Muhammad was really a Christian...

[dennisknapp]

It was his followers that later changed and corrupted his true message into what Islam is today.

Ok, this is not true, but this is the argument most Muslims give as to why Christianity is not true.

Instead of looking at the historical record and top rate scholarship, they simply proclaim Christ’s message false and corrupt. They provide no evidence, no proof, nothing… It just is.

In logic this is know as the genetic fallacy, or the fallacy of origins. Here are some examples,

“The current Chancellor of Germany was in the Hitler Youth at age 3. With that sort of background, his so called ‘reform’ plan must be a facist program.”

“I was brought up to believe in God, and my parents told me God exists, so He must.”

“Sure, the media claims that Senator Bedfellow was taking kickbacks. But we all know about the media’s credibility, don’t we.”

Or another one:

“Islam teaches that Christianity is false because Christ’s followers corrupted his true message, therefore Christianity is false.”–this is also circular reasoning.

Peace

 

[meedo]

Umm, i think this is just oversimplification. Please remember that in the history of church itself there was Arius who didnt believe in any of the trinity stuff. The trinity was CHOSEN at teh counsel of Nicea about 300 years after Jesus. The choice was by MEN who came hundreds fo years after Jesus and the choice was under political influence . Jesus never proclaimed divinity and never proclaimed he is God and it really astonishes people how his references to be the son of God taken literally !!! TThis is a big mistake that Christians do and so did some of the jews at the time. true followers and deciples of Jesus never called him GOD !!! They called him Lord as in Master. There were many sons of God on the bible and there were many sons of man also which Jesus is also one of them by his own words.

I mean , to look into it objectively there is NOTHING that proves the Current christian creed even if we only look at the bible .

There is not single one verse in which Jesus proclaim he is a part of a trinity or God or devine or ask any body to worship him .

And then comes Paul !!! a staunch enemy that suddenly turned friend!!! God only knows what this man was about !!

I dont think there is a true creed that is suposed to be from God that can have around it all sorts of Mysteries and inconsistencies and suspicions. No wonder many people never ever udnerstand the trinity and thus never ever understand the creed on which their whole faith is based upon!!!

Some christians think muclims doesnt knwo much about christyianity .

Yes to an extent that is true . But the problem is that the very basic creed of christianity itself doesnt make sense to muslims so they feel they shouldnt go further.

I once asked myself a question? what does christianity offer me that Islam doesnt ? I honeslty didnt find any. Above that , islam is just plain simple and makes sense! Nearly same as Judaism ! . But as a muslim ofcourse i dont fall for the misconceptions about Islam . Many peopel accuse islam that its works is the one who gets people into heaven and stuff and as a knowledgable muslim i knwo that isnt true .

I am sorry of i upset any one i really wish i dont . But i mean i am really thinking and writing what i think . many peopel atack my faith which many insults at least i am not insulting here but merely questioning politely .

Thank you

Peace

 

[dennisknapp]

meedo:

Umm, i think this is just oversimplification. Please remember that in the history of church itself there was Arius who didnt believe in any of the trinity stuff. The trinity was CHOSEN at teh counsel of Nicea about 300 years after Jesus. The choice was by MEN who came hundreds fo years after Jesus and the choice was under political influence . Jesus never proclaimed divinity and never proclaimed he is God and it really astonishes people how his references to be the son of God taken literally !!! TThis is a big mistake that Christians do and so did some of the jews at the time. true followers and deciples of Jesus never called him GOD !!! They called him Lord as in Master. There were many sons of God on the bible and there were many sons of man also which Jesus is also one of them by his own words.

I mean , to look into it objectively there is NOTHING that proves the Current christian creed even if we only look at the bible .

There is not single one verse in which Jesus proclaim he is a part of a trinity or God or devine or ask any body to worship him .

And then comes Paul !!! a staunch enemy that suddenly turned friend!!! God only knows what this man was about !!

I dont think there is a true creed that is suposed to be from God that can have around it all sorts of Mysteries and inconsistencies and suspicions. No wonder many people never ever udnerstand the trinity and thus never ever understand the creed on which their whole faith is based upon!!!

Some christians think muclims doesnt knwo much about christyianity .

Yes to an extent that is true . But the problem is that the very basic creed of christianity itself doesnt make sense to muslims so they feel they shouldnt go further.

I once asked myself a question? what does christianity offer me that Islam doesnt ? I honeslty didnt find any. Above that , islam is just plain simple and makes sense! Nearly same as Judaism ! . But as a muslim ofcourse i dont fall for the misconceptions about Islam . Many peopel accuse islam that its works is the one who gets people into heaven and stuff and as a knowledgable muslim i knwo that isnt true .

I am sorry of i upset any one i really wish i dont . But i mean i am really thinking and writing what i think . many peopel atack my faith which many insults at least i am not insulting here but merely questioning politely .

Thank you

Peace

Where do you think Christians got there ideas about Jesus and God? Do you think the New Testament is corrupt?

Peace

 

[Beebs]

meedo:

TThis is a big mistake that Christians do and so did some of the jews at the time. true followers and deciples of Jesus never called him GOD !!!

:tsktsk: John 20:24:28
24
Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25
So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26
Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”
27
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.”
28
Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

I don’t see Jesus correcting Thomas that he is not God.

Ok bible is not enough how about this…

Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor around 112 AD:

“[The Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food–but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

or this
The Alexamenos Graffito

see
faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/alex_graffito.htm

The graffito shown below is from first century (AD) Rome. The original piece is housed at the Palatine Antiquarium.

The significance of this graffito is the portrayal (or caricature) of early Christianity by the average Roman. (This has implications for both NT books which are related to Rome: Mark and Hebrews.) It obviously mocks a Christian, suggesting that his worship is ill-founded. The human figure with the *** head on the cross is presumably Jesus, which may represent the old calumny against Jews that they worshipped an ***. If early Christianity was popularly perceived as a variant of Judaism, this association is understandable when associated with the crucifixion.

The Greek text inscribed here reads as follows:

ALE
XAMENOS
SEBETE
QEON
(using Galilee font)
ΑΛΕ
ΞΑΜΕΝΟΣ
ΣΕΒΕΤΕ
ΘΕΟΝ
(Unicode)
ALE
XAMENOS
SEBETE
THEON
(transliterated)

This is translated: “Alexamenos, worship God.”

There are many other cases.

See we don’t have to rely only on the bible. Oh yea these independent sources were only about 100 AD

Not 600 AD according to your source.

I pray that the Holy Sprit will open your heart and mind to the truth.

Beebs

 

[meedo]

Well, it is my belief that God wants us to be Guided to him.

In this attempt he sends us messengers . These messengers say thing and educate people about God.

I dont know. But i dont think ( regarding the matter bieng so grave as to decide salvation and proper belief) That The messenger would not utter the article of faith for the whole followers to follow him .

I mean I dont know any part of the Bible where Jesus Profess the trinity or to demand people worship him or to deny he is a normal Human .

Yes he is born as a miracle but So is Adam!! I mean miracles are for US not for God ! God can do nything including giving the ability to prophets top raise the dead and split the sea and heal the wounded and multiply the food.

Words such as Lord and master doesnt mean divinity it means bieng elite in your people or your group and bieng governer over them . I mean in Egypt we call the husband the Lord of the family . In Europe there are peopel who were called Lord . But did any one call Jesus God ?

Never.

never even any one even professed that he is part of a trinity before him!!! There is a man came to call him good and he even corrected him , now we should take him as God !?

Also another thing is that the famous verse of " No one shall come to God but through me "

Muslims totally agree with that !! I mean this is the case with all the prophets not just Jesus. God doesnt only demand faith he demand obedience and dicipline.

Satan believed in God . He knew God is there but his sin that threw him into hell was his false pride that he manifested infront of God . He Believed in God but he didnt have the proper WAY to believe and deal with God .

and that is why Jesus stresses that not any one would just pop with some idea of him and believe in God his own terms.

In short what i want to say is that faith shouldnt be in teh form of riddles and connecting far away dots . This is an eternal damnation or eternal salvation issue!!! at least the son of God himself would profess the trinity or that he is part of God or that they are 3 in one EXPLICITLY and dont leave couple of hunderd MEN battle at teh councel of Nicea of what and who is God !!

This is only a small but important part of why muslim think the current bible is corrupted .

Peace

 

[Booklover]

meedo:

Well, it is my belief that God wants us to be Guided to him.

I mean I dont know any part of the Bible where Jesus Profess the trinity or to demand people worship him or to deny he is a normal Human .

Peace

Just before Jesus’ ascension into heaven, he told his Apostles to: Go and make disciples of all the nations and baptize them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit!

 

[meedo]

Yes i understand what you mean . But simply the man was saying My Lord and My God doesnt mean he is refering To Jesus .

If i see a miracle in front of my eyes i will definiltly excial " Oh God or Oh My god" It doesnt mean that i call the miracle to be my God.

Let us have a simpler and more **direct ** verse in the bible in trhe same page actually in the words of Jesus Himself

Lets take John 20 (16-17)

"17
Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me, 10 for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to **my Father ** and your Father, to **my God ** and your God.’”

Let me ask you honestly . Does this verse uttered by Jesus need any further explanation? I mean the situation even didnt need him to assert how equal teh father is to him and them and how equal God is to him and them.

I dont know , i just feel that if this is God then he is doing some Ultra ridle!!
“”

Peace

 

[meedo]

Booklover,

Lets take it as authentic , what does it refer to ?

I mean what Jesus mean by this in his own words?

IS this verse more clear or the one i just posted above?

I am not really into much of debates i just want to see from the bible itself which is clearer in Jesus own words !

Is it the trinity and he is devine and should be worshipped of that he is the son of God and some times else the son of man like all his deciples were the soins of God and also teh sons of men .?

In his own words he said that . and left !!!

i am interested in your responses

thank you

 

[JimG]

No one refers to Jesus as God?

The Apostle John, in his own gospel, referring to Jesus as the Word, writes:

In the beginning was the Word,
And the Word was with God,
And the Word was God.

That seems pretty explicit, and John knew Jesus personally.
He calls Jesus the Word because He is the perfect expression of God the Father speaking His own essence.

Now, you think that Jesus should just have recited doctrine explicitly, and perhaps written it all down himself in a simple form, connecting all the dots.

But that is your preference, not His. If He chose to reveal himself gradually, that is his option, and there are plenty of reasons for it, one of them being that first century messianic Jews, like you, were not expecting God to send his only begotten Son to take on human flesh to become the Messiah. It was a truth that could only be encompassed gradually through experience.

And do you really think that the Council of Nicea could just change doctrine? Come out with something that people had not already believed for centuries? Of course not. But they could make a clearer explanation of existing beliefs. Which they did.

 

[JimG]

Jesus said:

“I solemnly assure you: Before Abraham was, I AM.”

His hearers took that as a claim of equality with God. Do you think they were mistaken? And if they were, why did Jesus not correct their mistaken impression?

 

[meedo]

““No one refers to Jesus as God?””

The Apostle John, in his own gospel, referring to Jesus as the Word, writes:

In the beginning was the Word,
And the Word was with God,
And the Word was God.

That seems pretty explicit, and John knew Jesus personally.
He calls Jesus the Word because He is the perfect expression of God the Father speaking His own essence."

Well excuse me but for me as a lay man this doesnt refer to jesus at all and besides this a bit conflicts with the Tanach in Genesis first verses right ? Also this doesnt really manifests Jesus divinity or trinity. Muslims believe that Jesus was teh word of God but not as christians do . He is teh word of God because he was created s(name removed by moderator)ly by a word. “BE” That is in his birth . Other than that he is a nobe Prophet and a role model for all of us .

"Now, you think that Jesus should just have recited doctrine explicitly, and perhaps written it all down himself in a simple form, connecting all the dots. "

Just that he shouldnt have left 1000 men 300 years later in dispute and confusion . Personally i guess he did it . But people changed it for may be sincere but not correct ways . Many peole were led astray in that way sadly. Its actually Numerous times that that happened.

""But that is your preference, not His. If He chose to reveal himself gradually, that is his option, and there are plenty of reasons for it, one of them being that first century messianic Jews, like you, were not expecting God to send his only begotten Son to take on human flesh to become the Messiah. It was a truth that could only be encompassed gradually through experience. “”

Well Jews didnt expect to have someone to split the sea for them either , may be they never saw in their scriptures something to say anything that has a relation to ONLY begotten son and he is not originally in Human flesh but he later took it for the reason of dying on a cross. As i remember i think tere is a verse in the Torah that curse whomever is on the cross!!!

""And do you really think that the Council of Nicea could just change doctrine? Come out with something that people had not already believed for centuries? Of course not. But they could make a clearer explanation of existing beliefs. Which they did. “”

This is the one thing that history proved to be always happening !!! Does any body ever Just change doctrine?!!! NO he always all of a sudden find that he found the truth or that people didnt stress enough imortance on this or that . Have you ever in your life met a person who admitted that he follows a CHANGED doctrine?!!

The road to hell is furnished with good intentions. Thats why you have sects and stuff. The stroy of Arius is an example. Men chose between different bibles which are to take and which to reject and this affected the core of the faith . Till this day you have a difference of who is God between teh Orthodox Church and the Catholic church . One of them is wrong !!! This is about who is God and not somthing marginal!!

I am just trying to get it from Jesus Mouth , am i asking somthing strange?

I want a quote where Jesus tells about who he is and who God is and what is the relation between them .

The original belief of Judaism is that there is God and everything besides him are creations. If Jesus came to add somthing new then he has to really make alot of effort and not leave mysteries behind?!

and btw david was also a begotten son of God so Jesus isnt the Only . Its in the OT

Thank you .

Jesus said:

“I solemnly assure you: Before Abraham was, I AM.”

His hearers took that as a claim of equality with God. Do you think they were mistaken? And if they were, why did Jesus not correct their mistaken impression?

 

[r.gonzales]

dennisknapp:

Instead of looking at the historical record and top rate scholarship, they simply proclaim Christ’s message false and corrupt. They provide no evidence, no proof, nothing… It just is.

no evidence? perhaps none that you are aware of or are willing to accept.

the following is a pdf article compiled by a couple of converts to islam from the UK made up of statements from christian scholars regarding the early followers of christ from before the nicean creed was formulated. before nicea.

 

[exoflare]

The PDF file also makes the erroneous assumption that all Christian doctrine is found in the Bible. Someone please tell them the church has always been established as the final authority on doctrine and not a static text.

And just what is this?

we have quoted from their book that which
is attested to by historical evidence.
More importantly, Allaah mentions in the Qur’aan
They follow only conjecture and what their souls desire – even though
there has already come down to them guidance from their Lord
{an-Najm (53): 23}

"historical evidence…" but then “more importantly, Allah mentions in the Quran…”

So historical evidence is nice if you think you can find some, but more importantly it must conform to the Quran? I think they’ve unwittingly made their priorities pretty clear.

 

[meedo]

Well they didnt twist any historical evidence. They just say that even though they believe in Historical evidence but for them teh Quran is always authoritative. They dont mean to twist it to conform with the Quran . These hystorical evidence are there by themselves and all teh sources quoted are christain sources and well documented and referenced.

Peace

 

[hawk]

r.gonzales:

no evidence? perhaps none that you are aware of or are willing to accept.

the following is a pdf article compiled by a couple of converts to islam from the UK made up of statements from christian scholars regarding the early followers of christ from before the nicean creed was formulated. before nicea.

Except that it was Jesus Himself, who claimed that He came specifically to die for the sins of many!

The heresies concerning the death of Christ, were simply because many people felt that it was improper for Him to die as God.

Hence the monophysites.

This book is simply a rehash of all the ideas proposed by islam apologists on the net.

 

[r.gonzales]

hawk:

Except that it was Jesus Himself, who claimed that He came specifically to die for the sins of many!

perhaps according to the 380 men that canonized your creed at the nicean council… not according to the word of Allah.

 

[Ghosty]

perhaps according to the 380 men that canonized your creed at the nicean council… not according to the word of Allah.

The statement that Jesus was God comes from long before the Council of Nicea. As others have shown it is right in Scripture. The heretics that Nicea addressed were not taking Scripture seriously, which is why a Council was held against them. Using their words gives you no support whatsoever, espescially in the face of John 1.

Meedo:

You say a layman can’t determine who the Word in question is, but the same chapter says this:

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ "

And then:

29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’

This is from the Gospel of John, who was a personal friend of Jesus and an Apostle, who personally taught Polycarp all he knew, and Polycarp personally taught Irenaeus, who’s writings have been preserved since the second century. You can only ignore Jesus being God if you choose to ignore the people who personally knew him, people who are independantly attested to by history and records.

That link “Before Nicea” is faulty from the start, and the support of “New Testament” scholars is laughable. They even use resources from Nag Hammadi and The Jesus Seminar. If you were familiar with those things, you wouldn’t even bother looking at that work as anything other than a comedy of errors.

Honestly, I think it’s rather sad that such resources would be brought up considering how poor they are. The beliefs of the Nag Hammadi compilers, for example, were shot down in the second century in “Against Heresies”. They were proven wrong over 1800 years ago, and only recently have people been going back to them, yet those same people haven’t been reading the work that proved them wrong in the first place. Such forgeries would be funny if modern people’s reliance on them wasn’t so very pitiful

 

[Beebs]

"“No one refers to Jesus as God?”"

lets see I have give you three examples, one from John 20:24:28 in which Thomas answered and said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God! AGAIN Jesus does not correct this “blasphemy” if he is not God.
You ignore this by saying Thomas is saying “oh my God” upon seeing a miricle that my friend is a very poor excuse.

No, I am sorry, of course how could you understand, as it is translated today. Here is the actual greek with the word for word translation. Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, “The Lord of me and the God of me!”) That is not quite like saying “oh my God.” I am very happy to help clear up your confusion.

Also, why have you not addressed my non biblical sources?

Evidently the roman pagans understood that the Christian worshipped Jesus as God. So your “NO ONE” claim is false.

I will once again I pray that the Holy Sprit will open your heart and mind to the truth.

Beebs

 

[exoflare]

meedo:

These hystorical evidence are there by themselves and all teh sources quoted are christain sources and well documented and referenced.

Peace

You say they’re Christian sources, but you forget there’s a such thing as heretics. The article is ridiculous because it only looks for the mere existence of certain religious opinions by anybody at all during those times with no consideration of anything else (except whether those opinions agree with the Quran, maybe). And of course the only opinions existing at the time that the article cherrypicks, I mean, quotes are the ones that appear to agree with some Islamic teaching. Geez, go fig. Just imagine if the sayings/acts of anyone who ever called themself Muslim were used to evaluate Islam…?

 

[r.gonzales]

Ghosty:

This is from the Gospel of John, who was a personal friend of Jesus and an Apostle, who personally taught Polycarp all he knew, and Polycarp personally taught Irenaeus, who’s writings have been preserved since the second century. You can only ignore Jesus being God if you choose to ignore the people who personally knew him, people who are independantly attested to by history and records.

according to critical study, the authorship of this gospel (as well as the other 3) is questionable and under debate. (read: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Johannine_works). so given this fact, ignoring these “eye-witness” accounts doesn’t necessitate that we ignore the testimonies of jesus’ companions, especially if these doubts regarding the authors’ identities are substantiated. to quote what exoflare mentioned in another thread some time ago:

exoflare:

It is not guaranteed the identity of the authors. Only that those books were divinely inspired.

Ghosty:

The statement that Jesus was God comes from long before the Council of Nicea. As others have shown it is right in Scripture. The heretics that Nicea addressed were not taking Scripture seriously, which is why a Council was held against them. Using their words gives you no support whatsoever, espescially in the face of John 1.

deemed as heretics because they opposed the innovated beliefs of the constantian nicean council? the measure of truth is the revelation that Allah sent his prophets and messengers with, and the fact of the matter is that that creed contains things which were not revealed by Allah in any book, as well as things that oppose sound reason. the canonization of the bible and the decision of which books were to be included and which books were to be deemed as inauthentic or heretic rested on the decision of men, men who lived a fair amount of time after jesus’ time.

abul-'abbaas ahmad ibn taimiyyah, a muslim scholar who lived roughly 700 years ago wrote a reply to some claims made by the christians of his time. this reply of his contains some very interesting points pertaining to some of the issues that have been raised here. a translation of this reply can be read at these links (all in pdf format):
the correct reply to the one who changed the messiah’s religion: part 1
the correct reply to the one who changed the messiah’s religion: part 2
the correct reply to the one who changed the messiah’s religion: part 3