Muhammad.

[3rm]

I read how Muhammad came to get the first revelations and i must say the story is quite convincing. Before his first revelation, he was a merchant known as being trusthworthy, truthful, he even acquired a nickname for his trusthworthiness(al-Amin).
Muhammad started to spent many hours alone, speculating over the aspects of creation. He was concerned with the discrimination against women and others in Arabia, about the social unrest, fighting of tribes, and injustice. He then after spending hours praying and thinking, supposedly received his first revelations. He then preached and gained some followers.

He then escaped to Medina and became a totally different person. It seems that power corrupted him somehow.

What do you think of him?

 

[jakasaki]

For the love of God ~

Why do you start these Islamic threads and never participate in them…???

I read how Muhammad came to get the first revelations and i must say the story is quite convincing.

Convincing how…??

It is claimed that Gabriel appeared to him in the cave and squeezed Mohammad hard 3 times and asked to read.

Is that the Gabriel you know from the Bible…???

Didn’t the angels say to all they appeared to…

“Fear not…”"

But that did not happened to Mohammad… the angel in the cave did not say… “fear not…” instead squeezed Mohammad to a freight state…

Before his first revelation, he was a merchant known as being trusthworthy, truthful, he even acquired a nickname for his trusthworthiness(al-Amin).

Do you even know anything about from the day Mohammad was born, his jobs as a shepherd, then going on trading merchant trips with his uncle where he learned the trade…

Do you know anything about his meeting and marriage of his first wife…???

He was concerned with the discrimination against women and others in Arabia,

The above quote cracks me up every time…!!!

He had no concern regarding women, in fact if you read the Quran & Hadiths they claim quite a bit of negativity on women based on Mohammads words.

Someone in another thread (Apologetics) you started regarding converting to Islam and asked you how old are you and you did not respond… as a matter of fact, you didn’t participate at all in that thread.

Just like you didn’t participate in the ones you started in this sub forum.

 

[openmind77]

I read how Muhammad came to get the first revelations and i must say the story is quite convincing. Before his first revelation, he was a merchant known as being trusthworthy, truthful, he even acquired a nickname for his trusthworthiness(al-Amin).
Muhammad started to spent many hours alone, speculating over the aspects of creation. He was concerned with the discrimination against women and others in Arabia, about the social unrest, fighting of tribes, and injustice. He then after spending hours praying and thinking, supposedly received his first revelations. He then preached and gained some followers.

He then escaped to Medina and became a totally different person. It seems that power corrupted him somehow.

What do you think of him?

I am afraid I am not that familiar with the life of Muhammad.

In what way was Muhammad corrupted? (I realize he participated in wars to establish his religion/tribe, but so have many popes.)

 

[jakasaki]

While he was traveling with his uncle with the caravan trades, he wasn’t making that much money.

He then heard that a wealthy lady by the name of Khadija was looking for a merchant to drive her caravan goods and sell around the Arabian area.

She was 40 years old and a widow, but very wealthy but also came from a wealthy family.

Mohammad was 25 years old and he accepted the job.

He was married to her for 25 years and then she died.

During this time within this marriage, Muhammad had a monogamous life with his wife.

It was after his wife died he had all of these “so called revelations” of Allah allowing him, and ONLY him to take as many wives as he wished.

So, with the death of his wife, Muhammad acquired all of her wealth.

That’s when he became a powerful man in his community - and the rest is history…

 

[po18guy]

I know of no evidence that Muhammad tested the spirit that allegedly spoke to him. This is crucial. If we do not test the spirits, we have no way of knowing whether they are from God, or from the evil one. Based on the fruits of Islam (“You shall know them by their fruits”), I am 100% certain that any “revelations” received by Muhammad were not from God.

Saint Padre Pio, when a spirit appeared to him, demanded that they worship God before he would hear them. That is testing the spirits.

 

[po18guy]

I am afraid I am not that familiar with the life of Muhammad.

In what way was Muhammad corrupted? (I realize he participated in wars to establish his religion/tribe, but so have many popes.)

Not true! Wars have been engaged in to defend Christianity - NOT to establish it. Huge difference.

 

[po18guy]

I know of no evidence that Muhammad tested the spirit that allegedly spoke to him. This is crucial. If we do not test the spirits, we have no way of knowing whether they are from God, or from the evil one. 1 John 4:1-4 Based on the fruits of Islam (“You shall know them by their fruits”), I am 100% certain that any “revelations” received by Muhammad were not from God.

Saint Padre Pio, when a spirit appeared to him, demanded that they worship God before he would hear them. That is testing the spirits.

Why do you start these Islamic threads and never participate in them…???

As to the OP’s seeming fascination with Islam, which is more tantalizing: the truth, or a lie?

 

[openmind77]

While he was traveling with his uncle with the caravan trades, he wasn’t making that much money.

He then heard that a wealthy lady by the name of Khadija was looking for a merchant to drive her caravan goods and sell around the Arabian area.

She was 40 years old and a widow, but very wealthy but also came from a wealthy family.

Mohammad was 25 years old and he accepted the job.

He was married to her for 25 years and then she died.

During this time within this marriage, Muhammad had a monogamous life with his wife.

It was after his wife died he had all of these “so called revelations” of Allah allowing him, and ONLY him to take as many wives as he wished.

So, with the death of his wife, Muhammad acquired all of her wealth.

That’s when he became a powerful man in his community - and the rest is history…

So the issue is that he had too many wives? But so did many in the OT - are they all corrupt?

Or is the issue about money? Do you think he should have given away his wife’s money after her death?

Clearly Muhammad was no Jesus, but we should probably judge him according to what is written in the Koran, not according to who he married.

Islam and the Koran were a vast improvement over whatever religion and beliefs the Arabs had at that time. Christianity had not been very successful with the Arab tribes before that.

So by that standard, the founding of Islam by Muhammad was a good thing for the region. Perhaps it would have been better if Islam had not spread outside that region, but that does not make it bad religion.

 

[jakasaki]

So the issue is that he had too many wives? But so did many in the OT - are they all corrupt?

Or is the issue about money? Do you think he should have given away his wife’s money after her death?

Clearly Muhammad was no Jesus, but we should probably judge him according to what is written in the Koran, not according to who he married.

Islam and the Koran were a vast improvement over whatever religion and beliefs the Arabs had at that time. Christianity had not been very successful with the Arab tribes before that.

So by that standard, the founding of Islam by Muhammad was a good thing for the region. Perhaps it would have been better if Islam had not spread outside that region, but that does not make it bad religion.

Not sure what you are talking about…

I stated that the wealth is what made him powerful and he used this power to uproot the Arabian region.

 

[openmind77]

Not sure what you are talking about…

I stated that the wealth is what made him powerful and he used this power to uproot the Arabian region.

I am trying to find out where corruption came in (as the OP said),

So Muhammad used his money and power to establish his monotheistic religion in Arabian peninsula - that is not such a bad thing.

 

[dzheremi]

Tell that to the Banu Qurayza, who were Jews and had hundreds murdered during Muhammad’s 25-day siege against them (supposedly on the order of the angel Gabriel, who is always busy helping Muhammad justify murdering people, it seems). For that matter, tell that to all the non-Muslims in Arabia, since it is reported in Muslim sources (such as Malik hadith collection) that Muhammad declared as part of his last sermon that “two religions shall exist in the land of the Arabs”. His successors certainly put that into practice, starting with 'Umar (Muhammad’s successor, who expelled all Jews and Christians to the very fringes of Arabia, and according to some sources eventually ordered the Christian population to be deported to Mesopotamia) and down to our day.

“Not such a bad thing” for who?

 

[openmind77]

Tell that to the Banu Qurayza, who were Jews and had hundreds murdered during Muhammad’s 25-day siege against them (supposedly on the order of the angel Gabriel, who is always busy helping Muhammad justify murdering people, it seems). For that matter, tell that to all the non-Muslims in Arabia, since it is reported in Muslim sources (such as Malik hadith collection) that Muhammad declared as part of his last sermon that “two religions shall exist in the land of the Arabs”. His successors certainly put that into practice, starting with 'Umar (Muhammad’s successor, who expelled all Jews and Christians to the very fringes of Arabia, and according to some sources eventually ordered the Christian population to be deported to Mesopotamia) and down to our day.

“Not such a bad thing” for who?

I was not trying to justify war or killing, but compared to killings in the OT whatever Muhammad did was not as bad.

Jesus of course in a different class by himself - he was divine, he did not believe in violence.

But we should not try to judge Islam as a religion on the basis of such incidents - there have been similar displacements of people based on religion in places like Spain.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

For the love of God ~

Why do you start these Islamic threads and never participate in them…???

Convincing how…??

It is claimed that Gabriel appeared to him in the cave and squeezed Mohammad hard 3 times and asked to read.

Is that the Gabriel you know from the Bible…???

Didn’t the angels say to all they appeared to…

“Fear not…”"

But that did not happened to Mohammad… the angel in the cave did not say… “fear not…” instead squeezed Mohammad to a freight state…

Yeah. It’s also my understanding that he thought that this might be a demon rather than an angel, and that his wife had to convince him otherwise.

Maybe he was more perceptive at first than his wife gave him crredit for.

Maybe it was after he gave himself over to that apparition that he started to become convinced. Or, maybe it was after he was told that it was OK for him to take other women sexually, or when he was told it was ok for him to pillage. THAT is the kind of god someone would want to follow if they were making up a god, or if they wanted to seduce someone into following a false god.

 

[jakasaki]

Yeah. It’s also my understanding that he thought that this might be a demon rather than an angel, and that his wife had to convince him otherwise.

Maybe he was more perceptive at first than his wife gave him crredit for.

Maybe it was after he gave himself over to that apparition that he started to become convinced. Or, maybe it was after he was told that it was OK for him to take other women sexually, or when he was told it was ok for him to pillage. THAT is the kind of god someone would want to follow if they were making up a god, or if they wanted to seduce someone into following a false god.

After studying Islam for Islamic and non Islamic sources, here is my take on this:

He was 25 and his new wife came from a noble wealthy family and she was 40

When this incident happened in the cave, this noble woman most likely wondered who the heck did I marry -

I believe that she thought he was “mad and suffering from an illness” and in order not to embarrass her situation with this ill man, as like … how can this wealthy noble business woman marry an insane man… it was she who told him that he was a prophet and spread the word around town that her husband, Mohammad is a prophet of Allah.

Now, Allah was no stranger to the Arabs on the area because Allah existed before the creation of Islam.

 

[Servant19]

After studying Islam for Islamic and non Islamic sources, here is my take on this:

He was 25 and his new wife came from a noble wealthy family and she was 40

When this incident happened in the cave, this noble woman most likely wondered who the heck did I marry -

I believe that she thought he was “mad and suffering from an illness” and in order not to embarrass her situation with this ill man, as like … how can this wealthy noble business woman marry an insane man… it was she who told him that he was a prophet and spread the word around town that her husband, Mohammad is a prophet of Allah.

Now, Allah was no stranger to the Arabs on the area because Allah existed before the creation of Islam.

…so you think that people who struggled to believe in a compassionate and Divine Jesus simply fell for this random made up fact by Muhammad’s wife?

Thousands simply gave up their lives in service to Muhammad just because His wife was trying to save face???



.

 

[CarmelJerome]

I read how Muhammad came to get the first revelations and i must say the story is quite convincing. Before his first revelation, he was a merchant known as being trusthworthy, truthful, he even acquired a nickname for his trusthworthiness(al-Amin).
Muhammad started to spent many hours alone, speculating over the aspects of creation. He was concerned with the discrimination against women and others in Arabia, about the social unrest, fighting of tribes, and injustice. He then after spending hours praying and thinking, supposedly received his first revelations. He then preached and gained some followers.

He then escaped to Medina and became a totally different person. It seems that power corrupted him somehow.

What do you think of him?

 There've been many different interpretations of who he was because, unlike Jesus, Muhammad was not himself the center of the teachings he recorded, even though the claim is that he was the final prophet sent by the God of Ibrahim; thus there is no 'gospel of Muhammad', and no witnesses who also saw the messenger who claimed to be Gabriel.

Nonetheless, he was one of those who was capable of making a great impression once he began to deliver his message, one who clearly was able to bring out the desire to serve & to sacrifice one’s own good for the sake of the message. He doesn’t appear to have had any acquaintance with Christianity beyond the margins of the Church; he appears to me to be an impassioned monotheist of the type one might have encountered centuries before the advent of Christ.

 

[jakasaki]

…so you think that people who struggled to believe in a compassionate and Divine Jesus simply fell for this random made up fact by Muhammad’s wife?

Thousands simply gave up their lives in service to Muhammad just because His wife was trying to save face???



.

Ba’hai member:

Please do not drag “Jesus” into a “Mohammad” thread

 

[arthra]

In my view Muhammad was already highly respected before the revelations starting at the cave on Mount Hira… He already had wealth and position in the community before the revelations began.

He lost support from his own family and people rejected him… His followers were tormented and eventually boycotted… He was also marked for assassination before he and Abu Bakr fled to Medina… The Hijra.

After his wife of some twenty years passed away, he married women who had been divorced or widowed… Medina became more of a city state and some marriages were arranged for political and social reasons.

Most of the battles in those early years were defensive in nature…

But Islam soon spread from Arabia to the Atlantic and Indian oceans and to central Asia.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I don’t think anything of Muhammad because I am unsure as to what we can know about Muhammad in specific detail. What are our early sources for Islam? Hadith traditions which come between one hundred to three hundred years after, a biography which comes two hundred or so years later and some scant references to him elsewhere.

I think its impossible, at least until historical critical work has begun to say anything for sure about the life of the so called Prophet of Islam.

 

[hasantas]

QUOTE=jakasaki;11884997]For the love of God ~

Why do you start these Islamic threads and never participate in them…???

Convincing how…??

It is claimed that Gabriel appeared to him in the cave and squeezed Mohammad hard 3 times and asked to read.

You claim as if Gabriel appeared to Muhammed(sav) only in cave? That last until His death in different places and times. As a first Muhammed (sav) get afraid but the other times He get used to and even talk to Gabriel like as a friend and sometimes read Qur’an to each others. Some Sahabas could see Gabriel when Gabriel bring revelation. İf Sahabas did not see all that they would never believe in Muhammed.

Is that the Gabriel you know from the Bible…???

I do not know much about Gabriel in Bible. But Gabriel came to all prophets with revelations.

Didn’t the angels say to all they appeared to…

“Fear not…”"

That is true. Gabriel did not say to Muhammed to get afraid! Gabriel provide Muhammed to become calm and they later become as friends. Also Muhammed were so used to Gabriel when coming of Gabriel took a long time Muhammed looked forward for Gabriel.

But that did not happened to Mohammad… the angel in the cave did not say… “fear not…” instead squeezed Mohammad to a freight state…

Gabriel squeezed Muhammed to get he calm as one hold other shoulders to get him calm. And when Gabriel squeezed Muhammed to give Him revelation.

Do you even know anything about from the day Mohammad was born, his jobs as a shepherd, then going on trading merchant trips with his uncle where he learned the trade…

Do you know anything about his meeting and marriage of his first wife…???

İs there any wrong with those? Do not forget prophets are humanbeing they are not angel or god! Moses were a shepherd for a time too. Abraham had two wifes. Some prophet were joiner some were dress maker etc.

The above quote cracks me up every time…!!!

He had no concern regarding women, in fact if you read the Quran & Hadiths they claim quite a bit of negativity on women based on Mohammads words.

Do you know the stuations of women before İslam in that peninsula. Girls were buried and woman had no right for legacy. And İslam gave many rights to women.