moving on to Islam

[AngryAtheist8]

Some might say…it’s an exaggerated form of enforcing that all-important chastity. That’s how the religion sees it, I think. They are coming from the same intention as Catholics are…trying to keep the women “pure” and “chaste”, tho they are going about it in a harmful, dangerous way. It’s just about where the line is drawn.

I honestly don’t like the Catholic Church, and think that its record regarding the treatment of women is mixed at best. Nevertheless it doesn’t seem fair to me to compare it to Islam when it comes to women.

To the best of my knewledge the Church has always been against things like FGM and Honor Killings.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Ever thought that women in those countries ARE actually happy?

.

Are you suggesting Muslim women like being subject to things like Honor Killings, FGM, being barred from the public square, stonings, no access to education, etc.?

This reminds me of the arguments on record from Southern (U.S.) Slavemasters claiming that slaves enjoyed their lot in life and couldn’t take care of themselves if they were free.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

How do you define Islamic?
peace and blessings

Religiously motivated actions by Muslims as Muslims.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I agree. Either find some evidence or stop spouting lies. Such genital mutilation was around in the Middle East long before Islam.

So what?

Its practiced by large groups of Muslims now, and has been for a very very long time. Its part of their group identity.

Therefore its a Muslim practice.

I know it didn’t start with Muslims, and a few Muslims even condemn it.
But at this point that doesn’t really matter very much.

Actions matter more than words, and Egyptians Muslims have shown exactly what they think of women and their bodies through their actions.

Here are a few news articles on the subject:

irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=88352

nytimes.com/2007/09/19/world/africa/19iht-egypt.5.7572375.html

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Genital mutilation is not in Quran, at least, but the Quran DOES say a man is allowed to “beat severely” his wife if she “disobeys.” And Islam has done nothing to ban or discourage female genital mutilation---------------------------------so what does that tell you?

That the writers of the Koran didn’t really value or concern themselves with the welfare of women and girls.

I have said it before I will say it again.

I think the Muslim world values girls so much that Muslims from those regions will soon begin aborting them as a group like China and India.

 

[CopticChristian]

My dearest friend from highschool is turning to Islam. These last few years I have been busy and had to change our friendship because I work and now have a family. She called me a few days ago and invited me to her conversion. I admit I know little about islam but it scared me and I don’t know what to tell her. She is married to a catholic man his facebook page shows he is angry at her and is afraid for his kids. what do I say at this point?

Start reading Answering Islam by Giesler and Saleeb.

 

[Steven_John]

How do you define Islamic?

Religiously motivated actions by Muslims as Muslims.

So if a Muslim (Islamic religion) claims to be religiously motivated and does good works do you see that as Islamic?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

It tells me you have some recognised authority that differs from those in the Islamic religion where i live as they are opposed and have began and interfaith group here that is their platform for what they see as correcting what they see as miss information of what Islam is.
Your great … before your question coupled with your “well” post to me it may say more about you than them.
As i have said they way you treat me and others reflects to me the understanding you have of the piety of your messenger/s.
Peace and blessings

I notice that you never really addressed the question.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

So if a Muslim (Islamic religion) claims to be religiously motivated and does good works do you see that as Islamic?

Perhaps, it depends on the context.

 

[Steven_John]

I notice that you never really addressed the question.

Yes i did sorry you missed it.

Originally Posted by OrdinaryMelkite View Post
Genital mutilation is not in Quran, at least, but the Quran DOES say a man is allowed to “beat severely” his wife if she “disobeys.” And Islam has done nothing to ban or discourage female genital mutilation---------------------------------so what does that tell you?

It tells me you have some recognised authority that differs from those in the Islamic religion where i live as they are opposed and have began and interfaith group here that is their platform for what they see as correcting what they see as miss information of what Islam is.
Your great … before your question coupled with your “well” post to me it may say more about you than them.
As i have said they way you treat me and others reflects to me the understanding you have of the piety of your messenger/s.

Maybe you should consider if you cant read the answer you can see what you want to see.
Or maybe its because the question followed the other posts between myself, you and the other poster.
If you chase them backward the irony is early posts have me asking

Is that the Islamic religion? if so do you know where i may find it in the Quran or hadiths?

Track back and see who answers and who does not.

Bless you a bunch, peace

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Yes i did sorry you missed it.

Apparently the question was too subtle.

I shall ask you bluntly then:
What do you think Muslims particularly bad treatment (as a group) towards women in the modern age says about Islam as a religion?

 

[coachkfan1]

First off to Steve John, oppression of women is a cornerstone of Islamic culture while the liberation of women has consistently been a part of Jesus’ ministry. The other thing is, the only language that most Muslims understand is BOOM BYE BYE and it is time that all Christians, protestant and Catholic understand, that the common threat is radical Islam now! Whatever our theological differences, our common enemy is radical Islam. While we must pray for them and love all of our enemies, wake up Christian soldiers, the enemy is at the gates! For the liberation and conversion of all Muslims, Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus!

 

[Steven_John]

Perhaps, it depends on the context.

What is the context that defines for you what is Islamic?

Peace and blessings

 

[NorthTexan88]

How did the Vatican II council come to the agreement that the God of islam is they same as the God of Christianity? Is it just because they are an Abrahamic religion? It seems as though they have a different view of God than we done, at least thats what it seems like from reading on here.

 

[Steven_John]

First off to Steve John, oppression of women is a cornerstone of Islamic culture while the liberation of women has consistently been a part of Jesus’ ministry. The other thing is, the only language that most Muslims understand is BOOM BYE BYE and it is time that all Christians, protestant and Catholic understand, that the common threat is radical Islam now!

Ok have a read of my posts, i spoke of the Islamic people where i live. As for the bold “most muslims” where are the stats? i dont know how many muslims are going “BOOM BYE BYE” i think you are guessing saying “most” off the millions of muslims around the world most would be at least half of them. Who polled them, you clearly dont have it from the tv unless you quoting as half the millions “B]the only language that most Muslims understand is BOOM BYE BYE” would flood the box.
When you change to saying “radical Islam” your statements become more realistic but we were talking about the “Islamic religion” no doubt the majority of “radical Islam” would fit your “BOOM BYE BYE”.
Not from stats but by my guessing most in the world who claim Islam as their religion would have little knowledge of their religion there fore cant even be included as “fruit” of it as they reflect their cultural understanding.

Whatever our theological differences, our common enemy is radical Islam.

I agree some but you have moved away from the “Islamic religion”. i think to see the whole religion as an enemy, in its worst form it leads to genocides. I think the same enemy people attribute is in many other places ie our own religions, our societies and so on.
Yahooshua (pbwh) narrations for me show we are in a spiritual battle, when we direct to “a people” we missed the point. He spoke of good dead when speaking of Samaritans.
Christians easy get caught in the Soldier mentality.
We have plenty of the enemy in our own society easy it is to look at “them” where you are personally powerless than our own selves perceivably much lesser sins. A wise man works on his own sins, speaking truth encouragingly to others.

While we must pray for them and love all of our enemies,

Amen
wake up Christian soldiers, the enemy is at the gates! For the liberation and conversion of all Muslims, Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus!
I would pray a little differently but i think with clarity in ones mind of who and what the enemy is Amen

Blessings to you and yours

 

[Steven_John]

How did the Vatican II council come to the agreement that the God of islam is they same as the God of Christianity? Is it just because they are an Abrahamic religion?

From my interpretation only, yes, if you say their is One G-d and he is the G-d Abraham, and so on the line goes, then you seek the same G-d.

It seems as though they have a different view of God than we done, at least thats what it seems like from reading on here.

That is also my understanding of the CC.

Bless ya

 

[Steven_John]

Apparently the question was too subtle.

I shall ask you bluntly then:
What do you think Muslims particularly bad treatment (as a group) towards women in the modern age says about Islam as a religion?

My opinion here counts for nothing, i have asked questions, had them not answered but with new questions, when they are answered i am told i did not answer them?

Bluntly i am against all bad treatment of women, in or out of those who claim to be Islamic. My discussion here was not to be about me but the topics. Why am i so important you need my view?

I have also offered where i live the Islamic religion community speaks publicly against such treatments. They claim to be speaking for what they see is the true Islamic religion.

For what is worth they treat people with respect and try to answer peoples questions humbly and helpfully. Reflect on how you treat me in your posts, you verses them i would choose Islam over Agnostic (religion) or Athiest (name). Or in more specific terms their word over your word, mind you, your more of a questions than answer person.

Here is the thing, i speak for what i have witnessed, when i ask what informs what others offer its dodged with more questions.

Any how the important part is here people treat each other bears witness to their faith.

What do you think Christians particularly bad treatment (as a group) towards women in the times of old and those today says about Christian religions?

I don’t aspect you to answer this but for maybe throwing another question.

I dont judge my parish or diocese by, poor treatment of women, peodafile priests etc i discern on them by the good G-d does through them.
If i am to love my brother, neighbour and enemy then it is G-ds good i seek to help in small way build good up in them.

Peace to you and yours

 

[AngryAtheist8]

My opinion here counts for nothing, i have asked questions, had them not answered but with new questions, when they are answered i am told i did not answer them?

Bluntly i am against all bad treatment of women, in or out of those who claim to be Islamic. **My discussion here was not to be about me but the topics. Why am i so important you need my view? **

I honestly don’t know how important you are, but you are the one who has chosen to post in this thread and make your views heard. Considering the nature of this forum and the topic, you should expect to be questioned.

 

[CopticChristian]

I must answer this bolded part in particular, but I’ll answer this post.

Firstly, even Arabic Christians call God Allah. It’s even in my translation of the Arabic Bible. Allah is just an Arabic meaning ‘God’. It comes with no one particular theology, no one religion and no particular version of God attached.

Jesus likely spoke Aramaic where the word for God is similar to the word ‘Allah’- Ellahi. Similarly, Semitic linguistics show a root shared by both Arabic and Hebrew, namely the El- root which appears in early Jewish texts. All that happened in one case is that El- became Al- in Arabic (due to differing vowel patterns in the root language) and El became Al became Al-ilah became Allah.

With regard to the bolded bit, this is pure ignorance. Early Islam allowed women to do many things which weren’t allowed in the West even until recently. They still can and could inititate a divorce, go to university and school, become doctors, own their own money and work for themselves, own a business and travel abroad freely.

Similarly, there are literally a 1001 reasons why women in particular convert to Islam, and one of the reasons I’ve heard is much to do with the lackings of Christianity as they saw it.

As to ‘woldwide Islam’ it doesn’t exist. To use the words of the nasheed there are ‘so many different colours of Islam’. There are a wide variety of schools of Islamic thought, different Islamic cultures- even the Islam of different generations is wildly different. Just as there are many different Christian denominations, there are many different Islamic ones too, united in their unified belief in Qur’an.

Islam has as I understand it two basic groups. The group that believes that leaders are based on descendants of mohammed, the shiite, and others that do not agree with that, the suni. Suni represeent 90% of Islam. The Shiite minority is concentrated in Iran, Iraq and Lebanon.

The Suni would be the equivalant of Protestant denominations.

 

[CopticChristian]

My dearest friend from highschool is turning to Islam. These last few years I have been busy and had to change our friendship because I work and now have a family. She called me a few days ago and invited me to her conversion. I admit I know little about islam but it scared me and I don’t know what to tell her. She is married to a catholic man his facebook page shows he is angry at her and is afraid for his kids. what do I say at this point?

This thread has taken a turn towards women’s rights commencing with post 90 and beyond. I see many trying to answer this question. Everyone can agree with equality for men and women and mutiliation of no one. There are good and bad everywhere.

We do not call those baptized in the name of the trinity outside the Church heretics today as they are distant from the reformation. They are separated brethren.

There must be many that join Islam, distant from the foundation and history that believe that they are called to serve God. While they may be inheriting any evil done in the name of God, they did not do it.

What to do with mutiliations does not answer the question of this post.