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mercygate
Guest
You make good points but let’s lighten up on him; I have the impression (only an impression) from other threads that Xavier is about 16 years old.
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_Joshua
Guest
Yes ! the greatest attribute of Mary was her humility, her obedience to God was impeccable.I don’t know any faithful Catholic who regards Mary as a god or a goddess, so it would seem to me that the scripture passages you quote merely underscore her practice of humility - a practice we, as Christians, should emulate on a daily basis.
Does that make sense?
The new Eve whom God is using to overturn the tables on the evil one.
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teresas1979
Guest
Personally, I think this issue will always cause debate. The Pope publicly thanking Our Lady of Fatima for “saving his life” just added to the confusion. Catholics can defend their “veneration” of Mary til the cows come home but there is a simple point being missed: When non christians see people kneeling and praying before a statue they believe it is being worshipped as a God. As a (questioning) Catholic I have been asked by non christians who is the woman we always seem to pray to? So people outside of Catholicism (or rather Christianity) see Mary as the one being prayed to.
Where’s Jesus in all this? It’s meant to be all about Jesus. And many Catholics DO elevate Mary to equal footing with Jesus saying “Our Lord and Our Lady together can save us.” Also, the Marian shrines are a great cause of controversy with all manner of faiths worshipping at Fatima and this example here shows how those who know nothing of christianity “could” think Mary is worshipped:
http://www.divinamisericordia.com/garabandal/fatima27.jpg
Where’s Jesus in all this? It’s meant to be all about Jesus. And many Catholics DO elevate Mary to equal footing with Jesus saying “Our Lord and Our Lady together can save us.” Also, the Marian shrines are a great cause of controversy with all manner of faiths worshipping at Fatima and this example here shows how those who know nothing of christianity “could” think Mary is worshipped:
http://www.divinamisericordia.com/garabandal/fatima27.jpg
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_Joshua
Guest
I personally don’t worship Mary, I give her honour, and so did Jesus at the foot of the cross.
I see no difference in asking Mary to pray for me than I see in asking you to pray for me, or the Saints.
We should only worship God, and what do you see in the picture anyway, can you look into the hearts of all the people in the crowd and say who is worshipping God ?
Can you pick out the ones that are worshipping Mary or honouring Mary, as we would honour our own mothers.
Aren’t we told to honour our mothers and fathers, as a Catholic I believe Mary is my Heavenly Mother, so therefore deserving of honour.
And yes some do seem to go overboard, but you can’t deny Lukes Gospel, when Mary declared Herself that all generations would call Her Blessed.
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Axion
Guest
No. You are being misled by a bad translation.
Let’s look at a word-for-word translation from an interlinear greek bible. What does Jesus **actually ** say?
John 2.4 Jesus said to her, What is that to Me and to you, woman? My hour is not yet come.
A little different from your translation above, no? It is more like “How does that concern affect us?” Which is similar to how the NASB puts it.
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Axion
Guest
The prophetic messages of Our lady of Fatima have had great impact on the world in this papacy. Should these messages be denied in order to please certain doubters? The messages forecast an attack upon the Pope, and also that if Russia was properly consecrated, the threat of world war and universal destruction would be averted. The Pope **was ** attacked, and shortly after the consecration was performed, communism miraculously disintegrated and the threat of world war receded. Should we really be so thankless as to keep silent after this?
I don’t think so. When non-christians see protestants kneeling and praying before a cross, or a bible, or their pastor, do they really think the cross or the bible or the pastor is being worshipped as a god? Of course not. And if they should happen to take this notion, they can quickly be told the truth.
I think this is more a concern of certain protestant fundamentalists who like to use Mary as a tool of division between themselves and Catholics and Orthodox Christians. I tend to get the feeling from your posts that fundamentalists of this sort are trying to encourage you into doubt about elements of the Faith.
Yes. Mary IS often prayed to. She is given to us by Jesus as a Spiritual mother, who takes our prayers to Jesus. Is Mary prayed to more than Jesus? Attend mass, and see who is at the centre of Catholic worship.
These are familiar protestant fundamentalist arguments. They falsely imagine that somehow Jesus and Mary are in competition. It’s a bit like saying that you don’t love your father because you also sometimes like to talk to your mother, or your sisters or brothers. There is no competition. Mary shows the way to Jesus.
Again this is an exageration, put about by enemies of the Church. There was an incident of abuse at Fatima, where someone from another religion was invited to pray by the superintendent. But that was quickly exposed by Catholics, and the superintendent has been hauled over the coals for this. However this is hardly to do with Marian Shrines as such. It has more to do with misplaced “Ecumenism.”
Hmmm. Do you see anyone in the picture worshipping the statue? Offering it sacrifices, libations?
You might as well say this photo shows how people **could ** think a rodent was being worshipped…
http://www.anderskrusberg.com/images/MickeyFloat.jpg
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quaysman
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**HAIL MICKEY???
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Benadam
Guest
I can agree since what Jesus meant was that the decision was a direct concern of His Father’s plan. The fact that Jesus authorized Mary’s decision concerning His Father’s plan proves that she was His mother in the fullest sense. She was indeed as Jesus showed minding her parental business.
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Katholikos
Guest
Just because some people don’t understand English, should we stop speaking English? NO!
Should Catholics change their beliefs and practices because they are misunderstood – or “could” be misunderstood – by Protestants? NO!
The official, authentic, teachings of the Catholic Church are readily available for all the world to know, but the know-nothings are ignorant of Catholicism and prefer to remain that way. Why learn the truth when they enjoy believing anti-Catholic myths, which gives them license to beat up the Church? To whom else would they be able to feel superior? Knowing the truth would spoil their enjoyment.
Even when told the truth, they refuse to believe it.
Protestants: Catholics worship Mary.
Catholics: No, we don’t worship Mary.
Protestants: Yes, you do. I know what you believe!
When a Protestant places his Bible on his bed and kneels before it to say his prayers, is he worshiping the Bible – or the bed?
The Pope speaks the language that I call “Catholic Shorthand.” It is idiomatic. All Catholics speak it. When the Pope thanked Our Lady Fatima for saving his life, he didn’t mean that he believes Mary had the power to save him. No, what he meant was that Mary interceded for him – prayed for him to God – and that God saved him through Mary. The Pope turned to look at an image of Our Lady of Fatima (it was her feast day) that was being held up by someone in the crowd just at the instant the assassin’s bullet was fired. Had the bullet hit him head on, he would have died instantly. But because he had turned, it hit him at an angle that caused a very critical wound, but it wasn’t instantly fatal. So he said, “Our Lady of Fatima saved my life.” Catholics all over the world understood what he meant – they talk that way, too (with the exception, apparently, of you).
The oldest known written prayer to Mary is dated from 235 A.D. and was found on a Greek papyrus. It is called in Latin the “Sub Tuum Praesidium” (under your protection): “We turn to you for protection, holy Mother of God. Listen to our prayers and help us in our needs. Save us from every danger, O glorious and blessed Virgin.”
Catholics did not believe in the first quarter of the third century nor do they believe now that Mary has any power but the power of prayer. She is a human being like us. But we believe she has the most powerful prayers of any of God’s creatures. Jesus, who is God, honors his Mother. We see that at Cana, where she asked Him to perform His first miracle, and He complied. When we say that Mary “saves” us, or ask her to “save” us, it is a figure of speech.
You claim to be Catholic. Perhaps you ought to understand what Catholics mean by what they say before you criticize. Cathlolicism has idioms – an expression of its culture – and yet you don’t seem to know that.
The Catholic Church is 16 centuries older than any Protestant church, and 20 centuries older than most of the existing churches today. I’m not going to stop practicing my religion because they don’t understand it – or misunderstand it.
Ave Cor Mariae!
JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
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puzzleannie
Guest
you have no personal knowledge of all about how I pray. Jesus gave the Lord’s Prayer to the apostles as a model of prayer, he never suggested this is the only prayer we are ever to use. He himself prayed frequently with the psalms, as the Church still does daily in the Liturgy of the Hours. He prayed with scripture, as the Church still does in the liturgy, and by urging all Catholics to read, study and pray with the bible. He intereceded on behalf of those he healed and forgave. Do you never pray for intercessions for your own needs, the needs of loved ones, the needs of your co-religionists, the needs of the world? Do you never ever pray in words other than those in the Lord’s Prayer? I very much doubt it. Do you never join your prayer with those of others? How could praying here on earth with those who share our beliefs differ from praying with Mary and the other Saints.
HINT: if you are going to go on internet forums of other religions with the purpose of attacking their beliefs, it behooves you to first learn what those beliefs are, state them accurately (good spelling and grammar are also assets) and then point out areas of disagreement. You will not win converts by lying and misprepresentation.
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LSK
Guest
I am sorry but I just don’t get the argument - whether we paraphrase the Bible or use a Greek translation or Hebrew translation or early American slang or anything else, the reality is that Catholic Christians use Apostolic Tradition, The Scripture and our present Teachers to help us understand the fullness of the Christian Faith. I see the story of the wedding and Mary’s request for help as differently than Xavier - but I was raised in the Church and received 12 years of a Catholic Education. To me there is no heresy about honoring the mother of Jesus. I do not worship her, I love her - as I love my own mother. I ask my mother to pray for me, why would I not ask Mary to pray for me?
This is silly. Sorry, but it is - and it is nothing to get angry about or to attack each other over. People getting angry and verbally beating each other up over questions of spiritual and religious beliefs is silly.
Let’s agree to disagree - faithful Catholics know the place Mary occupies in our hearts and our beliefs and we have pity for those who block themselves from this great source of love.
This is silly. Sorry, but it is - and it is nothing to get angry about or to attack each other over. People getting angry and verbally beating each other up over questions of spiritual and religious beliefs is silly.
Let’s agree to disagree - faithful Catholics know the place Mary occupies in our hearts and our beliefs and we have pity for those who block themselves from this great source of love.
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Michael_C
Guest
Good post puzzleannie, but isn’t this asking alot?
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MarkAnthonyCozy
Guest
When I meditate on scriptures I often place myself there in the thick of things, with Jesus and his disciples. Especially when partaking of the Eucharist I have sometimes sensed myself walking with Christ.
I’ve never read or heard this anywhere but I often get the impression that Jesus by some of his statements directs attention away from his mother for her own protection.
Look at what Jesus did for us and what his disciples endured for him. If I were Jesus I would seek to keep my mother out of harm’s way as much as I possibly could. I would not want my mother to watch me suffer and die. My mother’s tears and anguish over my suffering would be harder on me than the suffering itself.
One tactic would be to direct as much attention away from my mother as I possibly could until she would be safely taken up to heaven. I would subtly push her way because of my love and concern for her.
Of course none of Jesus attempts, if that’s what they were, to disway Mary ever worked. She followed her son all the way to the foot of the cross.
Is there any truth to this? Please advise.
I’ve never read or heard this anywhere but I often get the impression that Jesus by some of his statements directs attention away from his mother for her own protection.
Look at what Jesus did for us and what his disciples endured for him. If I were Jesus I would seek to keep my mother out of harm’s way as much as I possibly could. I would not want my mother to watch me suffer and die. My mother’s tears and anguish over my suffering would be harder on me than the suffering itself.
One tactic would be to direct as much attention away from my mother as I possibly could until she would be safely taken up to heaven. I would subtly push her way because of my love and concern for her.
Of course none of Jesus attempts, if that’s what they were, to disway Mary ever worked. She followed her son all the way to the foot of the cross.
Is there any truth to this? Please advise.
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Benadam
Guest
I think where Jesus probably felt the need to sheild Mary the most was also where He was respected the least, especially when His ministry went public. Like He said Himself, the meaning of His life was least accepted amongst His own family members. Imagine the emotional conflicts amongst His immediate peers. Those He went to school with, perhaps some who resented the attention He seemed to get as He grew in wisdom and stature among men. His presence I’m had a condemning effect on many as their sin became evident next to the Holy desires, and habits of Jesus. I’m also sure that she got the anger of those who felt their sins condemned who were afraid to open up their missles at Jesus and Mary being a woman and His mother presented an intimate eneogh relation to save face and an easier more approachable target. I think maybe Satan was at work like chinese water torture in this environment.
Mary most likely was Jesus’ model for peacemaker when He preached the sermon on the mount. Mary like Himself lived an exclusive life in that they were sinless. At the wedding of Cana when Mary requests Jesus’ work to begin Jesus’ words " what concern is this to you and I" can be taken to mean, Mother you and I are worthy of the ressurection, what is the giving and taking in marriage have to do with our life?
Remember that Mary did not want and feared no evil. In a way there was nothing to protect her from since for her everything was turned over to the good. I think Jesus admired her and was enthrawled at His Fathers creation in her perfection and at her best.
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mercygate
Guest
Markanthony and Benadam –
What beautiful, insightful meditations. My day is blessed!
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MaggieOH
Guest
I know of non-Christians who understand a lot more than you think about the honour that is given to Mary who is Mother of God.
The picture that you provided does not show an act of worship happening at all. Sure it is a procession and those present are giving honour to the Mother of God who is also the Mother of the Church, given to us by Jesus Christ at the foot of the Cross.
Maggie
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Bob_Rowland
Guest
For A Catholic with faith no defense of Mary is needed. Without faith no defense of Mary is possible.
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corkybob
Guest
Xavier said:
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corkybob
Guest
Xavier said:
#1 It has been perposed that when Christ was saying "Who are my mother and brothers, these are my mother and brothers who are do my work he was actually pointing back to Mary and Jesus’s cousins.
It would make sense since we as Christians support the idea that Jesus was the perfect man and he lived the mosaic law perfectly. To say that his mother and brothers were someone other then who they really were would be a great slight and would violate the 4th commandment to honor they father and mother.
#2 As far as the focusing on Mary, it isn’t so. Mary magnifies the Lord. When you focus on Mary she focus’s you on her son. What good Jewish mother wouldn’t tell you that she’s got a savior for you.
For Catholics it is a no brainer in our devotion to Mary. If we do get to carried away with out devotion to her she will always redirect out attention back to her son.
Pax
John
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Malachi4U
Guest
Xavier said:
I am a Christian (i.e. Catholic) who puts my Faith in Jesus not in a book. I am not a biblical Christian, I am a Christian who uses the Bible. Christian means one who follows Jesus not a book. A good Christian however should stay loyal to Jesus, His body His Catholic Church, and the tools His Church gave us which includes Tradition and the Bible that came from Tradition.
I am un-RE-formed as I am loyal to what Jesus taught. Why reform Jesus? Why be a schismatic?
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