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TheSufi
Guest
Well, I’m not Christian, so I don’t have to believe the world is flat.
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expounder
Guest
You see, then you have people, whose love for God is boundless to the extent that they will not draw images of God, in case it falls into the wrong hands of those who seek to belittle him. You don’t think God would favour such an honourable intention?
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tabycat
Guest
I am a Christian and I do not have to believe that the world is flat either!
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TheSufi
Guest
Awesome!!! We finally agree on something. Woo Hoo.I am a Christian and I do not have to believe that the world is flat either!
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LtTony
Guest
- You said "“Visualising an image or drawing one is therefore not allowed”. Which I took to mean a person can not visualize an image in their head, their imagination. Can you or can you not imagine what your wife or kid looks like?
Then we agree.
“3)You use it to glorify God, then someone comes along and degrades the image…do i want to risk degrading God? no”
You’re reaching, scrambling to defend an absurd position. If someone degrades it, then it’s on that person. Someone who creates art to glorify and inspire should not be held accountable for a vandal. You’ve said as much yourself elsewhere.
No. 4 makes absolutely no sense to me. Sorry.
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LtTony
Guest
Other “notable personalities” disagree with Tozer. So what? Plenty of “notable personalities” disagree with Islam. So what?A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy , writes that the Trinity is an “incomprehensible mystery,” and that attempts to understand it “must remain forever futile.” He admits that churches, “without pretending to understand,” have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine. He concludes, “The fact that it [the Trinity] cannot be satisfactorily explained, instead of being against it, is in its favor” (Harper & Row, New York, 1961, pp. 17, 18, 23).
I’m sticking with the opinion of this notable personality; the trinity does not make sense.
I’m not going to bother defining or understanding it because my mind is going to explode soon
Forget the Trinity then. What about the rest of Christ’s message? Does it “not make any sense”?
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expounder
Guest
I don’t know why we wouldn’t be able to visualise kids, your wife, a bird even ^^
This is all about intention; my intention is not to draw an image of God, so it can’t fall into the wrongs of someone who wishes to defame it, is that bad?
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expounder
Guest
This little personality over here agrees with Tozer because everything he has said here makes sense, unlike the trinity which is like a maze with no ending.
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LtTony
Guest
Examples please. It happens, but is not that common.
Do you think the disrespect and disbelief would go away if there were no images?
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TEPO
Guest
But after all the blood sacrifices that were offered to God, we believe that God, in return, sacrificed a part of Himself for us -as an act of pure love… For God so loved His people that He sacrificed His only “Son”.
From this love comes Christianity… It means that, even though we have made mistakes -He does still love us -you and I both.
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expounder
Guest
Rather it would mean that you were not assisting them in disrespect.
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LtTony
Guest
No, not at all. But is also not wrong to paint a picture of a religious nature.You’re right, religious art is all about intention. That’s why common sense says it is OK.
Further, the literalist “graven image” mindset creates all sorts of problems with good real world situations, like textbooks, simple family photos, magazines, etc., etc. Muslims diasgree about what kind of images are allowed or not allowed. They are all over the map. Sorry, but they trip all over themselves trying to justify this and object to that. It all leads to them getting all wrapped up in the legalism of the ting, rather than God. That is far, far worse than someone maybe defacing religious art.
The intent of that commandment is the worship of false Gods, obviously. Not images in general.
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expounder
Guest
Okay i want to conclude this argument because:
An argument with a layman will never end.
I personally can’t claim to know and understand everything so consider me a layman too.
An argument with a layman will never end.
I personally can’t claim to know and understand everything so consider me a layman too.
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Reuben_J
Guest
This has been explained and you perhaps must have read it even from most Christian sources.
Granted that may not make sense to you. But honestly, does it not make sense to you because of Islamic teaching which does not agree with it and your thought is somewhat influenced by that teaching or does it not make sense from a common sense point of view? I understand that somehow we are influenced by the teachings of our religion and we sort of piggybank on them. I am not saying that is wrong though.
I had put it in the very simplest of form and I thought to repeat here.
The price of sin is death. When one commits sin, one has to face the consequence and that is death. This can be expounded but I am keeping it simple.
God sets that rule. If he goes against it, then he is going against his own rule. I get your point though –because of his power, God can just forgive, he just forget the rule. God chooses not to follow that route but he still forgives. So how? The answer, God still has to fulfill his own rule. We call this divine justice which is full of love and mercy.
A thing to note though perhaps irrelevant. Here we have a God who obeys rule, well, eventhough he is God who if he wants to, does not have to. This is very important in moulding the thinking of the adherents of the religion. Would we as Christians when being in power do not have to follow rules? When we look at God as the ideal, we cannot do that.
This is what we call the love of God. In my earlier discussion I mention about the love of God. What is that? Christians’ understanding is that it is about giving for the good of others (that we love).
God did that (giving). He does not have to as you rightly say but he did anyway because of his love. He gives his life for the ones he loves and there is no cheating there (of the rule) on his part.
It makes perfect sense. Even humans can understand. A father would give his life for the sake of his children because of his love for them. And so is God.
If we talk about a game, a powerful father can cheat because he makes the rule but a righteous father who wants his children to follow his example, would not.
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coachkfan1
Guest
This is the heart of the whole matter between Christians and Muslims.
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LtTony
Guest
Makes sense to me. No that difficult actually. But set it aside for the moment. Jesus is much more important that the Trinity.
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Reuben_J
Guest
But you know this does not work. You cannot force belief. Besides God gives us freewill. We decide what we do and we are accountable for our decision.
It is good if it is man who decrees that images should not be made because of their love of God. But God will not decree as such simply because he has given us freewill. Our love for him would be meaningless if it is being forced and God does not want that kind of love.
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TEPO
Guest
It’s not really that hard to understand -that is if you’re willing to try…
…take the “earth” for example. One person argues that its a planet and nothing more or less than a planet and that there is nothing else to know.
Another person argues that the earth is indeed a planet, but is made up of different “parts” consisting of matter, magnetic poles and H2O…
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LtTony
Guest
I would not be assisting them at all.
Talk about not making sense.
That’s like saying the person who invented steel is to blame for all the deaths steel weapons have caused.
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expounder
Guest
No really i did the say the argument was never going to end.
I could say hypothetically speaking that had there been no steel there would have been no deaths by weapons of steel. But just ignore i said that, because there is no purpose in carrying on this argument, it will serve neither i or you because it is in direct conflict with both of our beliefs, something which we will not be giving into so easily.
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