the best way he can.
 
Hi, Benedictus2,

Yes, I see you point - but, I really think sympathy is the last thing AIL needs at this time.

He came into the group with a ‘show no quarter’ attitude - he had the answers and was going to make sure we all heard what he had to say. Well, we heard him and then each of us in our own way, refuted his arguments. But, this is where we must all reaize that this was not some kind of academic debate - e.g., who was the Egyptian king who slaughtered the Hebrew male children? Confronted with the almost certain evidence that Peter was the Rock - and that ultimately, Christ founded His Church on Peter - (and that would be the Catholic Church with the Bishop of Rome being in Vicar of Christ on Earth) what do we do with that information?

While arguing against overwhelming evidence because one always thought a particular way is simply not intellectually honest - when we face our Lord and Savior at our particular judgment - we can expect a damning punishment for not following our conscience and doing the right thing by joining Christ’s Church lead at this time by Benedict XVI,

Giving AIL the informaiton he needs is something that we do in love and charity - and this is an unflinchig love and a highly focused charity. AIL we need to stand up for what is right or simply fall by the side of the road (Mark 4).

God bless
I can sympathize with AIL.

Put yourself in his shoes. Suppose you have firmly believed something for a long time. You start a thread thinking you’ve got an iron clad case.

Yet a few days later, bang, it all goes crashing.

What do you do? How do you deal with it?

You see, I think once he realized that Peter is indeed the Rock, then the implications for him are quite staggering.

Just think about it, even the Orthodox are trying to interpret this verse in this manner when for the 1000 years prior to the schism, they have believe the same as we do.

Accepting Peter as the Rock eventually leads to Rome. To avoid this conclusion you need to come up with a very creative ecclessiology.

I suppose he is now trying to reason around it and maybe salvage the last vestiges of his protestant ecclesiology in the best way he can.
 
Hi, PaultheApostle,

Are you still on this thread? Please note the references I provided in Post #341. I am interested in what you think about this in relationship to the question you asked on the Primacy of Peter.

God bless
When Christ said to Peter “On this rock I will build my Church” ,the Orthodox Church doesn’t believe it was talking about Peter himself but on his confession of faith that Christ is the Son of God.

How do I know if the Catholic interpretation is correct that Peter himself is the rock that the Church will be built on being the Catholic Church.

I don’t know which Church to believe.
 
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