B
Booklover
Guest
What’s funny is that he’s saying this about the “God of Abraham” whom they say they worship!
Vickie
- Status
Vickie
K
Khalfan
Guest
K
Khalfan
Guest
No. That is a mockery of God in OT by someone and you are supposed to believe it.
K
Khalfan
Guest
I can’t laugh at Jesus (pbuh) my dear. Take advantage.MOON SPLIT IN HALF.:bounce: :whacky:
I believe in Jesus (pbuh) and in his miracles. Not that he made the perfect wine in the world and made all drink. But healing and giving life to dead.
Y
yannick
Guest
It’s no doubt an interesting story but no compelling proof is given for what looks to me like a lot of assumptions taken as facts.
K
Khalfan
Guest
You are wrong. Even if you tell me ‘I want to convert to Islam’, I would say learn your religion first. Then you learn Islam. Because if you jump to Islam or to any other religion before understand Christianity well, you will keep on jumping from one to another. Make it a habit to learn your religion and I am giving you points to be noted in your Holy Bible.
B
Booklover
Guest
Exoflare asked for the verses in the Bible that claim that God is a pedophile and you have not provided them!
Vickie
B
Booklover
Guest
K
Khalfan
Guest
It seems you don’t know what you are talking about. Earlier you said Mohamed (pbuh) forced all to believe in him from their own religions. Now you are saying these believers (made out of threatening and forcing) made miraculous stories to make other people believe in him!! That is self contradicting. You have to stick to your argument. Either the followers loved him (because they believed in his words) or hated him (becasue they were converted forcefully and naturally they will not go for stories to support his mission).
What Jesus (pbuh) did when he was asked to do miracle according to Bible?
Mt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.
Mt 12:39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Lk 11:29 As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) did the same to the people who were keep on asking miracles. In other way, Quran was(is) the greatest miracle he could give.
Here ‘MHalsey’ in 807too asked me the miracles of Prophet (pbuh) but except Quran.
Time will prove that.
But in that day, many will have to stay away from him as per Jesus (pbuh).
Mt 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name (only Christians do that!), and in Your name cast out demons (only Christians do that!!), and in Your name perform many miracles (only Christians do that!!!)?’ 23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ He will tell this to Christians only.
M
MHalsey
Guest
Since the Old Testament has to do almost entirely with the Israelites, it takes an enormous act of supposition that this passage refers to a descendant of Ishmael. And you have to make this giant leap otherwise you cannot prove Muhammad as a prophet. Also, I’d like to see you trace Muhammad’s lineage back about 2500 years to the time of Ishmael.
Nice try Khalfan, but the words of Jesus’ followers is he is THE Prophet, not A prophet. They knew exactly what they were saying, and so did Jesus.
The reason I brought up miracles, is that Moses asked God how he was to prove he was God’s messenger to the Israelites. All the miracles you mention in your subsequent posts are stories told after Muhammad was already dead. But like you said, “you should understand that there will be many people who can do miracles but not from God.” So, if that’s the case, then the proof of a true messenger from God is in his message. And we’ve already been down that road.
K
Khalfan
Guest
You can check it with the context.All taken out of context by Muslim “scholars”!
Vickie
K
Khalfan
Guest
Do you say Mohamed (pbuh) was not from the lineage of Ismael (pbuh)? Then I will bring proof. Becasue it is the first time I hear something like that, uttering anything to keep the debate on.
Secondly, 2500 years is nothing for God.
Jesus (pbuh) is supposed to be A prophet like Moses (pbuh) as per Duet prophecy my dear.
Yes we are and Quran is the message of God that confirms the messages came before.
M
MHalsey
Guest
No, I’m saying prove it. Show me his lineage father to son from Ishmael down to Muhammad.
Coming from you, this is a bit much. Considering how this debate is really about your prophet.
So you’re are God now?? I asked YOU to prove, not God.
No, “my dear” (gotta love your condescending tone). You are trying to change what is actually written. Jesus is THE Prophet. He is also God, but since you are not going to believe it…
The Quran bears no relation to any message sent before. It contradicts all that is written in the Old and New Testaments.
K
Khalfan
Guest
The following was taken from infidels.org/library/modern/guido_deimel/judaism.html regarding Numbers 31:17-18 in the Bible:
“They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man…Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)”
Children
Sometimes one has to read a passage twice to believe what has been written in the Sacred Books of Judaism: what has been decreed the way to a holy life by the “sages of blessed memory… whose words are the natural sounds of Judaism” [131]:
Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4]. Sanhedrin 7/55B [132]
R. Nahman bar Isaac said. “They made the decree that a gentile child should be deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15], so that an Israelite child should not hang around with him and commit pederasty [as he does].”
For said R. Zira, "I had much anguish with R. Assi, and R. Assi with R. Yohanan, and R. Yohanan with R. Yannai, and R. Yannai with R. Nathan b. Amram, and R. Nathan b. Amram with Rabbi [on this matter]: ‘From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]’? And he said to me, ‘On the day on which he is born.’ But when I came to R. Hiyya, he said to me, ‘From the age of nine years and one day.’ And when I came and laid the matter before Rabbi, he said to me, ‘Discard my reply and adopt that of R. Hiyya, who declared, “From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]? From the age of nine years and one day.”’
[37A] Since he is then suitable for having sexual relations, he also is deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [of Lev.15]."
Said Rabina, "Therefore a gentile girl who is three years and one day old, since she is then suitable to have sexual relations, also imparts uncleanness of the flux variety."
That is self-evident! Abodah Zarah 36B-37A [133]
Continue.
K
Khalfan
Guest
Continue.
The basis for these rulings is the following Mishnaic passage of Tractate Niddah (filth):
A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. “A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse,” the words of R. Meir. And sages say, “Three years and one day old.”
And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. If she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. If one of those who are unfit for marriage has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her did so, they are put to death on her account. But she is free of responsibility.
If she is younger than that age, intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye. (Mishnah Niddah 5:4) [134]
Thus, one “of the many important issues worked out in the Mishnah concerns proper conduct with women,” [135] and the “entire society of Judaism – that is, the community formed by the Torah – found in the Talmud those modes of thought and inquiry, those media of order and value, that guided the formation of public affairs and private life as well.” [136]
While it is reassuring to see there was at least some limit as to what the sages would declare holy and moral, this ruling had severe implications on the interpretation of other topics as well. The Tannaﴩc Midrash Sifre to Numbers in ?157 comments on the above quoted commandment of Moses to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children:
“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known a man by sleeping with him.(Num 31:17).
[This] refers to her who has slept with a man as well as her who is suitable for intercourse, even when she has not slept with a man…
But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. From here R. Shimon b. Yohai used to say: a Proselyte girl who became a proselyte in the age of less than three years and one day, is rendered fit to marry into the priesthood.” [137]
[131] Ibid., vol.XXI.A-D, Tractate Bava Mesia, Atlanta: Scholars Press 1990, p.ix-x.
[132] Ibid., vol.XXIII.B, Tractate Sanhedrin 1984, 150. See also vol.XIX.A, Tractate Qiddushin 10a-b, 1992, 33. “Menstruating” here of course refers to the ritual “flux uncleanness” described in Lev.15.
[133] Ibid., vol.XXV.A, Tractate Abodah Zarah, 1991, 168. Emphasis original.
[134] J. Neusner, The Talmud of Babylonia. A complete outline, Part IV. The Division of Holy Things. B. Number 37. 1995, 704.
[135] Neusner 1993, 41.
[136] Neusner 1995, 7.
[137] Kuhn 1959, ?157, 652f. My translation. In general, proselytes are not allowed to marry into the priesthood.
[138] Ibid., ?157, footnote 86, 653.
Here it is explained
Now read the below with above verses.
Numbers 31:35 and of human beings, of the women who had not known man intimately, all the persons were 32,000.
36 The half, the portion of those who went out to war, was as follows:
40and the human beings (virgin girls from 3 years) were 16,000, from whom the LORD’S levy was 32 persons.
We know why the virgin girls were kept for men. What God was doing with the virgin (special demand) girls?
The basis for these rulings is the following Mishnaic passage of Tractate Niddah (filth):
A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. “A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse,” the words of R. Meir. And sages say, “Three years and one day old.”
And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. If she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. If one of those who are unfit for marriage has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her did so, they are put to death on her account. But she is free of responsibility.
If she is younger than that age, intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye. (Mishnah Niddah 5:4) [134]
Thus, one “of the many important issues worked out in the Mishnah concerns proper conduct with women,” [135] and the “entire society of Judaism – that is, the community formed by the Torah – found in the Talmud those modes of thought and inquiry, those media of order and value, that guided the formation of public affairs and private life as well.” [136]
While it is reassuring to see there was at least some limit as to what the sages would declare holy and moral, this ruling had severe implications on the interpretation of other topics as well. The Tannaﴩc Midrash Sifre to Numbers in ?157 comments on the above quoted commandment of Moses to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children:
“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known a man by sleeping with him.(Num 31:17).
[This] refers to her who has slept with a man as well as her who is suitable for intercourse, even when she has not slept with a man…
But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. From here R. Shimon b. Yohai used to say: a Proselyte girl who became a proselyte in the age of less than three years and one day, is rendered fit to marry into the priesthood.” [137]
According to the Tannaﴥ Rabbis, Moses therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were “suitable for having sexual relations.” [138]
Bibliography:[131] Ibid., vol.XXI.A-D, Tractate Bava Mesia, Atlanta: Scholars Press 1990, p.ix-x.
[132] Ibid., vol.XXIII.B, Tractate Sanhedrin 1984, 150. See also vol.XIX.A, Tractate Qiddushin 10a-b, 1992, 33. “Menstruating” here of course refers to the ritual “flux uncleanness” described in Lev.15.
[133] Ibid., vol.XXV.A, Tractate Abodah Zarah, 1991, 168. Emphasis original.
[134] J. Neusner, The Talmud of Babylonia. A complete outline, Part IV. The Division of Holy Things. B. Number 37. 1995, 704.
[135] Neusner 1993, 41.
[136] Neusner 1995, 7.
[137] Kuhn 1959, ?157, 652f. My translation. In general, proselytes are not allowed to marry into the priesthood.
[138] Ibid., ?157, footnote 86, 653.
Here it is explained
Now read the below with above verses.
Numbers 31:35 and of human beings, of the women who had not known man intimately, all the persons were 32,000.
36 The half, the portion of those who went out to war, was as follows:
40and the human beings (virgin girls from 3 years) were 16,000, from whom the LORD’S levy was 32 persons.
We know why the virgin girls were kept for men. What God was doing with the virgin (special demand) girls?
K
Khalfan
Guest
More than 100,000 companians (whoever lived at the time usman (ra)) approved the copy of Quran that usman (ra) compiled (This mission was started by the first Kaliph within one year of the death of Prophet Mohamed (pbhu)). Isn’t that enough evident for the authenticity of Quran that it was the same all they have learned from the Prophet (pbuh) directly? For me, it is.
M
MHalsey
Guest
All very interesting, but where in the Bible does it say they slept with them?? Also my Bible doesn’t give the age of the females in verse 40. I am assuming you added that to make it look like it’s part of the Bible.
Since you cannot prove it with any book, chapter and verse from the Bible, and have to rely on an anti-christian website, we should assume you can’t answer it.
B
Booklover
Guest
B
Booklover
Guest
It just authenticates that Muhammad was the writer, nothing else! Knowing the author, does not make the book true or prove that it came from God!
Vickie
J
jonfan
Guest
I am sorry I just can’t believe that Mohammed’s message is on the same level as Jesus’ message.
For example:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, “In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection.”
For example:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, “In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection.”
- Status