Mt12 & Ma3 & Lu8/11: Marian heresy?

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When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, 42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
 
Xavier:
Mary said “do as He says” at the marriage feast. He says pray like this; Our Father…
Can you not see the disconnect?
Certainly. Your logic dictates that we pray to the Father alone… and never pray to Jesus.

No thanks.

BTW, if I post the crucifixion passages from the four gospels, would you then believe that there were 4 separate crucifixions?

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
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Xavier:
Mary said “do as He says” at the marriage feast. He says pray like this; Our Father…
Can you not see the disconnect?
I don’t see the “connect”. Are you refuting the revelation of God from the Old Testament by one phrase, taken out of context, to imply that God requires no other prayer to be said? Or that the OT lies when it shows intercession? If I had to give the one most frequent teaching in all of Scripture it would have to be intercession, easily, you’re attempting to say Jesus refutes this by giving an example of prayer to His Father? Intercession has ALWAYS been used by God. Why are you so adamant in refusing His gift?
 
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Xavier:
Mary said “do as He says” at the marriage feast. He says pray like this; Our Father…
Can you not see the disconnect?
I don’t see the “connect”. Are you refuting the revelation of God from the Old Testament by one phrase, taken out of context, to imply that God requires no other prayer to be said? Or that the OT lies when it shows intercession? If I had to give the one most frequent teaching in all of Scripture it would have to be intercession, easily, you’re attempting to say Jesus refutes this by giving an example of prayer to His Father? Intercession has ALWAYS been used by God. Why are you so adamant in refusing His gift?
 
I don’t think Xavier really wants an answer to a question, but is determined to get people to agree that what he thinks we believe about Mary is wrong. Well, I agree. What he thinks we believe about Mary IS wrong, in two ways. Number one, it is wrong in that it is wrong to elevate ANYONE or ANYTHING to God’s level. Number two, it is wrong in that what Xavier is thinks we believe about Mary IS NOT WHAT WE BELIEVE ABOUT MARY!:banghead:

Xavier, I don’t see you being willing to consider that perhaps what you think Catholics believe is not what Catholics believe. You argue heresy in every thread I’ve seen you in. While I don’t dispute that the beliefs and practices you chastise are wrong, I do dispute that those practices and beliefs are Catholic doctrine. Perhaps you should explore why it feels so necessary for you to convert all Catholics to your way of thinking?

sincerely,
deborah1313
 
Blessed are those who hear the word of God? What about this about Mary from Luke chapter 1:

45: “And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”

No one has heard the word and believed it and obeyed it as well as Mary did. She actually bore the Word of God in her womb. Let’s obey the Bible and call Mary “blessed”.
 
Xavier said:
MATTHEW12:47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 12:48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 12:49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, **"Here are My mother and My brothers! **12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." MARK

3:32
And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers F14 are outside seeking You.” 3:33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, **“Here are My mother and My brothers! **3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother." LUKE8
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.

11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"
Context:
Jesus was teaching when he was interrupted on each occassion he continued to teach but he addresses the focus that was placed on Mary taking that focus away from Mary and back to kingdom principles. Clearly Mary is a woman of faith and did Gods will, Jesus would not however on 4 count four different occassions to let the focus be on her.
Clearly if you say your are a biblical Christian you have to question Marian Doctrine.

So, are you saying that Mary did not hear the word of God and **keep it, **or not do the will of God?

Was Jesus preaching about becoming part of his family and receiving his blessing through obedience through faith here?

Penalty: Fifteen yards for piling on!
 
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Xavier:
I have asked a question in lieu of scripture why do Catholics, who say they are bible believing Christians, continue to ignore those things that clearly contradict your doctrine.
I can see you are unable to answer that.
Xavier,
What I can see is that you are here with a preconceived notion and are frustrated because we don’t bail from the faith because of your great discourse.

1st. You have not given any evidence that what we believe is contradicted by the passages that you cite here. All this is is your personal, interpretation of this passage and your opinion that our belief and practice contradicts it. This has already been answered above by several lengthy posts that you have no answer for.

2nd. You have no concept of the VERY Biblical role that the Blessed Virgin plays in the kingdom of God because of he simple gact that she is the mother of Jesus…who is the Messiah, King of kings and Lord of Lords. I URGE you to get ouit that Strong’s exhaustive that you probably have lying there and look up the Hebrew word “Giberah” and see what it means and then research who they were and how they got that position and then just what their function was. Since this position was established by the Davidic kings of Israel and Jesus is indeed a king from David’s line then the rest is pretty self evident from that context.

There is no “Marian heresy” in the Catholic Church.

Pax vobiscum,
 
Xavier said:
MATTHEW****12:47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 12:48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 12:49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” MARK

3:32
And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers F14 are outside seeking You.” 3:33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” LUKE8
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

11:27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Context:
Jesus was teaching when he was interrupted on each occassion he continued to teach but he addresses the focus that was placed on Mary taking that focus away from Mary and back to kingdom principles. Clearly Mary is a woman of faith and did Gods will, Jesus would not however on 4 count four different occassions to let the focus be on her.
Clearly if you say your are a biblical Christian you have to question Marian Doctrine.

Interesting argument. Wrong conclusion.

Matthew 12, Mark 3 and Luke 8 are all the same incident. So, it happened once.

And understand that incident: He wasn’t gainsaying His mother: He was telling the crowd, “Look, folks, my family is important…but YOU are MORE important.”

The Church’s Mariology is that Mary’s vocation as Queen of Heaven and Earth is only secondarily a position of honor.

Primarily, it is a mission of service.

That is the logic of being one of God’s soldiers: It is an honor to be chosen to serve the Master.

Once you are saved, you understand this.

The Luke 11 verses reflect neither affirmatively nor negatively on Mary.

The woman calling out says that Mary was lucky to have a kid like Jesus.

Jesus answers, “You have it wrong! The person who seizes salvation is the lucky one!”

John 2, the Wedding Feast at Cana, is the allegory which defines Mary’s role in the salvation process.

Note in that story: (1) Mary intercedes; (2) Jesus tells her to mind her own business, and that it’s simply not time; (3) Mary ignores the rebuke, confident that Jesus will abide by her wishes, though God surely does not need her help; (4) Jesus, against all expectations, and against God’s timing, abides by her wishes, and helps out!

You are looking at a Biblical word picture of Mary’s role as “special intercessor.”

Note that Jesus, when He rebukes her, calls her “woman.”

Then go to John 19:26. There Jesus says, “Woman, there is your son.” That is Mary’s commission to begin the intercessory work portayed at the marriage feast.
 
:clapping: I have to agree with some of our posters here. As a former protestant the Our Father was a prayer seldom used. In fact most prayer was ‘conversational’, non-structured and developed as it was said.

Our friend X is saying that Christ taught us to pray “Our Father”…so if we say a Hail Mary, Glory Be etc. we are not following Jesus…perhaps he could elucidate and advise exactly **which **church it is that he attends where the Lord’s Prayer **alone **is the only prayer used, in keeping with his hypothesis and the notion of sola scriptura?

Blessings to all,

Susan
 
Actually when Jesus calls Mary “woman” he is referring to her as the New Eve. No insult at all. Rather it is a pointed reference to Marys role in God’s plan of salvation.
 
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Xavier:
How can you protect against heresy when you back right into one?
So your saying your going to do what your think is right even if it contrary to gods word?
Is not Mary placed in a position reserved for only God?
Mary says to do as he tells you, when His disciples asked how we pray Jesus responded:???
Yet you insist on praying differently.
In what possible way shape or form can obeying Jesus Christ be contrary to God’s word?
Jesus gave us the supreme example of how to pray when He gave us the Our Father. He did not say this is absolutely the only words or formula you are ever to use. He himself prayed with the psalms and scripture frequently. The Marian prayers are drawn directly from scripture, and direct us to meditate on the events of Christ’s incarnation, birth, life, suffering, death and resurrection and establishement of His kingdom. They are completely and entirely scriptural. There can be no competition between Christ and his mother, who directs us to obedience to the will of His Father.

Your questions and objections have been answered fully and completely and accurate, you have been directed to excellent links which provide even fuller teaching. You have been answered, you choose to reject the answer. The loss is yours. When a woman marries a man, does she ignore, put down, reject his mother? Not if she wants a happy marriage.
 
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Xavier:
Mary said “do as He says” at the marriage feast. He says pray like this; Our Father…
Can you not see the disconnect?
I have already seen some very good answers to this question. There is no disconnect except in the imagination of the dissenter.

There is a total difference in circumstances and meaning here:
  1. Mary was speaking to the servants and she was pointing to her Son as the one to be obeyed.
  2. Jesus was responding to a question by the Apostles when they asked him how to pray. Therefore when He says: “pray like this” he is suggesting a method of praying the perfect prayer of repentance.
Jesus did not demand that we were not to pray the Psalms. Rather He was giving us a prayer that is one of many prayers, and He continues to give prayers to those who believe in His Presence today.

Maggie
 
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cestusdei:
Actually when Jesus calls Mary “woman” he is referring to her as the New Eve. No insult at all. Rather it is a pointed reference to Marys role in God’s plan of salvation.
Well, forget the word “woman.” He WAS redressing her. Read the rest of the statement…

"How does your concern affect me?"

He wasn’t commencing an intellectual analysis, there. He was saying, “Mind your own business.”
 
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BibleReader:
Well, forget the word “woman.” He WAS redressing her. Read the rest of the statement…

"How does your concern affect me?"

He wasn’t commencing an intellectual analysis, there. He was saying, “Mind your own business.”
The context of the verse disagrees with you. Please read on and see what happens next, because a very confident Mary turned to the servant and said: Do whatever he tells you.

It was not a dressing down or an admonition of Mary. It was a statement concerning what was to take place, and that Jesus was about to commence His public life.

Maggie
 
As a former Southern Baptist, I can state that the prayers of Protestants are the most repetitious and uninspiring I’ve ever heard --Father God we just thank you for . . . and Lord we just ask you to . . . and Lord we just praise you for . . . and Father God we just come before you to . . . and Lord we just ask you to bless . . . and other trite phrases are heard over and over and over and over again. Just listen to the preachers on TBN for a while and you’ll see what I mean. Catholics pray “spontaneous” prayers – but they also have at their disposal some of the most meaningful, poetic, and beautiful prayers the human mind can create – words that lift the soul and send it soaring.

. . . and Lord we just ask you to enlighten our brother Xavier about the True Church you founded for his salvation and the salvation of the whole world, and Lord we just thank you for giving us the True Faith that comes to us from the Apostles . . .

JMJ Jay
 
Xavier wrote: Clearly if you say your are a biblical Christian you have to question Marian Doctrine.
Xavier, you’ve got it backwards. The Catholic Church didn’t come out of the Bible; the Bible came out of the Catholic Church when she was nearly 400 years old. The NT is a mirror reflection of what the Church was teaching at the time she wrote it. When the Church selected the contents of the NT, she selected only those writings that reflected her teaching. So any interpretation that does not comport with the teaching of the Catholic Church is a misinterpretation.

Peace be with you and with all who post at Catholic Answers.

JMJ Jay
 
cestusdei wrote: Actually when Jesus calls Mary “woman” he is referring to her as the New Eve. No insult at all. Rather it is a pointed reference to Marys role in God’s plan of salvation.
Thank you, cestusdei. You are a true scholar. You are absolutely right, of course. I know you didn’t need me to tell you that, but I wanted to call attention to your post. I hope everyone reads it.

Xavier and others are reading these verses with a 21st century mindset and are judging Jesus’ words by the way language is used today. That’s not the way Scripture should be read – not if we want to know what it really means.

JMJ Jay
 
Xavier seems very tore up about Mary and the Church. Here is a question we must ask. This is specifically a Catholic website and Q & A. Why then is he on here if he clearly is not a Catholic and is at great odds with our teachings.

If one studies The Hail Mary, it is a composition of Luke’s Gospel, the part where most Protestants stay far away from. Mary herself says she is blessed, yet no lighting strikes on her, no Earth opening up to swallow her and so forth. At the end of the Hail Mary, it says " and pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" We ask Mary to pray for us and interced as she did in John 2. We DO NOT ask her to forgive our sins, save us, etc.

Xavier may want to look into another site in which to opine.
 
I guess my being a Rhetoric major from Berkeley has me confused - wouldn’t our devotion to the Blessed Mother be a heresy if we considered her on the same level as Jesus?

I don’t know any faithful Catholic who regards Mary as a god or a goddess, so it would seem to me that the scripture passages you quote merely underscore her practice of humility - a practice we, as Christians, should emulate on a daily basis.

Does that make sense?:love:
 
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