Mt12 & Ma3 & Lu8/11: Marian heresy?

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MATTHEW****12:47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 12:48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 12:49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” MARK

3:32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers F14 are outside seeking You.” 3:33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” LUKE8
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Context:
Jesus was teaching when he was interrupted on each occassion he continued to teach but he addresses the focus that was placed on Mary taking that focus away from Mary and back to kingdom principles. Clearly Mary is a woman of faith and did Gods will, Jesus would not however on 4 count four different occassions to let the focus be on her.
Clearly if you say your are a biblical Christian you have to question Marian Doctrine.
 
you are actually citing two events, not 4, as the first three recount the same incident. these incidents lend weight to constant Christian belief for 2000 years that Mary is the perfect model of one who lives in and for the kingdom, that she is blessed because of it (as we can be if we model our attitude on hers, and become totally obedient willing servants of God, as prescribed in the Beatitudes).

Can you not see, as a bible Christian who is conversant with the history of the Church that Marian doctrine is and has always been proclaimed for the purpose of enunciating and protecting from heresy the truth about Jesus Christ? It is not about Mary, as she repeatedly says herself, it is about Jesus. “Do whatever he tells you,” her only recorded words in the bible after the infancy narratives, are echoed in every aspect of her life, and are the basis of all Catholic devotion to her.
 
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puzzleannie:
you are actually citing two events, not 4, as the first three recount the same incident. these incidents lend weight to constant Christian belief for 2000 years that Mary is the perfect model of one who lives in and for the kingdom, that she is blessed because of it (as we can be if we model our attitude on hers, and become totally obedient willing servants of God, as prescribed in the Beatitudes).

Can you not see, as a bible Christian who is conversant with the history of the Church that Marian doctrine is and has always been proclaimed for the purpose of enunciating and protecting from heresy the truth about Jesus Christ? It is not about Mary, as she repeatedly says herself, it is about Jesus. “Do whatever he tells you,” her only recorded words in the bible after the infancy narratives, are echoed in every aspect of her life, and are the basis of all Catholic devotion to her.
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How can you protect against heresy when you back right into one?
So your saying your going to do what your think is right even if it contrary to gods word?
Is not Mary placed in a position reserved for only God?
Mary says to do as he tells you, when His disciples asked how we pray Jesus responded:???
Yet you insist on praying differently.
 
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Xavier:
Is not Mary placed in a position reserved for only God?
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No.
Mary says to do as he tells you, when His disciples asked how we pray Jesus responded:???
Yet you insist on praying differently.
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Xavier,

Your question is about the doctrine of the Communion of Saints as much as it is about Mary. As a former Protestant myself, I can relate to the mental fractiousness that a lot of people have about this question. But the short articles linked below delineate the Catholic position for you simply and clearly. Perhaps they will help you to formulate your questions in a more cogent way.
catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9011fea2.asp

In his Epistle, James writes: “the prayer of a just man availeth much.” If the just person’s prayer “availeth much”, it is worth while to ask for his prayers. You might respond that this only applies while a person is still living. A Catholic would answer that the prayer of the “just man” is certainly not less effective when he is in heaven, with God, fulfilled in perfect charity, and more alive than he was in his earthly life.
 
MATTHEW12:47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 12:48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 12:49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” MARK

3:32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers F14 are outside seeking You.” 3:33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” LUKE8
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Context:
Jesus was teaching when he was interrupted on each occassion he continued to teach but he addresses the focus that was placed on Mary taking that focus away from Mary and back to kingdom principles. Clearly Mary is a woman of faith and did Gods will, Jesus would not however on 4 count four different occassions to let the focus be on her.
Clearly if you say your are a biblical Christian you have to question Marian Doctrine.
 
I find it interesting how limited the scope of non-Catholics quoting Scripture is. For example, many like to quote Luke 8:21 (But he said to them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”) as if Jesus somehow rebuked the idea that Mary was his mother.

Why is it that they never quote Luke 1:38 (And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”) which shows that Mary heard the word of God and did it – just as Jesus said in Luke 8:21. See also Luke 1:42-45 (and [Elizabeth] exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.)

It is clear, then that Jesus could not have been rejecting the idea of praising Mary (calling her blessed) in Luke 8:21 but, rather, the idea that she deserves special consideration simply for being his mother. Instead he corrects us and teaches that the reason she, and anyone else, deserves consideration for hearing the word of God and doing it. It is because she did the word of God upon hearing it that we can praise Mary. Luke 1:48-49 ("…for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call be blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.")

This is also the point in the passages you cite from Matthew, Mark, and Luke 11.
 
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Xavier:
So your saying your going to do what your think is right even if it contrary to gods word?
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No, she is saying that we will continue to praise Mary because Scripture reveals that she is to be praised and will be praised by all generations because she heard the word of God and obeyed.
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Xavier:
Is not Mary placed in a position reserved for only God?
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No, Mary is only venerated as the greatest of Saints, not as a goddess. The Catholic Church teaches that, while she is the greatest of the saints, she is merely a creature like the rest of us. We do not praise Mary and the other Saints because of anything she is/has/does by herself, but because of what God has done for and through her and the fact that she heard the word of God and obeyed. She is a paragon example of how we should all be.
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Xavier:
Mary says to do as he tells you, when His disciples asked how we pray Jesus responded:???
Yet you insist on praying differently.
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So, are you saying that this is the only prayer we are ever to give? No, Jesus was giving us an example of how to pray. We pray to God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – alone as God. We praise and honor God because He is God. We praise and honor the Saints because of the work God has done through them. You see, our focus is always on God. This is no different than honoring a great pastor who is filled with the spirit and leads many to Jesus. To honor him for this is not putting him on an equal level with God because you are honoring what God has chosen to do through him.
 
You should do at least the minimum fundamental research on a topic before making a post like that:

Excerpt from catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp
No Word for Cousin
Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning “cousin,” speakers of those languages could use either the word for “brother” or a circumlocution, such as “the son of my uncle.” But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used “brother.”
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The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of “brothers” to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives. When they wrote in Greek, they did the same thing the translators of the Septuagint did. (The Septuagint was the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible; it was translated by Hellenistic Jews a century or two before Christ’s birth and was the version of the Bible from which most of the Old Testament quotations found in the New Testament are taken.)
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In the Septuagint the Hebrew word that includes both brothers and cousins was translated as adelphos, which in Greek usually has the narrow meaning that the English “brother” has. Unlike Hebrew or Aramaic, Greek has a separate word for cousin, anepsios, but the translators of the Septuagint used adelphos, even for true cousins.
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You might say they transliterated instead of translated, importing the Jewish idiom into the Greek Bible. They took an exact equivalent of the Hebrew word for “brother” and did not use* adelphos* in one place (for sons of the same parents), and anepsios in another (for cousins). This same usage was employed by the writers of the New Testament and passed into English translations of the Bible. To determine what “brethren” or “brother” or “sister” means in any one verse, we have to look at the context. When we do that, we see that insuperable problems arise if we assume that Mary had children other than Jesus.
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Xavier said:
MATTHEW12:47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 12:48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 12:49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” MARK

3:32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers F14 are outside seeking You.” 3:33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” LUKE8
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Context:
Jesus was teaching when he was interrupted on each occassion he continued to teach but he addresses the focus that was placed on Mary taking that focus away from Mary and back to kingdom principles. Clearly Mary is a woman of faith and did Gods will, Jesus would not however on 4 count four different occassions to let the focus be on her.
Clearly if you say your are a biblical Christian you have to question Marian Doctrine.
Click to expand...

Hey X, with two small exceptions I agree. The exceptions are; the synoptic Gospels recount the same occurrence in the words of four different authors, they aren’t four separate occasions; the focus was never on Mary or His brothers and sisters so He was not “taking focus away” from anyone, the focus never was on them. That being said, I agree, the importance should be on the heavenly things. Which is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. The problem comes in when we think God doesn’t want us to use His gifts, which is exactly what Mary and all the saints are. God uses men and women, saints (deceased), angels, even animals and inanimate objects to do His work. A quick look at the Old Testament will show who, and how He uses everything in His creation for His purposes. Intercession does not diminish our love of God it increases it. Mary never brought even one person to herself, she brings them to her Son, our Lord, Jesus the Christ. God uses the saints in heaven (including Mary) for His work, that is Scriptural, to reject His gifts is foolish at the least.
BTW, iI will be out of town for a week, if I can’t get to a 'puter, it doesn’t mean I don’t love you anymore or I’m giving up on you, it’s just work. May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you,
Tom
 
Xavier,

All of the doctrines and dogmas that the Church teaches about Mary are really just further explications of the nature of Christ. We honor her because we seek to imitate Christ. Christ honored her because he fulfilled the commandments perfectly, including the commandment to honor his mother and father.

Let’s take the Immaculate Conception of Mary, a topic many Protestants struggle with as it doesn’t seem to be in scripture. If we go back to the OT, we see in Exodus 20 that Moses is given the 10 commandments and in Exodus 25-30, the details of the building of the ark of the covenant are given. It was to be a box covered in pure gold (symbolizing purity) worthy enough to carry the word of God, the tablets of the 10 commandments. So holy was this ark that those carrying it had to be of the priestly class and had to be sanctified. In fact, in one incident recorded in the Bible, the ark is about to slide off a cart and one of the unsanctified men pushes on it to prevent it from falling and is struck dead immediately by God. If there was such care taken with a box containing the Word of God, imagine what holiness attaches Mary, the ark of the new covenant with the Word Made Flesh inside of her? Furthermore, we know that Jesus got his divinity from God, but that he got his humanity from Mary. If Mary was sinful, that would mean Jesus inherited a fallen, sinful human nature!

Patrick Madrid puts it in one of his articles this way:
*"There’s another striking foreshadowing of Mary as the new ark of the covenant in 2 Samuel 6. The Israelites had lost the ark in a battle with their enemies, the Philistines, and had recently recaptured it. King David sees the ark being brought to him and, in his joy and awe, says “Who am I that the ark of the Lord should come to me?” (1 Sam. 6:9).

Compare this with Elizabeth’s nearly identical words in Luke 1:43. Just as David leapt for joy before the ark when it was brought into Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:14-16), so John the Baptist leapt for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary, the ark of the new covenant, came into her presence (Luke 1:44). John’s leap was for precisely the same reason as David’s–not primarily because of the ark itself, but because of what the ark contained, the Word of God."*

There is other evidence which I have omitted for sake of brevity, but Mary is also forshadowed in Genesis and is imaged in Revelation as well. The full Patrick Madrid article is linked below:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.asp

Catholics do not honor Mary because of an ignorance of scripture, but because of a full exploration of scripture.
 
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Tom:
Hey X, with two small exceptions I agree. The exceptions are; the synoptic Gospels recount the same occurrence in the words of four different authors, they aren’t four separate occasions; the focus was never on Mary or His brothers and sisters so He was not “taking focus away” from anyone, the focus never was on them. That being said, I agree, the importance should be on the heavenly things. Which is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. The problem comes in when we think God doesn’t want us to use His gifts, which is exactly what Mary and all the saints are. God uses men and women, saints (deceased), angels, even animals and inanimate objects to do His work. A quick look at the Old Testament will show who, and how He uses everything in His creation for His purposes. Intercession does not diminish our love of God it increases it. Mary never brought even one person to herself, she brings them to her Son, our Lord, Jesus the Christ. God uses the saints in heaven (including Mary) for His work, that is Scriptural, to reject His gifts is foolish at the least.
BTW, iI will be out of town for a week, if I can’t get to a 'puter, it doesn’t mean I don’t love you anymore or I’m giving up on you, it’s just work. May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you,
Tom
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Mary said “do as He says” at the marriage feast. He says pray like this; Our Father…
Can you not see the disconnect?
 
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mercygate:
No.
Xavier,

Your question is about the doctrine of the Communion of Saints as much as it is about Mary. As a former Protestant myself, I can relate to the mental fractiousness that a lot of people have about this question. But the short articles linked below delineate the Catholic position for you simply and clearly. Perhaps they will help you to formulate your questions in a more cogent way.
catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9011fea2.asp

In his Epistle, James writes: “the prayer of a just man availeth much.” If the just person’s prayer “availeth much”, it is worth while to ask for his prayers. You might respond that this only applies while a person is still living. A Catholic would answer that the prayer of the “just man” is certainly not less effective when he is in heaven, with God, fulfilled in perfect charity, and more alive than he was in his earthly life.
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I have asked a question in lieu of scripture why do Catholics, who say they are bible believing Christians, continue to ignore those things that clearly contradict your doctrine.
I can see you are unable to answer that.
 
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Xavier:
Mary said “do as He says” at the marriage feast. He says pray like this; Our Father…
Can you not see the disconnect?
Click to expand...
Please read the articles I gave the links to.

Do you ever communicate with anybody except God? Do you ever ask anybody, other than God, for help?

Did not Jesus do what his Mother asked him to do – because she asked him to do it? Mary’s love is perfect in Christ. Thus, in the Love of her Son, she cares for us as her own children (Jn. 19:26-27). John took Mary into his home from that day forward. Can we do otherwise?
 
What you originally posted did not contradict what we Catholics believe in the slightest, and it has been pointed out to you over and over again that your two incidents did not involve what you “interpret” them as doing.

We Catholics have never and will never put Mary on a par with God.

Your interpretation of the passages is that “Jesus didn’t let the focus go on Mary”. That is not what the passages actually say. There is nothing at all about “focus”–that word “focus” is your, Y-O-U-R, interpretation of what the passage means.

Stick to scripture. There’s nothing in the passage about Mary attempting to take a focus away from Jesus, or Jesus not permitting the focus to go on Mary.

Instead, Jesus tells us that those who do His will are His mother and brothers. He doesn’t say, “instead of those people outside”–in fact, “those people” are never mentioned as going against His will, so ipso fact, they’re likewise His mother and brothers too.

If WE aren’t getting “the focus” put on us (since we are His mother and brothers), then Mary isn’t getting “the focus” on her. . .

and your strawman collapses again.
 
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Xavier:
Mary said “do as He says” at the marriage feast. He says pray like this; Our Father…
Can you not see the disconnect?
Click to expand...
I don’t see a disconnect. The Our Father is prayed as part of the Liturgy at the Catholic Mass which means in many Catholic churches it’s prayed on a daily basis. i think we are doing a fine job of “doing as He says.”

As an interesting side note, I’ve been to many Protestant services and while there is alot of praying, not once have I heard them pray the Our Father. Can you not see the disconnect?
 
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Xavier:
I have asked a question in lieu of scripture why do Catholics, who say they are bible believing Christians, continue to ignore those things that clearly contradict your doctrine.
I can see you are unable to answer that.
Click to expand...
Why do you say we cannot answer? We have answered very well.

Can you help us by explaining what you mean by the phrase “in lieu of scripture?”

You have not read the articles I provided links to.

Do you ever communicate with anybody except God? Do you ever ask anybody, other than God, for help? Prayer is a spectrum, and in English usage can mean simply asking somebody a question or asking for something, as in the old expressions, “Prithee” and “pray tell.” Prayer is not, in essence a form of divine worship – although it can be.

One of the reasons we take Mary into our confidence is that at Cana Jesus *did *what his Mother asked him to do – because she asked him to do it. Mary’s love is perfect in Christ. Thus, in the Love of her Son, she cares for us as her own children (Jn. 19:26-27). John took Mary into his home from that day forward. We try to do likewise.

Our friendship with Mary, and hers with us, in no way detracts from God. And we do “pray thus” all the time. Most Catholics pray the Lord’s prayer several times a day.
 
Xavier said:
MATTHEW12:47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 12:48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 12:49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” MARK

3:32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers F14 are outside seeking You.” 3:33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” LUKE8
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Context:
Jesus was teaching when he was interrupted on each occassion he continued to teach but he addresses the focus that was placed on Mary taking that focus away from Mary and back to kingdom principles. Clearly Mary is a woman of faith and did Gods will, Jesus would not however on 4 count four different occassions to let the focus be on her.
Clearly if you say your are a biblical Christian you have to question Marian Doctrine.
Click to expand...

This is the standard mish-mash of supposedly anti-Mary passages which anti-Catholic posters habitually post whenever Mary is mentioned.

You have three repeats of the same incident from Matthew Mark and Luke, and then one other incident from Luke.

It is strange that out of all the references to Mary in scripture, these are the two that some protestants choose to pick upon.

The first incident:
Mary and Jesus’ kinsmen come to see Jesus. He tells the crowd, my mother and kinsmen are those whoe hear the word of God and do it.

Was He disparaging His mother? No. that would be a sin and breach of the commandments.

He is simply using the opportunity of the announcement of his Mother and family to say. "Yes. You too can be of my family, if you do the will of God. In fact it could be said that He is using Mary and those with her as an example to follow, people to emulate. “If you want to be to Me as they are, then follow their example.”

The second incident:

A woman says “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”

Jesus responds: “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Firstly, who is the woman praising. She doesn’t actually mention Mary (except in one bad modern translation). Lets just change the wording a little. “Blessed is the shair you sit on, and the air you breathe”. Would this be praising the chair or the air So what was he doing? Look at this similar passage.

John 4: 31 Meanwhile the disciples besought him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat of which you do not know.” 33 So the disciples said to one another, “Has any one brought him food?” 34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work.

Is jesus denying food?
 
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