MOVIES: The Nativity Story

[Syele]

There is recorded testimony in the early Church that Mary didn’t suffer pains in childbirth, and** that of course would be because pain in childbirth is a consequence of original sin.**

As a protestant reading this thread (mainly because I wondered if the movie would be ok for kids to see), This surprises me. So do you believe that if you have really hard labor in childbirth that it’s because you aren’t right with God?

 

[Veritas41]

As a protestant reading this thread (mainly because I wondered if the movie would be ok for kids to see), This surprises me. So do you believe that if you have really hard labor in childbirth that it’s because you aren’t right with God?

No, not at all – original sin is different from personal sin. Original sin is the result of Adam and Eve’s fall from grace,something every human being as been born into (deprived of sanctifying grace in the soul) except for Our Lord and His Mother, Mary. Because of original sin we have death, illness, and pain in childbirth (read Genesis 3 about the curses God placed upon Adam and Eve after their fall).

 

[leaner]

As a protestant reading this thread (mainly because I wondered if the movie would be ok for kids to see), This surprises me. So do you believe that if you have really hard labor in childbirth that it’s because you aren’t right with God?

I’m sure I can’t change your mind here, but no…that’s not what we believe. – at least it’s not what I believe based on my Catholic upbringing. I think the issue is SINCE Catholics believe Mary was without original sin (not to mention any other sins), and SINCE physical pain came to humans THROUGH original sin of Adam and Eve, should Mary have felt pain in labor? – which would beg the question, would she have felt any other pains thru her lifetime?

I’m far from knowledgeable compared to many on these forums, but to just say “oh, so you believe labor pain is because you’re a sinner!!! you wacko Catholics” (not that you called us that, but many have) is a bit off base too. All human pain and suffering comes from the original sin of Adam and Eve. Life would be glorious, as promised by God had they not given in to the temptation in the garden. I hope that clarifies a little?

 

[Syele]

I’m sure I can’t change your mind here, but no…that’s not what we believe. – at least it’s not what I believe based on my Catholic upbringing. I think the issue is SINCE Catholics believe Mary was without original sin (not to mention any other sins), and SINCE physical pain came to humans THROUGH original sin of Adam and Eve, should Mary have felt pain in labor? – which would beg the question, would she have felt any other pains thru her lifetime?

I’m far from knowledgeable compared to many on these forums, but to just say “oh, so you believe labor pain is because you’re a sinner!!! you wacko Catholics” (not that you called us that, but many have) is a bit off base too. All human pain and suffering comes from the original sin of Adam and Eve. Life would be glorious, as promised by God had they not given in to the temptation in the garden. I hope that clarifies a little?

Only a little. As others pointed out, in Genesis it does say pains would intensify, not appear where there were none. And It doess seem quite logical to me to conclude that if Mary had no pain in labor because she was sinless that the opposite would also be true… the worse sinner would have more pain.

I wasn’t trying to call anyone wacko, I was simply taken aback by the idea. And wondered if it was even accurate, It reminds me of an old fad among protestants to say that any illness was always the result of sin and health a sign of righteousness. If I recall correctly some guys wrongfully claimed the same thing when Job was suffering.

 

[atsheeran]

In reply to the last post - I think it’s this person I’m quoting that has the official teaching. The last line here makes sense, that Mary chose to die in imitation of Christ, but still the Church is silent on this issue. From reading Ven. Mary of Agreda’s City of God, I do remember it saying that Our Lady did choose to die like her Son, but then like Jesus her soul was united again with her body and assumed into Heaven (again not a matter of Faith here).

But, yeah, I think this quote has the official teaching, that the Church is silent on this issue. Thanks, Veritas!

The dormition (i.e., “falling asleep”) of Mary has long been a feast in the east. However, the question of whether Mary actually died before her Assumption into heaven remains undefined. In proclaiming the dogma of the Assumption, Pope Pius XII used language that was ambiguous enough to be interpreted both ways: “we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.” (Munificentissimus Deus, emphasis added)

 

[child_of_God85]

I heard an audio trailer of the movie and it convinced me to stay away from the movie.

When using Luke 1:28 to reflect the annunciation, the film uses the Protestant interpretation of: “highly favored;” rather then the Catholic interpretation of “Hail, full of Grace.” To some that might seem like a small and petty reason not see a film, yet there is a huge difference between Mary being highly favored by God, versus Mary being literally full of Grace, because if Mary was NOT full of Grace, then she probably sinned, and she was not quite the person the Church sees in Our Lady. So, that single point is enough for me to know this is a Protestant movei, and Protestants simply do not have a correct view of Mary.

Actually you can hear the angel saying ‘hail Mary’. Not very loud, but it’s still a very powerful scene. They portray it during the day with Mary sitting under and olive tree. You can hear the words Hail Mary in the wind. I felt chills hearing it, but in a good way.
I highly recomend the movie. It’s beautifully done. They had Catholic and Protostants working on the movie, so I think both sides should be happy. Plus the world premier was held at the Vatican. Not too mention the high review from the Bishops.
I want to see it again before it leaves theaters. It’s bee a while sinse I saw a Christian movie made with actual quality (the last being the Passion), not something that looks like it’s made for hallmark. This one really touched me deeply, and I just can’t say enough good things about it. Heres hoping Hollywood keeps making movies like this.

 

[Veritas41]

Only a little. As others pointed out, in Genesis it does say pains would intensify, not appear where there were none. And It doess seem quite logical to me to conclude that if Mary had no pain in labor because she was sinless that the opposite would also be true… the worse sinner would have more pain.

I wasn’t trying to call anyone wacko, I was simply taken aback by the idea. And wondered if it was even accurate, It reminds me of an old fad among protestants to say that any illness was always the result of sin and health a sign of righteousness. If I recall correctly some guys wrongfully claimed the same thing when Job was suffering.

But we’re talking about the difference between the consequences of original sin and personal sin. The health and wealth gospel people teach *personal *sin can lead to illness.

Here are the earliest references to Mary giving birth without pain, and notice they are from the first century when the apostle John was still alive (and to whom Jesus had entrusted the care of His mother):

The Ascension of Isaiah

“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (*Odes of Solomon *19 [A.D. 80]).

 

[CathCentrist]

I find it kinda sad, that when Passion came out, Catholics were commenting non Catholics shouldnt be hung up on certain scenes, and now I read Catholics getting hung up on semantics in what is a very good movie.

 

[jediliz]

You know, I had 12 years of Catholic School and never once did they say that Jesus was born “like sunlight passing through a Crystal”. I’ve never heard of this tradition (or is it Tradition with a Capital T?) before. Is this something new?

 

[matthew1624]

A beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful movie. I highly recommend it. I couldn’t help but tear up a couple of times. Again, awesome movie!

Shalom…

 

[Dorothy]

I don’t know about the childbirth issue, but I think that matter of: “Did Mary die or not” is crucial to being a Catholic, isn’t it?

I never got a decent catechesis (sp?), (singing nuns) but a pretty well-versed Catholic sits near me at work, and we talked about Mary one day and he told me Mary never died. She was assumed into heaven and her body became the sort of resurrected body that Christ had after rising from the dead.

I think one of his main points was that the tomb of Mary would have been holy spot and an important place for the early christians to visit, but there ws no such burial spot because she never died.

So this makes her the only human who never really died. She was spared that death and transformed into the perfect bodily form we are all supposed to get at the resurrection of the body.

NOTE: I could be wrong about all of the above, but somebody around here must know the official teaching.

The Church definitely teaches that Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul. And that is what we must believe as Catholics.

The Church is silent on whether she died first, and then was assumed into heaven; or whether she was assumed into heaven without dying first.

 

[st_ignatius110]

I think I have a problem with the tendency to force private revelations on other Catholics. Is it true that there is no official Church teaching the Mary labored with no pain? The only reason I have been given that this is correct is that Mary was born free from original sin. If this is the only reason then Christ Himself should have never suffered under the curse of death.

I personally watched the movie and really enjoyed it. There was nothing disrespectful about Mary or her parents. Just because her parents are saints does not mean that they were not shocked to hear of Mary’s pregnancy. Of course they would have been scared…their daughter could have been stoned to death!!! Mary was normal…why is wrong to use that word? Yes, she was/is the Mother of God but she was also a 14 year old HUMAN girl. Jesus had to have his diaper changed, he had to drink his mothers milk in order to survive, he had to be burped…does this take away from His Divinity? By no means. Instead, it shows that God humbled Himself and became human!

 

[st_ignatius110]

Catechism of the Council of Trent
Part 1 : The Creed
Article III

He is born of His Mother without any diminution of her maternal virginity, just as He afterwards went forth from the sepulchre while it was closed and sealed, and entered the room in which His disciples were assembled, the doors being shut; or not to depart from every-day examples,just as the rays of the sun penetrate without breaking or injuring in the least the solid substance of glass, so after a like but more exalted manner did Jesus Christ come forth from His mother’s womb without injury to her maternal virginity.

I have been told that because the Blessed Mothers virginity was kept intact then this means she did not suffer pain. However, nowhere does it say that she did not suffer pain. Could God not have kept her virginity intact through miraculous means?

 

[puzzleannie]

I had planned to make another comment about the movie but I see we have long since abandoned OP.

 

[CatholicSam]

We saw this movie yesterday and could find too many errors to count But it was still so adorable to see the little newborn Jesus! When He was first born and crying, and Mary and Joseph were just looking at Him for a long time, I felt like saying “Come on, Mary! Put him on the breast already!!!”

After I realized this movie didn’t have the level of research needed to make it another “Passion of the Christ,” I just sat back and tried to enjoy the director’s artistic impression of what *may *have happened based on a very loose understanding of Sacred Scripture. Still, it’s great that there is a movie about the birth of Jesus out in theaters at all. Too bad a little more research didn’t go into it–it sure could have made a huge difference!

As for Mary, I’ll make one little point I didn’t see made before. At the beginning of the movie, her mom reprimands her for playing instead of working, and Mary defends herself saying she didn’t do anything wrong. The REAL Mary is the most humble of all women and would NOT have defended herself, even against false accusations. She would have taken full blame and apologized very humbly. If we know of Saints who had this type of behavior, why would it be absent in the Queen of All Saints–the one creature given more virtue than any other? Nah, they definitely weren’t on the mark with Our Lady as many posters claim.

 

[Tom317]

Actually you can hear the angel saying ‘hail Mary’. Not very loud, but it’s still a very powerful scene. They portray it during the day with Mary sitting under and olive tree. You can hear the words Hail Mary in the wind. I felt chills hearing it, but in a good way.
I highly recomend the movie. It’s beautifully done. They had Catholic and Protostants working on the movie, so I think both sides should be happy. Plus the world premier was held at the Vatican. Not too mention the high review from the Bishops.
I want to see it again before it leaves theaters. It’s bee a while sinse I saw a Christian movie made with actual quality (the last being the Passion), not something that looks like it’s made for hallmark. This one really touched me deeply, and I just can’t say enough good things about it. Heres hoping Hollywood keeps making movies like this.

Making “both sides” happy is not at the heart of an honest pursuit of truth…it represents a watering down of the faith so that everyone can find enjoyment in a piece of media entertainment. Either Mary was full of Grace, or she was not. If she was, then the Protestant view is a completely invalid view and should not be given credibility in film. Yet, on the other hand, if Mary was not full of Grace, then the Catholic faith is filled with lies.

Obviously I believe the Catholic faith to be the full truth as revealed by God and that Mary was/is full of Grace, that she was completely free of sin her entire life and was assumed into Heaven when her life here was complete. I also firmly believe the Bible when it reflects that Mary did NOT wrestle with her call for God, she gave herself completely and unquestioningly to our Lord and so did Joseph after the visitation by the angels.

I don’t want to see a film that was made to make both sides happy, I want to see the truth told–all of the truth no matter how difficult that is for non-Catholics.

 

[Nurse_Joy]

It was a good movie. I’m glad we weren’t there with the kids (11 & under). Not because it would scare them or gross them out. But because its more like a documentary than an exciting movie story. I can’t think of a better analogy.

This will get taken the wrong way. The nativity story is a great story. But I think its a better story read than seen on the big screen. Then again I never like movies as much when I have already read the book and know how it ends… kind of like I felt about the Passion movie.

 

[MargaretClare]

Catechism of the Council of Trent
Part 1 : The Creed
Article III

He is born of His Mother without any diminution of her maternal virginity, just as He afterwards went forth from the sepulchre while it was closed and sealed, and entered the room in which His disciples were assembled, the doors being shut; or not to depart from every-day examples,just as the rays of the sun penetrate without breaking or injuring in the least the solid substance of glass, so after a like but more exalted manner did Jesus Christ come forth from His mother’s womb without injury to her maternal virginity.

I have been told that because the Blessed Mothers virginity was kept intact then this means she did not suffer pain. However, nowhere does it say that she did not suffer pain. Could God not have kept her virginity intact through miraculous means?

Here are a few exerpts from the account of the Nativity which St. Bridget of Sweden saw. It is incredibly similar to that of Venerable Mary of Agreda’s decription in *The Mystical City of God. *And that idea which someone had mentioned earlier about Christ passing through Our Blessed Mother as sunlight through a crystal is from the City of God - I was just rereading it to make sure. The City of God is quite wordy in all its descriptions so I thought it would be best to quote from St. Bridget’s shorter account - also she is a Saint vs. a Venerable. These revelations are not a matter of Faith, and I think the above quoted text from the Council of Trent is worth a million times than these ( even more than that - they are a matter of Faith ). But I thought I would share this with everyone, anyway, as it is quite beautiful and an approved private revelation.

from Chapter VII of *The Revelations of St. Bridget

• http://www.catholiccompany.com/images/large/1002274.jpg

The Nativity

• When all these things were ready, the Virgin, kneeling with great reverence, placed herself in prayer … rapt as it were, in an ecsasy of contemplation … And while she thus stood in prayer, I beheld her Child move in her womb, and at once, in a moment, and in the twinkling of an eye, she brought forth her Son, from whom such ineffable light and splendor radiated that the sun could not be compared to it … and so sudden and momentary was the mode of bearing, that I could not perceive or discern how, or in what part she brought forth. Nevertheless, I immediately beheld that glorious Babe lying naked and most pure on the ground, His flesh most clean from all filth or impurity … I then also heard angelic chants of wonderful suavity and great sweetness … When the Virgin perceived that she had been delivered, she immediately bowed her head, and joining her hands, and adored her Son with great respect and reverence …

• The Blessed Virgin Speaks

*My daughter, know that I bore my Son as you have seen, praying alone on my knees in the stable. I bore Him with such joy and exultation of mind that I felt no pain or difficulty when He left my body. But I immediately wrapped Him up in clean swaddling clothes which I had previously prepared. When Joseph saw this, he wondered with great joy that I had been delivered without any aide; but as the great multitude of people in Bethlehem was busy with the census, the wonders of God could not be divulged among them. And therefore, know truly, that although men, according to human ideas, would assert that my Son was born in the usual way, it is true beyond all doubt that He was born as I tell thee and thou hast seen.*

 

[MargaretClare]

I just realized The Mystical City of God was written from the years 1655-1665, and the Council of Trent was from 1545 - 1563. So probably Venerable Mary of Agreda got this quote about Christ being like the sun passing through crystal ( or glass, Council of Trent) from this Council. Either way, the teaching from the Council of Trent came first. I’m so happy to know this, because now I can really take this as a matter of Faith and be assured of its Truth. Thank you, st_ignatius110!

 

[a_priori]

The movie sounded promising but the 16 year old actress playing Mary is pregnant by her 19 year old boyfriend and I cannot make the leap. Everything to do with the Faith is in-your-face these days. Christians should wish her well but we should also be sick and tired of getting our noses rubbed in the dirt all the time. At the end of the day, this movie is an attempt to elicit an emotional response from Christians and separate them from their money.

I prefer the real-life Mary and I’ll take the money and give it to people who are suffering for real.

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