Muhammad rejected Christianity/Jesus

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thesufi said:
that is a bit of a stretch.

They were all angels, if you actually study the old testament, when ever man interacted with god on a personal level, especially when anthropomorphic descriptions are given, it was an angel.** i mean, even with “virgin mary,” in luke it specifically says gabriel went in unto her, then she was with child. And then jesus becomes the son of god. However it appears jesus was really the son of gabriel.**
israel wrestling with god, when you look further into the verses, it was an angel. It was part of the eloquence of the hebrew (aramaic language). There is a verse in the old testament that describes god as a man of war. And the old testament is filled with anthropomrophic description of god, yet jews never saw god as a man.

There is a correlation between angels and god in the old testament.
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How Dare you insult our blessed mother Mary
you have taken this too far
 
TheSufi said:
He has no children nor was He born (Quran 112:3)

I too, believe Mary is the Blessed Virgin Mother of Jesus. I was merely showing that if I wanted to create a narrative, outside the one we are use to (Mary being a Virgin), I could also and bring proof support it. I am only aware of this heresy because I came across it a while back. It was rather thought provoking to say the less.

So what does all these mean.

Judaism has a narrative, Christianity has a narrative and Islam has a narrative. And we interpret scripture to prove our narrative. It is our narrative that causes us to denounce new prophets. Jews denounce Jesus not because of lack of proof, but because of the narrative they follow. Similarly Christians denounce Muhammad of because of lack of proof but because it doesn’t fit into the narrative they follow.

Muhammad said that his nation would follow the same footstep in deviancy as the previous nation (ie the followers of Jesus, and the followers of Moses). Why is this important? We too believe in return of Jesus. I say, if I remain firm on our narrative, perhaps I will miss Jesus when he returns. So I have to open minded.

Christian say it is about belief in Christ, surely that isn’t enough. Jesus said, "Many will say to me on that day, Lord Lord have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name? And then I will declare, I never knew you."

So with that said, I don’t think the narrative of the modern Catholic church is the same narrative of the early Christians. I even say this about the Muslims, and I think Muslims have a better method of preserving tradition than Christians do. I am in search of the early narrative of the Christians. I think the Catholic are more authentic than the Protestants, but I think the Orthodox are more authentic than the Catholics. I don’t really care what the Council of Nicaea says to a certain extent. What they say does have value, but I am not convinced that it is the narrative of the early Christians.

There were many different types of Christians during the early church, which group of Christians were correct. It only makes sense that each group probably has their origin with one of the disciples of Jesus. It also seems reasonable, that the Jewish early Christians saw Jesus as a man. However it also seems reasonable that the early gentile Christians saw Jesus as God. I think because both groups had roots to one of the disciples, the early Church fathers merged both group together. Essentially what I believe, the reason why Christian believe Jesus is God is because of early gentile Christians who did not have the Jewish narrative to prevent from saying Jesus was God.

I hope that makes sense.
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All I can see here Sufi is what I can safely vouch is you are trying to pit Christians against Christians. It is a shame you need to resort to Orthodox vs Catholic in particular. Both us Apostolic churches believe in the Divinity of Jesus and that He is the mediator between God and Man.

MJ
 
expounder said:
Muslims believe in Mary too… I don’t think he would want to insult Mary.
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Please ExPounder -

Mary of the Quran, other than the confirming the “Virgin” is a completely different person than the Mary as we know from the New Testament.

And please don’t preach to me that Mary has an entire Sura in the Quran about her.

Not interested.
 
jakasaki said:
Please ExPounder -

Mary of the Quran, other than the confirming the “Virgin” is a completely different person than the Mary as we know from the New Testament.

And please don’t preach to me that Mary has an entire Sura in the Quran about her.

Not interested.
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😉 Why sister in Christ you are not interested to hear about :
Miriam the daughter of Amram whom born around 1500 years before “Jesus” !!!
Miriam who gave birth to “Jesus” in the winter when there was dates on the palm trees !!!
Miriam who gave birth to “Jesus” under the palm tree instead of the manger !!!
Miriam who Muhammed claims that he will marry in Paradise !!!
 
If Muslims (at least some) believe that the “Jewish narrative” prevented the Jews from
believing in the Divinity of Jesus, then how do you explain the Early Church, which began
mostly Jewish?
 
MartinJordan said:
Gabrielof12, while I can see there is this possibility Islam or rather Mohammed was influenced by heretical Arians there is still the question of why there was no talk about or lets say why messages Mohammed received apparently from God, never spoke about the Councils that defended the divinity of Jesus?

If there was any such information info atleast hinting of the Councils right from the “revelations” get go, minimally because they deal with heretics and the Church then we can take seriously Islams claims of Jesus being a prophet at the most and not the begotten Son of God.

MJ
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There is record that the Catholic Church learned of this new heresy from the Arab Territories. The church councils usually dubbed a heresy after it’s founding father. The church considered Islam in the beginning a Christian heresy from the east and labeled it Muhammadism, which is a term that is not used today by the Church to identify Islam.

The concept of Jesus from which I speak, comes from the thinking and sentiments of when the early Catholic Church considered Islam a Christian heresy from it was founded by Muhammad.

This Church had already confirmed that Muhammad’s views of Jesus were already rejected by the Catholic Church and considered heretical. The mistake was that the Church authorities did not take this heresy very seriously. Maybe because none of the clergy were teaching or making claims to an Islam Jesus, only the already exiled Arian heresies, which Islam adopted the Arain Christian heretical view of Jesus.
 
Jesus is the Living God and also claimed this in the NT. The example left by him completes His resume.

I lose this last testament, Jesus is a prophet thinking. I see this, that had Mohammed indeed believed Jesus was not God, why then would Jesus be considered a Prophet in Islam?

Either Jesus was exactly who he said He is {God], or he is a liar or delusional. If that’s the case why would He be a prophet in Islam? 🤷
 
GaryTaylor said:
Jesus is the Living God and also claimed this in the NT. The example left by him completes His resume.

I lose this last testament, Jesus is a prophet thinking. I see this, that had Mohammed indeed believed Jesus was not God, why then would Jesus be considered a Prophet in Islam?

Either Jesus was exactly who he said He is {God], or he is a liar or delusional. If that’s the case why would He be a prophet in Islam? 🤷
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I think the point is that Muslims believe Jesus doesn’t claim to be God in the Scriptures. I think this was stated earlier in this thread. Some kind of blindness or (at best) ignorance.
 
Jesus doesn’t have to say …

" I am God, worship me"… “I am The Son of God, worship me”…

God said it - and we all know God Is The Most High…

Luke 1.32

31And, behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and shall call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give to him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

No one is the Bible is called " The Son of the Most High "

This title is given to our Lord and Savior, Jesus

.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Jesus is the Living God and also claimed this in the NT. The example left by him completes His resume.

I lose this last testament, Jesus is a prophet thinking. I see this, that had Mohammed indeed believed Jesus was not God, why then would Jesus be considered a Prophet in Islam?

Either Jesus was exactly who he said He is {God], or he is a liar or delusional. If that’s the case why would He be a prophet in Islam? 🤷
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Jesus fulfilled the offices of King, High priest, Sacrificial Victim and Prophet who interceeds on our behalf. He is “IAM” made flesh.

The prophet Jesus that Islam teaches is never Christian. The Quran reveals a heretical form of Arian christian (prophet) Jesus that is never divine, and was never crucified. Islam calls Jesus a prophet because it cannot deny Jesus lived, Jesus performed miracles and signs and was born of a Virgin who walked the earth as a lamb full of peace and truth. Muhammad their founder is greater than Jesus, who never performed miracles nor did Muhammad raise the dead before eyewitnesses.
 
Perhaps Muhammad never actually read the Gospel but only heard of it from the Arians.
Because, why would he otherwise choose some things to believe about Jesus and not others? IMO it’s hard to read the Gospels and not believe in the Divinity of Christ.

I don’t understand how the Muslims read the Gospels, even quote them, but don’t believe
in the Divinity of Jesus, except that Muhammad said that to say that Christ is God is blaspheme, so they believe Muhammad foremostly.

So, for Muhammad himself, I wonder if he only heard of the Gospel rather than read it.
 
bsroufek said:
Perhaps Muhammad never actually read the Gospel but only heard of it from the Arians.
Because, why would he otherwise choose some things to believe about Jesus and not others? IMO it’s hard to read the Gospels and not believe in the Divinity of Christ.

I don’t understand how the Muslims read the Gospels, even quote them, but don’t believe
in the Divinity of Jesus, except that Muhammad said that to say that Christ is God is blaspheme, so they believe Muhammad foremostly.

So, for Muhammad himself, I wonder if he only heard of the Gospel rather than read it.
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Muslims get their Biblical information from sites like:

answeringchristianity.com

Which has no real understanding of the Bible or Christianity in general
 
bsroufek said:
Perhaps Muhammad never actually read the Gospel but only heard of it from the Arians.
Because, why would he otherwise choose some things to believe about Jesus and not others? IMO it’s hard to read the Gospels and not believe in the Divinity of Christ.

I don’t understand how the Muslims read the Gospels, even quote them, but don’t believe
in the Divinity of Jesus, except that Muhammad said that to say that Christ is God is blaspheme, so they believe Muhammad foremostly.

So, for Muhammad himself, I wonder if he only heard of the Gospel rather than read it.
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Muslims reject most of the canonized bible including all of the New Testament. They come along 700 years later. And make the false claim that the Catholic Church distorted the New Testament to fit Christian theology.

Muslims don’t believe in the New Testament, because they believe it was distorted by Christians. Muslims can pick and choose which New Testament scriptures are inspired of God and which ones are not. In other words if they can twist a new testament scripture to fit their theology they claim comes from God. All other’s that refute and reject Islam are not from God.

For example they claim the rider on the white horse of the apocalypse pertains to Islam. And that Jesus was taken up to heaven and taught he was going to send another the Holy Spirit. Islam claims Jesus was talking about Muhammad.

Most of Islam’s christian theology comes from non-canonical books that the Arians wrote or taught from that were rejected by the Catholic Church when she canonized the bible books.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
Muslims reject most of the canonized bible including all of the New Testament. They come along 700 years later. And make the false claim that the Catholic Church distorted the New Testament to fit Christian theology.

Muslims don’t believe in the New Testament, because they believe it was distorted by Christians. Muslims can pick and choose which New Testament scriptures are inspired of God and which ones are not. In other words if they can twist a new testament scripture to fit their theology they claim comes from God. All other’s that refute and reject Islam are not from God.

For example they claim the rider on the white horse of the apocalypse pertains to Islam. And that Jesus was taken up to heaven and taught he was going to send another the Holy Spirit. Islam claims Jesus was talking about Muhammad.

Most of Islam’s christian theology comes from non-canonical books that the Arians wrote or taught from that were rejected by the Catholic Church when she canonized the bible books.
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Thank you very much for that explanation, for without it explaining the Gospel to Muslims
is like beating your head against the wall. They just don’t understand or accept the MEANING behind the verses, but take them to mean something very different.
 
I’ve bookmarked Sahih Bukhari - which I mainly use - and wanted to post this, which I believe is relevant to this topic:

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460:
Code: 
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah’s Apostle said (to the Muslims).

"Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, ‘We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.’ "

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461:
Code: 
Narrated Ubaidullah:
Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest?

You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain.

Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything?

No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

shariahprogram.ca/Hadith/Sahih-Bukhari/092.sbt.html
 
Right in a few case’s, Creation, the fall of man/Adam, Annunciation and aspects of Jesus. But without a documented history preceding the 6th -AD. Seems to me your left with Mohammad and his understanding.

The Creation story and Allah knowing man would fall thus his intention fascinates me also. Sounds like a predestination story I’ve heard. That subtle little twist in the story is something. Allah created man knowing he would fall? The intent is something I’ve been thinking about.
 
bsroufek said:
Thank you very much for that explanation, for without it explaining the Gospel to Muslims
is like beating your head against the wall. They just don’t understand or accept the MEANING behind the verses, but take them to mean something very different.
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You’re right. A prime example is Matt 15: 17-18. Muslims don’t understand the definition of fulfill.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
 
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