MOVED: Was Peter the Rock?

[GaryTaylor]

apparently so. he seems to have a particular degree of hostility, so im treating him with extra tolerance. id really like to find out what makes him tick. hes not the average pentacostal. most are pretty fun to converse with. part of me wants to really take him on, but for one thing benedictus is already doing a wonderful job of that. so im gonna play good cop this time out. peace

Ah, I see you haven’t let opposition wear you to the bone today. And the new day bought a new attitude of commitment, effort and clearer understanding.

I’ve found that many times comments are intentional in there effort to tug at heart strings in a sad effort to sway emotion, just for the sake of it. No logic or understanding and certainly no compassion for another is involved. Just comtempt which points right back at the self.

I don’t know how many times I found myself so disturbed from a comment, I would immediatly want to react with a comment. I’ve also come to realize these are indeed the moments that I must walk away and reflect to process my own emotion. From there I could honestly step outside and then comment objectively. Many times easiler said than done, none the less this should be our constant refrain.

God Bless, GT

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Benedict,

One can have more degrees than a thermometer … but, if their behavior is as snobbish as that poor and evasive post offered by Jesus700 - they really need to pray about the Charity and Brotherly Love that the Bible addresses.

Tradition tells us that when the Christians (that would be the first Catholics) were being tortured and murdered in the Coliseum the spectators said, “Look how they love one another!” Quite different from, “Look how the berate and scorn one another!!”

Considering that Jesus700 has not yet deigned to respond to the two posts I challenged him on, I think he has spoken volumes about something far more important thatn education - and, that would be character. He has not yet learned that being one is far different from having one.

God bless

nope. just a high school education…barely! and im not the brightest bulb in the batch. im postive that tqualey is much more educated than i. as is just about everyone here im sure. even the 5th graders…lol! and thank you for the prayers. ill take all of them i can get. Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

A wondeful piece by Fr Robert Barron for those who are not checking his website

Fr Barron Comments on Leaving the Church

wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/Fr-Barron-comments-on-Leaving-The-Church.aspx

Interesting, not many make it back. And the ones who do have an alarming testimony which confirms truth.

God Bless, GT

 

[benidict]

Of lies. So I think I like being the enemy

ill second that. and true to fundamentalist form, there is alot of half truths, and out of context verses…ssdt. dt stands for different thread. im sure you can figure out the rest. if they could just put aside their blind rage for a minute, and converse rationally, they may just actually see that what we are saying IS biblically and historicly correct. your explanation of where Jesus pronounced peter the rock was simply astounding! and it painted a very vivid picture. i think it bothers some, that we as Catholics actually DO know our bibles, and more importantly, the history behind what was written, and how it backs up our faith. nicely done. i believe the Holy Spirit is speaking through you, to reach through alot of misconceptions and anger on the part of the op. my prayers and encouragement are yours. Peace

 

[tqualey]

Hi, GaryTaylor,

This is not only an excellent post … more importantly, it is timely!

God bless

Ah, I see you haven’t let opposition wear you to the bone today. And the new day bought a new attitude of commitment, effort and clearer understanding.

I’ve found that many times comments are intentional in there effort to tug at heart strings in a sad effort to sway emotion, just for the sake of it. No logic or understanding and certainly no compassion for another is involved. Just comtempt which points right back at the self.

I don’t know how many times I found myself so disturbed from a comment, I would immediatly want to react with a comment. I’ve also come to realize these are indeed the moments that I must walk away and reflect to process my own emotion. From there I could honestly step outside and then comment objectively. Many times easiler said than done, none the less this should be our constant refrain.

God Bless, GT

 

[SolarWinds63]

You cannot surely say that Peter was the rock on which Jesus intended to build His church??? In Matthew 16:18, the Greek word Christ uses is ‘petra’ and means ‘small rock or pebble’. ‘Petros’, however, means ‘Peter’ and Jesus is using a play on the similarity in sounds of these two words to illustrate how unsuitable Peter would be as a basis for His Church. It is a JOKE that Christ was making, in my opinion ( and Derek Prince’s, too - see his book Foundational Truths, pages 3-5) - for how do you build a church of almighty God on a pebble?
Also - Peter was called ‘Satan’ by Jesus in Matthew 16:22-23, Peter famously denies Jesus three times a little later on in the Gospels and, even after Pentecost, Peter was reprimanded by Paul for compromising concerning the truth of the Gospel (Galatians 2:11-14).
So please ask the Holy Spirit to tell you - was Peter ever really supposed to be the rock on which the Church was built? In my opinion (and Derek Prince’s and anyone who reads the New Testament - especially, if possible, in its original Greek) he was used by Christ as a way of showing how very irresponsible a person he was (though a born leader) - and how unsuitable, therefore, he was as a basis for the Church.
Let us remember Paul’s words regarding foundations, inspired by the Holy Spirit: ‘For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ’ (1 Corinthians 3:11)

Dude you are twisting the entire words of Jesus and completely degenerating Peter. In order to scrutinize the RCC foundation that it is the first true Christian church founded and led by Peter the Apostle of Jesus Christ.

Protesters (Protestants) read a complete revision of a Bible from the RCC. Revised by a man who was a battered child, hated by his father and saw 4 siblings die. What you call this is a manic depressant. Who took his depression and paranoia out on the RCC. He became a lawyer when he was at Trent to satisfy his father, and attacked the RCC for rich land barons and wrote horrible letters against the peasantry in Germany during there revolt and thousands of them died. So all protestants (protesters) base there belief on a King’s right, and a manic, paranoid depressant. Teachings who in fact got to be pretty rich and famous and a religion named after him…

 

[benidict]

Ah, I see you haven’t let opposition wear you to the bone today. And the new day bought a new attitude of commitment, effort and clearer understanding.

I’ve found that many times comments are intentional in there effort to tug at heart strings in a sad effort to sway emotion, just for the sake of it. No logic or understanding and certainly no compassion for another is involved. Just comtempt which points right back at the self.

I don’t know how many times I found myself so disturbed from a comment, I would immediatly want to react with a comment. I’ve also come to realize these are indeed the moments that I must walk away and reflect to process my own emotion. From there I could honestly step outside and then comment objectively. Many times easiler said than done, none the less this should be our constant refrain.

God Bless, GT

thanks. it helps alot to keep a sense of humor. i get cussed out on a daily basis. just part of the job. also have “people” trying to blow us up and kill us. so Jesus700 is really not that aggravating to me. i find most peoples insults funny. its like watching some one elses toddler have a fit in the store…if it was your toddler, then i apologize in advance for my amusement! peace

 

[benidict]

Hi, Benedict,

One can have more degrees than a thermometer … but, if their behavior is as snobbish as that poor and evasive post offered by Jesus700 - they really need to pray about the Charity and Brotherly Love that the Bible addresses.

Tradition tells us that when the Christians (that would be the first Catholics) were being tortured and murdered in the Coliseum the spectators said, “Look how they love one another!” Quite different from, “Look how the berate and scorn one another!!”

Considering that Jesus700 has not yet deigned to respond to the two posts I challenged him on, I think he has spoken volumes about something far more important thatn education - and, that would be character. He has not yet learned that being one is far different from having one.

God bless

i completly agree my friend. i think we are dealing with someone with alot of anger, some times you can use a stick, other times a carrot. in this case we need both. i wont give up until he acknowledges that we are not his enemy. lol! i dont think he knows the true meaning of that word. staring face to face with folks that are wanting to kill you ( and yes, vise versa). is having an enemy. not someone who may hold doctrinal differences. a term that would be better, would probably be estrangement. Peace

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Benedictus2

Great observations very well presented.

God bless

Tom

Actually, if anything it characterizes evangelicals.

Here’s why:
First: Satan here was telling a lie but the lie looks so reasonable Peter unsuspectingly concludes it must be good. Well, evangelicals have been following false doctrines from the beginning. They are lies of the devil. But of course, like Peter they do not even have any idea that they are lies.

Second: Some evangelicals are into the prosperity Gospel thing. Probably even you Jesus7000. Yet, what did Jesus say after telling satan to get behind Him? He said - a true follower will take up his cross, and deny himself in order to follow Christ. The prosperity Gospel is a corruption of that teaching, another lie of the devil.

So based on the above, I would say that Evnagelical characterize verse 23.

You could have fooled me. If you love God then you would not mangle His Word so.

Questionable prncipalities. Follow the advice I gave you at my first post and you will learn. Extend your reading beyond this third rate authors.

Get hold of Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict. That’s a good start though you might struggle a bit at first with it.

 

[pablope]

Actually, if anything it characterizes evangelicals.

Here’s why:
First: Satan here was telling a lie but the lie looks so reasonable Peter unsuspectingly concludes it must be good. Well, evangelicals have been following false doctrines from the beginning. They are lies of the devil. But of course, like Peter they do not even have any idea that they are lies.

Second: Some evangelicals are into the prosperity Gospel thing. Probably even you Jesus7000. Yet, what did Jesus say after telling satan to get behind Him? He said - a true follower will take up his cross, and deny himself in order to follow Christ. The prosperity Gospel is a corruption of that teaching, another lie of the devil.

So based on the above, I would say that Evnagelical characterize verse 23.

You could have fooled me. If you love God then you would not mangle His Word so.

Questionable prncipalities. Follow the advice I gave you at my first post and you will learn. Extend your reading beyond this third rate authors.

Get hold of Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict. That’s a good start though you might struggle a bit at first with it.

Good insight Benedictus…

 

[pablope]

Of lies. So I think I like being the enemy

Yes, I agree…we are the enemy of their lies…the opposite of theirs…

 

[pablope]

apparently so. he seems to have a particular degree of hostility, so im treating him with extra tolerance. id really like to find out what makes him tick. hes not the average pentacostal. most are pretty fun to converse with. part of me wants to really take him on, but for one thing benedictus is already doing a wonderful job of that. so im gonna play good cop this time out. peace

HI, Benedict…yes, benedictus is doing an outstanding job…we can just support his efforts here…keep safe out there…i placed your name and your crew for prayers in the adoration chapel last Dec 8, and will do it again today when I go for a visit.

Pablo

 

[pablope]

Hi, Benedict,

One can have more degrees than a thermometer … but, if their behavior is as snobbish as that poor and evasive post offered by Jesus700 - they really need to pray about the Charity and Brotherly Love that the Bible addresses.

Tradition tells us that when the Christians (that would be the first Catholics) were being tortured and murdered in the Coliseum the spectators said, “Look how they love one another!” Quite different from, “Look how the berate and scorn one another!!”

Considering that Jesus700 has not yet deigned to respond to the two posts I challenged him on, I think he has spoken volumes about something far more important thatn education - and, that would be character. He has not yet learned that being one is far different from having one.

God bless

Hi T…I noticed he has not come back yet since his last post. We can just show our brotherly love and charity for him, I guess…that he takes to heart what he reads in the Bible and let it grow in him.

Blessings…

 

[John7]

Hi T…I noticed he has not come back yet since his last post.

J700 is afraid/scared

2 Tim 1:7
For God has not given us the spirit of fear;
but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

run away, run away

 

[tqualey]

Hi, SolarWinds63,

Welcome to CAF! I think you will find (hmmmm… make that “…have already found…”) this a intellectually stimulating forum - and one that provides real insights.

Now, let’s see what we have here…

Dude you are twisting the entire words of Jesus and completely degenerating Peter. In order to scrutinize the RCC foundation that it is the first true Christian church founded and led by Peter the Apostle of Jesus Christ.

What an excellent phrase, “…twisting the entire words of Jesus…” One of the things that I have always found amazing is the convoluted mental contortions needed to arrive at the conclusion some have presented. Not only does it take a complete suspension of normal reading and comprehension ability - but, an utter disregard and contempt for the history of the Early Catholic Church as it thrived under wave after wave of murderous persecution. During this time the strength and integrity of the Catholic Church was made clear for all who would see.

Protesters (Protestants) read a complete revision of a Bible from the RCC. Revised by a man who was a battered child, hated by his father and saw 4 siblings die.

While background has a lot of influence on a person - and he certainly was not responsible for being battered or the loss of his siblings - ultimately, we must take responsibility for our actions. This presentation could be viewed as ad hominum argument - and I would recommend this be avoided. He is still responsible for the actions he took - and that is the real issue. I neither excuse or praise an individual for their background - we all have one, and every since the we were expeled from the Garden, we have all had various issues.

Actually, SolarWinds63, I think you left out Obsessive Compulsive Disorder from this list… But, I have no argument with you after-the-fact diagnosis.

What you call this is a manic depressant. Who took his depression and paranoia out on the RCC. He became a lawyer when he was at Trent to satisfy his father, and attacked the RCC for rich land barons and wrote horrible letters against the peasantry in Germany during there revolt and thousands of them died. So all protestants (protesters) base there belief on a King’s right, and a manic, paranoid depressant. Teachings who in fact got to be pretty rich and famous and a religion named after him…

Luther appears to have had a real contempt for the Pesants - the only group he had more venom for was the Jews - who were to have converted after his efforts at reform took hold. Looks like another ‘great theory’ down the drain!

I appreciate your posts

God bless

 

[Nicea325]

I’m trying to get the joke about a church being built on a pebble…but I think that because Jesus preached so highly of the meek, that he wouldn’t joke about it like that. I looked at the passages again to see if it made sense to me, but I really don’t think it was meant as a joke. You are definitely right, there are all kinds of metaphores in the Bible and some of them sound like scarcasm, but I understand this particular one to be His way of setting up leadership for his church after his death, not poking fun at one of his disciples. When I think of how the apostles knew to apoint a “replacement” for Judas’ leadership position after his death, I have to assume they knew He was serious about laying the foundations of how His church’s leadership was to be organized. (For Judas’ successor they chose Matthias in Acts 1:12-26).They learned from Jesus that they had an obligation to fill the position left after one of them died, and to continue the church that was “built” as it was designed by God.

I’m not a scholar by any means, so I’m curious if anyone can help answer this question: If Jesus were not apointing Peter as the first Pope, where else in scripture would the apostles have learned that they needed to continue filling their leadership positions after one of them died?

If Jesus were not apointing Peter as the first Pope, where else in scripture would the apostles have learned that they needed to continue filling their leadership positions after one of them died

This what I do not comprehend many non-Catholics. They believe continuation of an office (bishopric) is false or an invention by the RCC. However,the majority of non-Catholics also have leadership positions,which are also continued. Seems to me like a double standard exists.

As for you question? Do the names Titus and Timothy ring a bell?

 

[AnIrishLutheran]

Interesting thread. I’d like to challenge several statements from up above:

"The petros/petra controversy is non existent.
When Jesus spoke - He spoke in Aramaic. The Aramaic word for Rock is Kepha.
This is how it would have gone. “Simon Bar Jonah, You are Kepha and upon this kepha I >will build my Chuch” Straight English translation : “Simon Bar Jonah, You are Rock and >upon this rock I will build my Church”.

The petros/petra controversy most certainly exists.

“When Jesus spoke - He spoke in Aramaic.” How do you know? Archaeology at Nazareth indicates the residents likely were polyglots – Aramaic at the synagogue, Greek at the market and probably most everywhere else. Even in Rome, where you’d think Latin was primary, in the 1st century it was really Greek. Jesus grew up in the mish-mash culture of Galilee, after all, not in heavily Jewish Judea.

And even if you’re right, Matthew wrote down and correctly reflected what Jesus said in Greek. So you need to deal with the Greek as we have it, not with the Aramaic Jesus may or may not have spoken. What matters for us is the apostolic Scriptures as they stand written, not as they were not written.

An example you’d likely agree with: How do we know that the bread and wine in the Supper are really Jesus’ body and blood? Because he said, “This is my body.” As you may know, Aramaic doesn’t have a word for “is.” But that does not matter for us. We do not know with certainty of faith what language he said it in. But we know that the Scriptures clearly say, “This IS my body.” For us, that’s what matters.

If you want to say, “The truth Peter had just confessed was revealed to him by the Father: ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.’ This truth, which the Father proclaimed through Peter that day, is the foundation of the church,” that’s great. If you want to say that Jesus nicknamed Cephas “Petros,” “Rock,” so that he’d always remember the Rock-Solid Truth he’d confessed, great. But if you want to say that Cephas’ nickname inducts him into an office unique among the apostles, and then to say that this office has continued down to the current Bishop of Rome – well, that wrecks the play on words, doesn’t it? It’s not a play on words to call the Rock the Rock. It’s a play on words to call Peter a Rock because what he said was the Rock on which the Church is built.

More in a few minutes.

AIL

 

[AnIrishLutheran]

From above:

“To the best of my knowledge, Luther wound up doing quite a lot of picking and choosing. For example, here are two items for your consideration:
1.) For about 1,500 years (prior to Luther’s 95 Thesis in 1517) the Catholic Church had Seven Sacraments - Luther decided his followers only needed 2.
2.) The Catholic Church gave the world the Canon of Holy Scripture in about 400AD through the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Catholic Church) - Luther decided that Scripture Alone is the governing principle and that people could read the Bible and decide what they wanted to decide.”

Oh my. Regarding sacraments, perhaps I’ll start here:

1. Can you cite any church father who spoke of 7 sacraments? Can you even cite anyone at all before 1000 AD who spoke of 7 sacraments?
2. To us as Lutherans, what matters is not what the church said
3. The word “sacrament” is not used in Scripture the way we use it. It has different definitions to different people. Therefore, arguing about the number of sacraments is a bit silly.

The Lutheran Church has preferred the definition of Augustine, “Accedit verbum ad elementum et fit sacramentum,” “Add the word to the element and it becomes a sacrament.” A “sacrament,” then, includes an outward, material element, and Christ’s command and promise of grace connected with that material element (Augustine’s verbum). Defined that way, there are only two sacraments – Baptism and the Supper. None of the others have all the ingredients.

If you want to remove the requirement for a material element used by God’s command, in fact, the Augsburg Confession is willing to call Absolution a sacrament.

“The Catholic Church gave the world the Canon of Holy Scripture in about 400AD through the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Catholic Church)”

1. Would you please refer me to a list of canonical books from the 5th century which includes the Apocrypha?
2. Do you acknowledge that in 1st century Palestine, “the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms” Jesus referred to meant the Hebrew Scriptures, not to the apocryphal books? In other words, the distinction between the inspired OT books and the apocrypha predates even Christ, who gave it his approval.
3. Can you help me understand the difference between Luther’s “Sola Scriptura” and Cyril of Jerusalem in his Catechetical Lectures? Cyril instructed his catechumens:

“Concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell you these things, unless you receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures.”

“But take and hold that faith only as a learner and in profession, which is by the Church delivered to you, and is established from all Scripture … For the present, commit to memory the Faith *, merely listening to the words; and expect at the fitting season the proof of each of its parts from the Divine Scriptures. For the Articles of the Faith were not composed at the good pleasure of men: but the most important points chosen from all Scriptures, make up the one teaching of the Faith. And, as the mustard seed in a little grain contains many branches, thus also this Faith, in a few words, hath enfolded in its bosom the whole knowledge of godliness contained both in the Old and New Testaments. Behold, therefore, brethren and hold the traditions which ye now receive, and write them on the table of your hearts.”

So, I contend, Luther’s demand for proof from the Scriptures was a reaffirmation of Sola Scriptura. Luther certainly did not invent it.

AIL*

 

[pablope]

From above:

“To the best of my knowledge, Luther wound up doing quite a lot of picking and choosing. For example, here are two items for your consideration:
1.) For about 1,500 years (prior to Luther’s 95 Thesis in 1517) the Catholic Church had Seven Sacraments - Luther decided his followers only needed 2.
2.) The Catholic Church gave the world the Canon of Holy Scripture in about 400AD through the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Catholic Church) - Luther decided that Scripture Alone is the governing principle and that people could read the Bible and decide what they wanted to decide.”

I suggest that you start another thread so as not to hijack the derail this thread. Your thread and questions are too many. Forum rules say to break it up, and break it up into different subjects, as per your thread.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Jesus spoke to His Apostles in Aramaic. In Aramaic, Jesus would say to the Apostle Peter “you are Kepha, and upon this Kepha, I will build my church.” Kepha is Aramaic for Rock. The Gospel of Matthew was written originally in Aramaic, and later translated to the Koine Greek, which had feminine, neuter, and masculine words. The word petra (feminine) was proper to be used for rock, the translator used the word “petros” for the man since he could not use the feminine. In the Koine Greek of the first century, petra and petros meant exactly the same thing, just one female the other male or feminine/masculine better yet. This conlusion here isn’t even a debate.

The Roman Catholic Church began in 33 AD in Jerusalem, then moved office/church to Rome with the first Pope, St. Peter. The word Catholic is coined in the seven letters of Ignatius of Antioch before he’s feed to the Lions in Rome. The letters are still at the Vatican, by the way these letters date 104 AD. Yet Ignatius used this term for years prior to this. Also written in the letters is the church structure/Chain of Command. So all this is in full effect here for fact. The Baptism was also used from the time of Christ/John the Baptist. Its first called immersion then bapism by the Catholic Church. But this is done from day one.

Anyway I have to see what else you wrote I could quickly comment on here. Yes, as mentioned theres many question on this topic.

God Bless, GT