Moving from Arguments for God to Arguments for a Specific Religion

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So you don’t agree with Charlemagne III that we can choose a religion just based on what we suppose God’s most prominent attribute is. I don’t agree either.
The criteria of love is a good place to start, but it’s not the only criteria because it alone creates an unbalanced and untrue picture of God and the nature of man. I believe, if I may speak for Charlemagne III, that he simply wished to point in a particular direction, not make love the end-all and be-all of anyone’s search for sound religion.
 
Well, it certainly would have made the city easier to conquer 😃

Actually, so little is known about ancient times that definitive claims like “impossible” are a stretch. It means essentially, “Impossible given what minuscule knowledge we pretend we have.”
Very good point. The writing that they did was often on very fragile substances and only portions survived; if anything at all.
 
So by what authority does the Baha’i faith “grant” Jesus’ divinity? Notice this is tantamount to human beings having authority to “decide” on the matter of divinity. By what prescience or inherent aspect of human nature would we know what constitutes divinity? There is a subtle distinction between that and Jesus (Second person of the Godhead) revealing himself to human beings in an undeniable way and making direct proclamations about who and how humans would be granted teaching and moral authority. It is precisely this claim by Jesus that is the definitive one that distinguishes Christianity from other religions.
I think it’s pretty clear that “grant” in this sense means “admit” and “believe.” People certainly do have the authority to decide what they believe. For example, Protestant Christians reject the belief that Jesus established the Pope as an infallible authority. Catholics, on the other hand, have decided that Jesus’ words indicate their leader can make infallible pronouncements. Each group will claim that it’s decision was made with proper authority while the other group was somehow invalid or mistaken.
Christianity does not require Baha’i to endorse it because Jesus (if he is God) does not require any additional support to bolster his claim. Either he is God or he is not. It is a straight forward matter.
Who cares? My point was that even if we accepted Charlemagne III’s proposal and an interpretation of history where Jesus was divine, we still can’t narrow the set of religions down to Christianity alone. Both the Baha’i and Christian faiths are compatible with those two propositions (in fact, there are likely others.)
To say we cannot know God is to say he does not reveal himself. How would anyone know that a priori or by some kind of unilateral decision enacted in the human will absent God?
Suppose you are a Sumerian living in Sumer c. 3500BC. You are trying to decide which religion is the correct one. You use your above line of reasoning to conclude that the local theocracies claim to divine inspiration must be valid. After all, you’ve never heard any “legitimate” competing claims and God certainly must reveal himself. Unfortunately for you, the Israelites will not come into existence for another 2000 years. There would be no way for you to anticipate or be convinced by God’s revelation to the Israelites. You therefore happily conclude that your native religion must be true.

Therefore, I claim that we do not know whether or not God has revealed himself. This is especially true if our starting point is simply “I accept arguments for God’s existence.”
 
Therefore, I claim that we do not know whether or not God has revealed himself. This is especially true if our starting point is simply “I accept arguments for God’s existence.”
The crux of the issue of revelation. One person’s revelation is another’s insanity.
 
I agree that those religions that don’t know Christianity because eg. it wasn’t around at the time were at a disadvantage. But they were bound by the tenants of their own beliefs, and their own system of morallity. Because they were sincere and had good will in the execution of their beliefs, it is believed that God is his love and justice would acknowledge their fidelity.
The Catholic Church answers this in her teachings of Baptism of water, desire, and blood. Assuming that if they knew of Jesus Christ, they would accept the belief in Christianity. The same applies to those who die being faithful, sincere, and of good will in the practice of their faith, giving their life for their beliefs

A good example in scripture is the story of Cornelius, a good man who buried the dead and other good actions. He didn,t know about Christ and the Way. But by the power of the Holy Spirit and manifestation of the Holy Spirit he was baptized by St.Peter.

The Jews were called the chosen people because God intended His Son to be of that race.
Jesus was prefigured by Kings and heroes of the Jewish nation in the old testament. Aproximately 2000+ years ago Jesus made his appearance. And according to witnesses of the twelve Apostles did things only God could do, and not only that but prophesied future events.

We can safely say God has not revealed Himself if there was no way of gaining that knowledge, but there are sufficient witnesses that say we can and supply that knowledge. One in conscience is obliged to seek that knowledge and sound it out. Now the knowledge does not produce the belief, but if the tenants of the Faith are followed then the belief is given, it is a gift from Christ Of course the gift may be turned down by the will of the individual, it is freely given, and must be freely accepted, we call this the gift of conversion,
 
The criteria of love is a good place to start, but it’s not the only criteria because it alone creates an unbalanced and untrue picture of God and the nature of man. I believe, if I may speak for Charlemagne III, that he simply wished to point in a particular direction, not make love the end-all and be-all of anyone’s search for sound religion.
Yes, I was offering a short cut to finding the Way. You have to start somewhere, and most people recognize a God of love long before they recognize a God of truth. And let’s be frank, some people are a whole lot more interested in love than they are in truth.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
 
Suppose you are a Sumerian living in Sumer c. 3500BC. You are trying to decide which religion is the correct one. You use your above line of reasoning to conclude that the local theocracies claim to divine inspiration must be valid. After all, you’ve never heard any “legitimate” competing claims and God certainly must reveal himself. Unfortunately for you, the Israelites will not come into existence for another 2000 years. There would be no way for you to anticipate or be convinced by God’s revelation to the Israelites. You therefore happily conclude that your native religion must be true.
This doesn’t follow. It is not on the basis of purely external “information” that I am convinced that my ‘native’ religion must be true. I could then, as I do now, have taken a non-historical, and not necessarily experiential perspective on truth.

When you say "there is no way for you to anticipate or be convinced by God’s revelation to the Israelites, you completely discount the fact that God may continually be influencing (or, at least, attempting to influence) all human beings at all times, it may be that the Israelites (at least some influential Israelites) simply listened to and followed God’s promptings better than other peoples and that is why God could reveal himself more fully to them.

It may be that an individual Sumerian living 3500 years ago could have, given the right openness, made it possible for the Sumerians to have been the “chosen” people. Human response to revelation may have made all the difference, so your presumptions don’t lead where you think they do.
 
I think it’s pretty clear that “grant” in this sense means “admit” and “believe.” People certainly do have the authority to decide what they believe. For example, Protestant Christians reject the belief that Jesus established the Pope as an infallible authority. Catholics, on the other hand, have decided that Jesus’ words indicate their leader can make infallible pronouncements. Each group will claim that it’s decision was made with proper authority while the other group was somehow invalid or mistaken.

Who cares?
To begin with, Catholics care. If Catholics once believed their religion was in error on any one point, it could then be in error on a hundred or a thousand points of doctrine. Protestants don’t much care about infallibility, and so they have broken into thousands of sects each declaring the other in error and all declaring the Catholic Church in error. If you are not a Christian, and you are seriously thinking about becoming one, it would have been so much easier to have one choice than to have to plough through a thousand sects.

Protestantism has sucessfully watered down Christianity to a befuddling hodge-podge of sects. But if I was not a Christian and thought seriously about becomming one, I’d want to belong to the one that claimed it had unmistakably carried on the teachings of Jesus through thousands of years. 🤷
 
So many philosophers have put forth rational arguments for the necessity of a God-like being. Some of these arguments, I think, can be very compelling. But if one grants the existence of a God-like being, is there a rational sort of argument to show that any one religion has the proper understanding of this being?

I’m curious how you might go about convincing the open-minded skeptic, who grants a God exists, that your religion understands what this God is all about.
practice make perfect 🤷 ?

God with You
  • john
 
For me, once I came to the conclusion there was a Creator the thinking moves to how has the Creator revealed himself / their self and what is more credible.

Such a decision process becomes very complex.

Credible revelation is important, sound explanations for reality are important as is the track record and origin of each religion.

I also think it’s better to think of religions as having different fullness of the truth. rather than the unnecessary limitations of ‘correct’ or ‘incorrect’.

I also think it is erroneous to think about religions having ‘different’ Gods. Sometimes descriptions of supernatural entities become categorised as Gods, which is not the definition of God in the Christian west.
 
The Bahá’í Faith pretty heavily emphasizes love. It also fully grants Jesus’ divinity and the divine origins of the Gospels.
The Bahá’í Faith originated in Islam, just as the Unitarian/Universalist Church originated in Christianity. They have parallels in their history, both being of relatively recent origin, and both espousing the validity of all religions and all gods as their preferred outlook.

They are comparable in some ways to the political organization called the United Nations, and both about as popular … which is to say they each have few admirers and many critics.

The reason for this, I think, is that, like the United Nations, which gives a vote to every nation, the Bahá’í Faith and Unitarian/Universalism do not recognize any religion as distinctly superior to any other religion. Every religion gets a vote of confidence as a way to find God or Nirvana.

But in the end we know that some religions are distinctly inferior to others, and are barely civilized in the way they promote evil effects among their people, including human sacrifice and the holocaust of millions. Other religions are superior in the way they promote love and peace, and in the way they support justice and fair play among their own people rather than oppression and persecution.
 
The Bahá’í Faith originated in Islam, just as the Unitarian/Universalist Church originated in Christianity. They have parallels in their history, both being of relatively recent origin, and both espousing the validity of all religions and all gods as their preferred outlook.

They are comparable in some ways to the political organization called the United Nations, and both about as popular … which is to say they each have few admirers and many critics.

The reason for this, I think, is that, like the United Nations, which gives a vote to every nation, the Bahá’í Faith and Unitarian/Universalism do not recognize any religion as distinctly superior to any other religion. Every religion gets a vote of confidence as a way to find God or Nirvana.

But in the end we know that some religions are distinctly inferior to others, and are barely civilized in the way they promote evil effects among their people, including human sacrifice and the holocaust of millions. Other religions are superior in the way they promote love and peace, and in the way they support justice and fair play among their own people rather than oppression and persecution.
It seems to me that you’re mischaracterizing their beliefs. They seem to me to be saying that all religions have their origins with God, and that God has a plan for all religions. All the religions, therefore, should contribute to our continually improving understanding of God. For example, Christianity is quick to point out that the savagery that God commanded of the Israelites is not indicative of the savagery of Christianity as a whole.
e.g. Deuteronomy 13:15-16
Thou shalt forthwith kill the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, and shalt destroy it and all things that are in it, even the cattle. And all the household goods that are there, thou shalt gather together in the midst of the streets thereof, and shalt burn them with the city itself, so as to consume all for the Lord thy God, and that it be a heap for ever: it shall be built no more.
In the same way, the Bahá’í faith believes that God had a purpose for even the “barely civilized” religions that caused people to put entire cities to the sword. They argue that what God directed such savage people to do is not a sort of universal commandment, simply something they could understand that would further Gods long term plans.
 
It seems to me that you’re mischaracterizing their beliefs. They seem to me to be saying that all religions have their origins with God, and that God has a plan for all religions.
If that is so, is there a Bible of their religion that claims to be divinely inspired, or is this, like Buddhism, a man-made religion, claiming divine inspiration but able to point to no other authority than the man who started it?

And by the way, is there a stated creed that members of this faith are expected to follow? If so, who wrote the creed and when and where was it written? 🤷
 
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