Muhammad rejected Christianity/Jesus

[TEPO]

It’s not really that hard to understand -that is if you’re willing to try…

…take the “earth” for example. One person argues that its a planet and nothing more or less than a planet and that there is nothing else to know.

Another person argues that the earth is indeed a planet, but is made up of different “parts” consisting of matter, magnetic poles and H2O…

The first person then argues that he wasn’t taught that and that a planet doesn’t even need any of these things to be a planet -well actually it just needs one thing, which is matter.

IOW, God is only the Father and water and magnetic poles are actually 2 totally different (false) planets.

 

[TEPO]

…I hope that asking Muslims to think that way wasn’t ‘sinful’ according to Islamic teaching.

…sort of like a mentally graven image. . If so, please excuse my ignorance.

 

[kimg901]

This little personality over here agrees with Tozer because everything he has said here makes sense, unlike the trinity which is like a maze with no ending.

How do you figure the Trinity is like an unending maze?

 

[TEPO]

I’m curious how Muslims view Allah. Like a man-figure or an energy or as light as space in general as a pattern of logic.? What is Allah?

What do Muslims envision when they worship? Surely something must be envisioned, right?

 

[TEPO]

Fine then, I’ll teach myself out loud.

I just read this: “The unique usage of Allah as a personal name of God is a reflection of Islam’s emphasis on the purity of the belief in God which is the essence of the message of all God’s messengers. Because of this, Islam considers associating any deity or personality with God as a deadly sin which God will never forgive, despite the fact He may forgive all other sins.”
allah.org/

…I guess this would explain the uncomfortable silence…

But I’m still not understanding how Muslims worship Allah, when Allah is not to be worshipped as a Allah with a personality… So that means Muslims are thinking about themselves when they worship, and hoping that Allah will be on their side in their dealings -since there is no personality to follow? Or is Muhammed (PBUH) the image?

I still don’t understand.

…Perhaps when Muslims pray, they envision the Arabic word for Allah as a neon light behind closed eyelids? If that’s what it is then thats okay -I just want to know…

 

[TEPO]

Perhaps when Muslims go to the Temple they are thinking about their wrongdoings and apologizing to Allah as they worship? Perhaps they’re asking Allah to forgive all non-Muslims, or asking for something else? Or is worship based on spreading Islam?

…I honestly just really don’t know.

 

[MartinJordan]

Perhaps when Muslims go to the Temple they are thinking about their wrongdoings and apologizing to Allah as they worship? Perhaps they’re asking Allah to forgive all non-Muslims, or asking for something else? Or is worship based on spreading Islam?

…I honestly just really don’t know.

You are definitely fuzzy about Muslim beliefs when you say “Temple”.

MJ

 

[famdigy]

wrong…by a mile His uncle abu Talib was a pagan and ,despite being Muhammad’s most loyal supporter, he rejected Islam because he was the head of a tribe and was worried about what other members of the tribe would say if he left the religion of his forefathers.

The faith of Abu Talib is disputed. Some background for everyone else. Abu Talib is the Prophet’s uncle and Imam Ali’s father. We believe the companions out of their hatred and jealousy of Imam Ali (as) falsely accused his father Abu Talib of being a pagan and rejector of Islam.

It’s narrated that Imam Sadiq (as) Muhammad’s (p) great grandson asked his companion “Oh Yunus, what do the people say about Abu Talib?”, Yunus replied, “they say he would be standing in shallow water in hell wearing shoes made out of fire causing his head to boil”, the imam answered “The enemies of God have lied. Indeed Abu Talib is in the company of the prophets, saints, martyrs, and righteous and those are the best companions” translated from Mustadrak al-bihar vol.6 p.558.

There are many more hadiths like this one pointing to Abu Talib’s Islam and faith. The reason Abu Talib did not publicly announce his faith was so that he could continue to help and assist Muhammad (p) in the early years of Islam while living among the hostile pagans.

What is interesting is that the sunnis acknowledge that the Ahlul-bayt (family of the prophet) always maintained Abu Talib was a muslim. The famous sunni historian Ibn Al-athir says “Ahlul-bayt (family of the prophet) claim that Abu Talib died a muslim” translated from Jami’ al-osool vol. 12 page 109. Note he doesn’t say this is a Shia claim.

There are also other narrations in the Sunni hadiths that indicate Abu Talib died a muslim also some of their reasoning as to why they they claim Abu Talib died a pagan backfires on them. I can get into those later if you like.

 

[famdigy]

…Perhaps when Muslims pray, they envision the Arabic word for Allah as a neon light behind closed eyelids? If that’s what it is then thats okay -I just want to know…

Hi TEPO,

This is a quote from the opening sermon of Imam Ali (as) in his book the peak of eloquence. The second paragraph might help.

"The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognizes His like, and who recognizes His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognizes parts for Him; and who recognizes parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence."

 

[TEPO]

Hi TEPO,

This is a quote from the opening sermon of Imam Ali (as) in his book the peak of eloquence. The second paragraph might help.

"The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognizes His like, and who recognizes His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognizes parts for Him; and who recognizes parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence."

Thank you.

 

[TEPO]

You are definitely fuzzy about Muslim beliefs when you say “Temple”.

MJ

For sure. I know very little about it.

 

[MartinJordan]

For sure. I know very little about it.

It’s definitely good to know more about other faiths. That said it is better to know our Faith as much as possible so that we don’t endanger Catholic Truths that have existed for 2000 years.

MJ

 

[TEPO]

It’s definitely good to know more about other faiths. That said it is better to know our Faith as much as possible so that we don’t endanger Catholic Truths that have existed for 2000 years.

MJ

I have problems with blending thoughts though so I typically like to stick with one thing which is Catholicism. I know quite a lot about it. I know much less about Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy though. Most posters of other faiths don’t like to give me direct answers so I’m usually at a loss. Admittedly, I also don’t understand the mindset of many of the Eastern Catholics whom I’ve come in contact with -they seem more like Orthodox to me.

EDIT: Most of the Orthodox posters here are very good at answering questions though.

 

[MartinJordan]

I have problems with blending thoughts though so I typically like to stick with one thing which is Catholicism. I know quite a lot about it. I know much less about Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy though. Most posters of other faiths don’t like to give me direct answers so I’m usually at a loss. Admittedly, I also don’t understand the mindset of many of the Eastern Catholics whom I’ve come in contact with -they seem more like Orthodox to me.

EDIT: Most of the Orthodox posters here are very good at answering questions though.

I understand, my brother in Christ.

Wish you luck to get answers you are looking for.

MJ

 

[TheSufi]

This has been explained and you perhaps must have read it even from most Christian sources.

Granted that may not make sense to you. But honestly, does it not make sense to you because of Islamic teaching which does not agree with it and your thought is somewhat influenced by that teaching or does it not make sense from a common sense point of view? I understand that somehow we are influenced by the teachings of our religion and we sort of piggybank on them. I am not saying that is wrong though.

.

It doesn’t make common sense. After thinking about it last night. I guess it is related to the Jewish concept of sacrificing animals to plea for God’s forgiveness. But the idea that God can die, is a type of insanity. Because God cannot die. So God cannot really be sacrificed. It seems that it is more of a symbolic jester than a reality, because God cannot die.

I mean, even when I ponder on the idea of the Word of God, it is not really a Son of God, it is God, another symbolic notion, that God gave his son. Because the Word of God is 100% God, which means, it has no beginning nor end, it cannot be born because to be born would indicate, it has a beginning. Just as the Spirit of God is 100% God it to has no beginning nor end.

 

[TheSufi]

I’m curious how Muslims view Allah. Like a man-figure or an energy or as light as space in general as a pattern of logic.? What is Allah?

What do Muslims envision when they worship? Surely something must be envisioned, right?

We don’t visualize God. We don’t have an anthropomorphic view of God. We are taught to worship God as though we see Him, but not with eyesight (ie the eyes) but with spiritual insight (the heart and spirit). And if you cannot do that, know that He sees you. (Refer to the hadith of Jibril). This is prophetically known as Ihsan, sometimes called Tasawwuf, which you may know as Sufism.

I tend to focus on His presences, when I pray. (God is closer to man than his jugular vein) I focus with my heart and my spirit on Him. Sometimes I envision His light encompassing me, which encompasses me with His love, His mercy, His support, His assistance, His guidance etc. I try to quiet the thoughts. It is more feelings, it is more of a knowingness, rather than thinking…

Man is composed of a body, mind, and a spirit.

Body - relates of Fiqh, Islamic Law, what we physically do.
Mind - relates to Aqida, Islamic Belief, How we think about God and religion.
Spirit - relates to Sufism, Islamic Spirituality, How we inwardly worship and communicate with God. Its seat is the heart. One of the early Muslims said, “Knowledge is not what is narrated but a light that God places in the heart.”

Prophet Muhammad said, “Beware of the believer with spiritual insight for he sees with the light of God.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

It doesn’t make common sense. After thinking about it last night. I guess it is related to the Jewish concept of sacrificing animals to plea for God’s forgiveness. But the idea that God can die, is a type of insanity. Because God cannot die. So God cannot really be sacrificed. It seems that it is more of a symbolic jester than a reality, because God cannot die…

Right, your looking for what ontological sense the Father and the Son are divided in the person of Jesus Christ. Also if you believe in eternal life, there is no end of existence. So God never ceased to exist

mean, even when I ponder on the idea of the Word of God, it is not really a Son of God, it is God, another symbolic notion, that God gave his son. Because the Word of God is 100% God, which means, it has no beginning nor end, it cannot be born because to be born would indicate, it has a beginning. Just as the Spirit of God is 100% God it to has no beginning nor end.

The Word of God is God, completely, The remainder of your paragraph places God within the framework of time. There is no time God is subjected to. All three are One Essence,One God, identified by three persons of the Trinity. Essence remains the same, one in three, three in one.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We don’t visualize God. We don’t have an anthropomorphic view of God. We are taught to worship God as though we see Him, but not with eyesight (ie the eyes) but with spiritual insight (the heart and spirit). And if you cannot do that, know that He sees you. (Refer to the hadith of Jibril). This is prophetically known as Ihsan, sometimes called Tasawwuf, which you may know as Sufism.

I tend to focus on His presences, when I pray. (God is closer to man than his jugular vein) I focus with my heart and my spirit on Him. Sometimes I envision His light encompassing me, which encompasses me with His love, His mercy, His support, His assistance, His guidance etc. I try to quiet the thoughts. It is more feelings, it is more of a knowingness, rather than thinking…

Man is composed of a body, mind, and a spirit.

Body - relates of Fiqh, Islamic Law, what we physically do.
Mind - relates to Aqida, Islamic Belief, How we think about God and religion.
Spirit - relates to Sufism, Islamic Spirituality, How we inwardly worship and communicate with God. Its seat is the heart. One of the early Muslims said, “Knowledge is not what is narrated but a light that God places in the heart.”

Prophet Muhammad said, “Beware of the believer with spiritual insight for he sees with the light of God.”

When you say anthropomorphic, you are understanding by inverted logic. God being almighty communicates to man by what man is capable of understanding. Thus your first paragraph is right in your understanding. Nevertheless God is and has communicated to man. This is the basis of the Trinity in how man came to understand the presence of God.

Knowing God exists is in fact written in every heart. Coming into a personal relationship to what is written your heart is a bit different. Or the opposite would be further separation of Grace.

You believe in Adam and Eve and original sin from what I understand? What happened in this situation from your understanding?

 

[jakasaki]

God made a NEW covenant with his people through Jesus, not like the Old Covenant.

Much of Muhammad’s teachings seem to borrow from the OT, but even God says those
laws weren’t good for them (the Jews).

“The days are coming,” declares the LORD, "when I will make a** new covenant**
with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah
Jer: 31.31

“But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on
that day,” says the LORD
Jer: 31.33

"This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the LORD:
Hebrews 10.16

 

[Reuben_J]

It doesn’t make common sense. After thinking about it last night.
Fair enough. I asked why it does not make common sense not whether it is true or not. Common sense is something we can understand through common rationalization by our simple natural capability of understanding and intellect. If we cannot grasp it in that manner then it does not make common.

I feel the concept of the Trinity is simple enough to be understood in simple term. And I thought it makes sense; not something that is difficult to understand. Looking at how you summarize the second person of the Trinity I think you have misunderstood it. I am not forcing the idea on you but hopefully you are not objecting to something that we do not believe too.

I guess it is related to the Jewish concept of sacrificing animals to plea for God’s forgiveness.

You seem to have an aversion about it being a Jewish concept. However, that is the reality of Christian belief and to some extent Islamic too because our root came from the old Jewish experience, the Old Testament of the Bible. Thus we share a lot in common on the earlier belief and practice.

The idea of animal sacrifice is denied by the Jews if it is seen as purely an exchange for forgiveness and they are right in that. That’s not what God wants but a humble heart of repentance. Yet, sacrificing of animal is being practiced in the temple as a form of ritual worship. Islam though not an exact replica does understand sacrificing of animal to some extent in the Qurban.

But the idea that God can die, is a type of insanity. Because God cannot die. So God cannot really be sacrificed. It seems that it is more of a symbolic jester than a reality, because God cannot die.

We would agree with you that it is really nonsense to say that God can die. There is nowhere in Christianity that says God dies too.

What Muslims refuse to understand is that Jesus is both God and man, true God and man. He is human in all ways except sin. It baffles me when Muslims refuse to admit Christian belief on this. I guess if they do, it seems to them that this idea is correct after all. Thus here I am not asking whether the idea is correct or not but whether the concept as believed by the Christians makes sense. Thus here I appeal to common sense.

So here is the thing. God did not die. Jesus as a man died. He rose again after three days. So he was alive after all.

I mean, even when I ponder on the idea of the Word of God, it is not really a Son of God, it is God, another symbolic notion, that God gave his son. Because the Word of God is 100% God, which means, it has no beginning nor end, it cannot be born because to be born would indicate, it has a beginning.

The theology about the Word of God is quite difficult. I avoid discussing this with non-Christian simply because I do not want them to confuse any further. It is hard enough for them to accept Jesus as true man and true God.

The idea that Jesus can be understood as the word is to demonstrate that he was there from the beginning. The incarnation was only about 2000 years ago where he became man. As man, he is born of a woman, lived and died. As God he has no beginning and no end. Muslims reject about being begotten. As you see, he would not be a man if he is not born.

Just as the Spirit of God is 100% God it to has no beginning nor end.

Exactly. And that is what the second person of the Trinity is.