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expounder
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Jesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament: “Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)” It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honour the Old Testament and did say that every single “letter” of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.
Matthew 23:1-3 “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’ (Matthew 23:1-3)” We clearly see in these verses that Jesus peace be upon him did not prohibit for the Old Testament to be followed, but only warned his followers to not follow it the way the current religious leaders of the Law (the Jewish Rabies) were following it.
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jakasaki
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Ah, very good my dear friend: You got most of right but not quite right
If you have 3 minutes, you need to read the whole thing. It’s from the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus will let you know that laws he is talking about.
It;s all in Matthew chapter 5 - read the whole chapter and frankly, it won’t even take you 3 minutes, but perhaps 60 to 90 seconds.
If you wish, I can send you the link…
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jakasaki
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Once again, I’ll guide you to the whole chapter of Matthew 23.
Jesus talkes about hypocrites, being the Pharisees,
It’s an awesome chapter. Again, this will only take about 60 to 90 seconds to read
And as I said earlier, if you wish me to link the chapter, I shall do so.
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expounder
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Matthew 23:34-39
So God declares the miseries the inhabitants of Jerusalem were about to bring upon themselves, but he does not notice the sufferings he was to undergo. How is that possible, he’s God, omniscient,knowledgeable about everything, coupled with an understanding incomprehensible by humans…
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expounder
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Was the law of the Old Testament destroyed by Christ’s crucification? Luke16:16, Ephesians 2:15 & Romans 7:6 says that the old law is no longer binding. Yet verses like in Matthew 5:17-19 say that the old law is forever binding. Why this contradiction, explain it to me please.
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expounder
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Jesus himself was an observant Jew. From what i’ve heard Christians take the example of Jesus and try to be like him as much as possible, in character and actions. It is to the point of madness to choose some parts but reject other parts. Having the intention of looking at all of Jesus’ example and acting on them is what i would say is a good Christian. So why pick and choose?
More to the point, if Jesus did not want Christians to follow the OT, why would Jesus choose to follow the OT if he wanted Christians to then reject it?
More to the point, if Jesus did not want Christians to follow the OT, why would Jesus choose to follow the OT if he wanted Christians to then reject it?
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jakasaki
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This thread has gone from “Muhammad rejected Christianity/Jesus”
To Bible discusion ~
Expounder:
Please create a new thread to discuss these questions you have regarding Biblical scripture.
I can see the Mod(s) coming in here and closing this thread because it’s gone off course and completely de-railed.
Take care:
To Bible discusion ~
Expounder:
Please create a new thread to discuss these questions you have regarding Biblical scripture.
I can see the Mod(s) coming in here and closing this thread because it’s gone off course and completely de-railed.
Take care:
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LtTony
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Second that motion.
You expressed that beautifully. But there are (permitted) relationships with God/Allah that differ from yours.
Exactly. In a spiritual sense, we never die. Our human bodies do, like that of Jesus.
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TheSufi
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That’s fine. I have no problem with Judaism or Christianity. Somethings I simply don’t agree with them on certain theological issues…
Yeah I simply do not accept the concept that Jesus is God. Based on my objective study of the Gospel of Jesus, (I say objective study because I am about to say things that Muslims might disagree, maybe not in meaning but in wording).
(If I rely completely on the Gospel and the Old Testament)
I do not think Jesus ever taught that He was God, in the sense of the creator of all things.
Jesus was a Jew first and foremost. So he spoke with a Jewish tongue. So his words would have to be in the context of Jewish tradition. So if I were to systematize his saying in the form of a creed. I would articulate it as such.
- Jesus is an Elohim (god) but he is not El (the creator).
- He came to teach us that we to are Elohim (god).
- Jesus and the Father are one, yet we are no different than Jesus, we too are one with the Father.
- The difference between Jesus and us, and he is realized in His connection with the Father, while we are unrealized in this connection.
- Once we become realized in this connection, we too will be like Jesus and do greater works than Jesus.
- We are all children of God, Jesus is termed Only begotten, because He is fully reborn in the Spirit. Once we become fully reborn we too will be Only Begotten, (this word in greek, doesn’t literally mean only begotten, it really means unique). Jesus is unique in that he fully realized in his connection with God and knows He is one with the Father, in the real sense.
- God (El) is not a man that he should lie, nor the son of man that he should repent.
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TheSufi
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Not everybody is spiritual. And these non-spiritual people exist in all religions. They are the core reason, religions are failings. Sometimes these non-spiritual people become leaders and change core aspects of the religion. And this leads to downfall or the watering down of religion. And I think this is true for all religions.Second that motion.
You expressed that beautifully. But there are (permitted) relationships with God/Allah that differ from yours.
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expounder
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That actually makes sense to me
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bsroufek
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Jesus claimed equality with God a number of times very emphatically. For this, the Jews
wanted to stone him. The Gospels clearly explain this.
Believing Jesus is God The (only) Son is necessary for eternal life. His crucifiction was
fortold as a sacrifice for our sins. His resurrection was necessary to destoy death.
The scripture you read and try to understand, but don’t understand from your list above, is
written by the Church and is interpreted by the Church during homilies at the Holy Mass.
I pray that the veil will be lifted from your eyes so that you too can see that Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him.
wanted to stone him. The Gospels clearly explain this.
Believing Jesus is God The (only) Son is necessary for eternal life. His crucifiction was
fortold as a sacrifice for our sins. His resurrection was necessary to destoy death.
The scripture you read and try to understand, but don’t understand from your list above, is
written by the Church and is interpreted by the Church during homilies at the Holy Mass.
I pray that the veil will be lifted from your eyes so that you too can see that Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him.
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TheSufi
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After reading what you wrote.
Spiritually speaking, i don’t think God would ever become a man. Why would he?
Logically speaking, it is impossible for God to become man. How can that which is infinite become finite and still be infinite?
**Old Testament speaking, God would never become man, it specifically says, in the old testament, God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man that he should repent. (Number 23:19)
**
In regards to reasoning it through, Jesus dying for our sins. Jesus being God. In catholic reasoning, for it to work Jesus had to be God, because the sacrifice has to be equal to that which you sin again or that which you have wronged. I don’t know if this catholic reasoning is based in Judaic Thought. I would have to research that. I don’t have an opinion on this right now, I would have to look into that.
Based Orthodox theology, God became man so that man might become god. I some what understand this line of reasoning to a certain extend.
Just based on human reasoning, it is possible for God to become man. Based on the reasoning that God can do anything.
I don’t know if there are any other types of reasoning that I forgot.
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TheSufi
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If you read the whole passage from John 10:30-36. You might get a better understanding of what I am saying.
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Kaninchen
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MartinJordan
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TheSufi
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I said from John 10:30- 36… It is in reference to what he is specifically speaking about when the Jew, understood from Jesus’ speech, I and my Father are one. The Jews understood this to mean, that Jesus was calling himself God. And Jesus refutes this belief and explains, we are all gods. He was not different than those whom he was sent to…Since when was John 10:36 the whole passage?
MJ
In essense what Jesus is saying, I am not the only one who is god (elohim) you too are god elohim. We are all one with the Father. (referencing: Pslams 82:6 We are all gods (Elohim) children of the Most High (El Elyon-if my memory serves me right that is the hebrew word being used).
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MartinJordan
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You are correct (mostly) upto verse 36 but note Jesus was not finished speaking
verse 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do: though you will not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
39 They sought, therefore, to take him: and he escaped out of their hands.
Thus goes further explaining who HE is. Jesus is claiming he is God!
MJ
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TheSufi
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If one is fair, it can go either way. The early Church fathers understood, when Jesus was quoting psalms 82:6, that jesus was insisting that if you can be called gods, I have a better right to be God. So I am well aware of some of Christian commentary regarding these verses.
But I think it is stretch, being that Jesus was a Jew.
Moses was called Elohim in the old testament and Aaron was his prophet. (Exodux 7:1) Perhaps this is what Jesus was referring, He is the Representative of God on Earth so to speak, than all major prophets, have a right to called God…
Maybe major all major Prophets, are God incarnate, much like Hindus, who believe, their major prophets are Avatars, like Krishna, the Budda, and others. Just a reflection. One would need to find a better explanation for this in Islamic terminology or Jewish terminology. I will have to look into this a little further, there are people who hold this belief, for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad that they were Avatars. I will try and look into their reasoning.
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