Moving in before being married and still want to be married in the Church

[goravens]

1ke:

Wedding websites, I suspect possibly you are on The Knot or Wedding Channel, in general are populated by dissenting Catholics, former Catholics, barely Catholics, and non-Catholics whose own religions do not teach against premarital sex or cohabitation.

I would wager that many faithful Catholics just don’t frequent those websites. I was on them while planning my wedding, and I just gave up b/c these people were just hopeless (and deaf, dumb, and blind to any reasoned argument I ever gave).

It is unfortunate that a “Catholic” would even ask such a question. Yes, catechesis is poor in some places BUT just as many “Catholics” know what they are doing is a sin, and just don’t care. Lots of women getting married in the Church are doing so to please their parents, not because they actually believe what the Church teaches or practices their faith. The young Catholics I know are not in the dark regarding what the Church teaches, they just choose to disregard it.

100% agreed! I used to frequent the knot when planning my wedding, and the nest afterwards, but it just became too much. Too many people on there would give their ill-formed opinions and when others (such as myself) would give solid information, it was still ignored or made fun of. I remember one girl tried to make a case about active homsexuality not being a sin as the Bible states, and then she referenced places in Deuteronomy and Leviticus where there were laws against eating shellfish, etc. I explained thoroughly how these were different (ie, moral law vs. Jewish ceremonial laws designed to set the Israelites apart as God’s chosen people) and she just replied, “oh well. I’m right and everyone can do as he or she pleases and we have no room to judge one another.” Some people just don’t want to know the truth and then belittle those of us with faith. That was my experience with the boards more than one time - especially with issues of cohabitation and nfp - and it just got old.

 

[1ke]

100% agreed! I used to frequent the knot when planning my wedding, and the nest afterwards, but it just became too much. Too many people on there would give their ill-formed opinions and when others (such as myself) would give solid information, it was still ignored or made fun of. I remember one girl tried to make a case about active homsexuality not being a sin as the Bible states, and then she referenced places in Deuteronomy and Leviticus where there were laws against eating shellfish, etc. I explained thoroughly how these were different (ie, moral law vs. Jewish ceremonial laws designed to set the Israelites apart as God’s chosen people) and she just replied, “oh well. I’m right and everyone can do as he or she pleases and we have no room to judge one another.” Some people just don’t want to know the truth and then belittle those of us with faith. That was my experience with the boards more than one time - especially with issues of cohabitation and nfp - and it just got old.

Yes, it was very frustrating to put together a well-reasoned (and documented) reply to inaccurate information only to get the very intelligent reply of “you’re stupid” or “you’re just judgmental”. I mean, what sort of answer is that? These people cannot put together an argument based on facts and merit, only name-calling.

The ability to debate does not exist over on those sites – I guess we can blame the schools who no longer teach these skills or classic authors.

 

[estesbob]

a_cermak:

The woman is unhappy about the direction of the Church and is leaving it to go to another. Isn’t that what most folks on this board want? For the dissidents to leave so there will be no more dissension?

Although the Episcopal church doesn’t espouse carnal relations between the unmarried either. They’re not as apt to get all judgemental about it, but they do see it as sin.

No-what we want is for Catholics and those of other faiths to embrace the Fulnees of Truth that is found only in the Catholic Church. Those who disagree shouldnt leave-they should pray and study unitl they come to realize they are wrong in their disidence on funadamental Catholic Doctrines.Meanwhile it the duty of those who embrace the truth to point out the errors of those who dont.

 

[1ke]

a_cermak:

The woman is unhappy about the direction of the Church and is leaving it to go to another.

The woman is not just “unhappy abaou the direction of the Church”… she is (a) misinformed on church teaching and (b) wanting to reduce/change church teaching to what she wants to do. She wants to cohabit and the church says it’s wrong… therefore it must be the church that is wrong!!

a_cermak:

Isn’t that what most folks on this board want? For the dissidents to leave so there will be no more dissension?

No, I think you will find that “most folks” on this board want the dissenting, misinformed, and ignorant Catholics to become educated, conform their will to Christ’s, and embrace the Truth.

a_cermak:

Although the Episcopal church doesn’t espouse carnal relations between the unmarried either. They’re not as apt to get all judgemental about it, but they do see it as sin.

I challenge you on this point. I was an Episcopalian, and I challenge you to find someone in the American Episcopal church (as opposed to the African Anglicans, etc) who will say it is a sin. The standard line is that “committed, monogamous” relationships are “loving” and not “sinful”. That is how they justified their actively homosexual bishop.

Marriage is not seen as the only way to be in a “loving” relationship-- and no, they will not condemn living together before marriage.

 

[estesbob]

1ke:

I challenge you on this point. I was an Episcopalian, and I challenge you to find someone in the American Episcopal church (as opposed to the African Anglicans, etc) who will say it is a sin. The standard line is that “committed, monogamous” relationships are “loving” and not “sinful”. That is how they justified their actively homosexual bishop.

Marriage is not seen as the only way to be in a “loving” relationship-- and no, they will not condemn living together before marriage.

Agreed. its hard to claim that the Epicsopal Church think living together is not a sin when they jus oradined a Bishop who is doing so. About 40 years ago the Episcopal Church started adopting an anything goes attitude. Being “tolerant” becamse more important than doctrine. The result has been a loss of about 40% of their membership-a period that saw the catholic maintian int membership the same levels. Now that they have embraced homosexuality , female priests and tolerate abortion with a wink and a nod i am afraid their is no hope for this Church.

 

[KCT]

God bless you for standing up for your faith! Dh and I have done marriage prep in our parish and have never had a couple who understood (or actually knew) the teachings on marriage and family. The majority of the couples we have worked with lived together before marriage. They say they don’t agree with the Church on certain issues, but the truth is, they really have no idea what the Church teaches. Sad.

And we wonder why there’s a ‘vocation shortage’. How can people who don’t know what the church teaches raise kids who are open to giving their lives to the Church?

If you want to help these people, suggest they read the Catechism or other good books on Catholic marriage. They may realize their opinions/ consciences don’t supercede the Catechism. --KCT

 

[Ruthie]

Estes Bob said:

“About 40 years ago the Episcopal Church started adopting an anything goes attitude. Being ‘tolerant’ became more important than doctrine.”

I think it’s Mosher who quotes in his sig line:

“Tolerance is the virtue of a man with no convictions”- G.K. Chesterton

Love it!

 

[BlindSheep]

I was going to say I found it hard to imagine a situation where someone’s conscience would actually make them feel as though they *ought *to live together before marriage (I can imagine that an unformed conscience could be silent on the matter, but in that case, why not just go along with Church teachings?) but when I think of it, there are a few. For instance, a couple who has already been living together for years and have children, both convert to Catholicism and decide to marry in the Church. Wouldn’t it be acceptable for them to go on living together until the wedding, as long as they abstain from sex during that time - since having one move out would be disruptive and traumatic for the children? Or what if the couple were financially unable to maintain two seperate homes? Mind you, I’m talking about a couple who is willing to live as “brother and sister” until they are actually married - I can’t imagine anyone actually feeling they have an obligation to have premarital sex, which is what the whole “conscience argument” seems to imply.

 

[estesbob]

Ruthie:

Estes Bob said:

“About 40 years ago the Episcopal Church started adopting an anything goes attitude. Being ‘tolerant’ became more important than doctrine.”

I think it’s Mosher who quotes in his sig line:

“Tolerance is the virtue of a man with no convictions”- G.K. Chesterton

Love it!

It is tough on many episcopaleans who want to remain true to their faith but are appaled at the direction their Church is taking. I have a very good friend who is an Episcopal Priest. He is Orthodox and is afraid he will have to leave the Church in the next few years when, as he suspects, homosexual marriage becomes a binding doctine in the Episcopal Church.

He will not become Catholic as he can not reconcile his beliefs with the Dorctines of our Church-mainly the authority of the Pope and our rejection of OSAS. He feels there will be a split in the Episcopal Church in the next few year with many Parish’s aligning themselves with overseas,Orthodox Bishops. There is going to be a HUGE fight over who owns the Church’s property.

 

[a_cermak]

How does the current practice of living together prior to marriage differ from the old Highlander custom of handfasting? That involved a trial marriage lasting a day and a year and if no children were born during that time, it could be dissolved with no stain upon the character of either member. If a child was born, the couple would be married. That’s been the attitude of many couples I’ve known that have been living together–that if a child was conceived, there would be a wedding.

 

[1ke]

a_cermak:

How does the current practice of living together prior to marriage differ from the old Highlander custom of handfasting? That involved a trial marriage lasting a day and a year and if no children were born during that time, it could be dissolved with no stain upon the character of either member. If a child was born, the couple would be married. That’s been the attitude of many couples I’ve known that have been living together–that if a child was conceived, there would be a wedding.

I don’t really understand the relevancy of your question. But to answer, both living together and trial marriage are gravely sinful and condemned by the Church.

 

[estesbob]

a_cermak:

How does the current practice of living together prior to marriage differ from the old Highlander custom of handfasting? That involved a trial marriage lasting a day and a year and if no children were born during that time, it could be dissolved with no stain upon the character of either member. If a child was born, the couple would be married. That’s been the attitude of many couples I’ve known that have been living together–that if a child was conceived, there would be a wedding.

It was a sin then and it is a sin nowl.

 

[I_A]

Tell her to read Deus Caritas Est to see what Benidict really thinks.

 

[Sina]

I live with my fiance. I know it is wrong. When we moved in together and bought our townhouse, I didn’t chose to think about what it meant. I wanted everything to be perfect and I wanted to get married and I thought moving in together was a path to marriage. It seems that way with all my peers.

I know it is wrong and I have discussed it a bit with my priest. He hasn’t said anything and I don’t blame him. I can talk about it with him in the confession booth.

The problem is that we are getting married on June 3rd and it is February 12th today. I really feel like it is nearly impossible to move out of our house and live somewhere temporarily. I can’t live with my parents and I don’t have the guts to find somewhere else. It also seems financially impossible to move out - and we moved in together a lot because of finances and not being able to see each other except before bedtime due to work.

I know these are the usual arguments and I know how they get brought down. It is just something I am struggling with, just like anyone else would struggle with a sin that they are repeating and are sorry for but not sorry enough to quit. I feel like this is all going to go away when I am married. I know I am a hyprocrite when I am in the church for a mass on sunday’s. I don’t go to confession over this ( not until I am ready to correct my sin ) and I don’t take communion, but I will once I am married.

I would imagine a lot of Catholics ( whether you want to call them cradle catholics or whathave you ) feel the same way. Just me sharing my perspective on it. Feel free to say what you think. Do you think it’s easy to move out and undo the harm I have already done?

 

[1ke]

Sina:

Do you think it’s easy to move out and undo the harm I have already done?

The church encourages, but does not require, a cohabiting couple to separate. It seems in your case, it would be possible but very difficult.

What you can do is discontinue your sexual relationship, pray together, take NFP classes (I would assume contraception is a part of your relationship), and embrace church teaching regarding abstaining before marriage.

That is definitely possible. You will need ground rules, such as wearing only modest clothing in common areas of the house, sleeping separately, no tempting each other, etc.

Go to confession and return to the Sacraments!

 

[seabird3579]

I go along with the Catholic theologians who say that if you break the rules of courtship or engagement, you will more than likely break the rules of marriage.

The Church requires a chaste and celibate courtship leading to a virginal marriage. Do all couples try to live this way? Obviously not. Do some or most? I would say, yes. For those trying to follow the Church’s teaching and going to Confession and Holy Communion on a regular basis, there is much to be learned spiritually about keeping a vow.

It becomes a very good preparation for Faithfulness in Marriage.

 

[wcknight]

Folks who are about to be married, are preparing to receive a sacrament. BEFORE receiving any sacrament, we should be in the state of grace (except before receiving Penance or Baptism).

Most priests I know would insist that a cohabitating couple live separately before getting married. At the very least they should receive Penance and cease relations before the marriage.

 

[a_cermak]

And yet at some parishes here in the Chicago area, there are special marriage prep programs for couples who have lived together for more than 2 years and those who have children together. I’m guessing these programs don’t require the couples to separate–that would be harmful to the children. They may require abstinence, I don’t know.

I think the attitude of many priests is that they don’t approve of couples living together, but feel that it is better to rejoice that the couple is doing what is right (getting married) rather than berate them for the road they took to get there.

 

[BlindSheep]

Sina:

I live with my fiance. I know it is wrong. When we moved in together and bought our townhouse, I didn’t chose to think about what it meant. I wanted everything to be perfect and I wanted to get married and I thought moving in together was a path to marriage. It seems that way with all my peers.

I know it is wrong and I have discussed it a bit with my priest. He hasn’t said anything and I don’t blame him. I can talk about it with him in the confession booth.

The problem is that we are getting married on June 3rd and it is February 12th today. I really feel like it is nearly impossible to move out of our house and live somewhere temporarily. I can’t live with my parents and I don’t have the guts to find somewhere else. It also seems financially impossible to move out - and we moved in together a lot because of finances and not being able to see each other except before bedtime due to work.

I know these are the usual arguments and I know how they get brought down. It is just something I am struggling with, just like anyone else would struggle with a sin that they are repeating and are sorry for but not sorry enough to quit. I feel like this is all going to go away when I am married. I know I am a hyprocrite when I am in the church for a mass on sunday’s. I don’t go to confession over this ( not until I am ready to correct my sin ) and I don’t take communion, but I will once I am married.

I would imagine a lot of Catholics ( whether you want to call them cradle catholics or whathave you ) feel the same way. Just me sharing my perspective on it. Feel free to say what you think. Do you think it’s easy to move out and undo the harm I have already done?

In retrospect, I think a period of living seperately before marriage would have been a good thing for me. It allows you to enter the marriage with more of a sense of being a complete, autonomous individual rather than someone who is dependant on your partner. Interdependence in marriage is a good thing in one sense, but feelings of being desperate or afraid to be alone can be a big problem, so if you have any issues with that it’s best to sort them out beforehand by spending some time living alone. It’s sort of like the saying about two half people not making a happy marriage, that a happy marriage needs to be between two whole people, if that makes any sense at all.

 

[stbruno]

familyministries.org/www.inthespiritofcana.org/2.6.6.htm

This is the official church policy on cohabitation. But statistics if you examine the site for more information show a greater percentage of couple failure when they cohabit before marriage. When we do marriage prep, we remind them of the odds and therefore, they need to work even more on the idea of a marriage covenant to make their marriage succeed as God would have intended it.

Keep praying on it. If you truly love your fiance, I would strongly suggest making it a chaste relationship prior to a sacramental marriage.