Muhammad's illiteracy : common sense & history

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Of course an illiterate can still produce verses and poetry, especially in a place of high oral tradition and Muhammad learned the Arabic language.but that’s beside the point. We are talking about a literate man who raised Muhammad, and Muhammad who raised Ali a highly literate man…yet Muhammad is illiterate…how can it be?
 
Peace Amy,
Sister_Amy said:
It becomes much more difficult if you’re not literate.
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The thing is the Arabs of the Hijaaz had a strong oral tradition. Their poets could make a piece of poetry and memorize it verbatim. I think in this context, even if Muhammad was illiterate the point would be moot. Being a poet in such a culture was not dependent on being literate.
But Muhammad didn’t produce verses, did he? They were revealed to him.
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If they were revealed it was not from God.
 
inJESUS said:
Of course an illiterate can still produce verses and poetry, especially in a place of high oral tradition and Muhammad learned the Arabic language.but that’s beside the point. We are talking about a literate man who raised Muhammad, and Muhammad who raised Ali a highly literate man…yet Muhammad is illiterate…how can it be?
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You’ve completely missed the point, I fear. Alas.

(1) Was Abu Talib literate? I didn’t see you prove that one.

(2) Abu Talib wasn’t the only man to “raise” Muhammad. The statement you quoted (without any source I might add) merely expresses (and editorializes) the relationship between Abu Talib and Muhammad to show how lovable Muhammad was, more than the quality of the education he secured for him.

(3) Not everyone in Makkan society was literate, it wasn’t exactly a necessity.

(4) As a young boy Muhammad was working as a shepherd to make some money–why do you think that was, if he was so taken care of by Abu Talib?

(5) Muhammad was 12 before Abu Talib took him on a caravan–so it’s not like he was being brought up with merchants from his birth, nor that there was any special need to provide him with literary education which certainly wasn’t the standard at the time.

(6) Ali was born after Muhammad was grown–so it’s not like Abu Talib favored Ali over Muhammad by educating him instead. And as I said before, because of the age difference you can’t assume they lived parallel lives (unless you’re a shi’a maybe. who knows.)

(7) Ali also didn’t have the same MOTHER as Muhammad, and you neglect entirely the role of the mother in educating children.
 
TomaszA said:
Peace Amy,

The thing is the Arabs of the Hijaaz had a strong oral tradition. Their poets could make a piece of poetry and memorize it verbatim. I think in this context, even if Muhammad was illiterate the point would be moot. Being a poet in such a culture was not dependent on being literate.
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It’s interesting then that the poets were amazed by the Qur’an, and did not think that Muhammad could have produced it.
If they were revealed it was not from God.
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The Arabs of the Hijaz would disagree with you.
 
Just as a reminder, King Charlemagne was also functionally illiterate - yet he encouraged literacy with all his considerable power!

I could list quite a few more similar cases, but that one’s pretty good already. 😉
 
What is the point of this thread. Who cares whether Mohammad was literate or not?
 
I agree with paul c. We shouldn’t be worrying over whether or not someone whos’ dead (no offense meant) could read or not. Instead we should be doing something a bit more constructive. Like prayer.

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls into Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy. Amen.
 
Sister_Amy said:
The conclusion you thus attempted to draw.
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What a weak and typically Islamic thing you are doing. When you have no answers, you either pretend to not understand it or write it off as ridiculous. Typical. :rolleyes:
 
Eucharisted said:
I agree with paul c. We shouldn’t be worrying over whether or not someone whos’ dead (no offense meant) could read or not. Instead we should be doing something a bit more constructive. Like prayer.

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls into Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy. Amen.
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Im sorry, but i disagree with you. It is definitely important to prove such things. Its a big thing in islam that muhammad was not literate. Its important to prove he was for many reasons. The fact he wrote the quran himself and also managed to fool many followers.
 
Peace Amy,
Sister_Amy said:
It’s interesting then that the poets were amazed by the Qur’an, and did not think that Muhammad could have produced it.
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Muhammad recited the Qur’an for thirteen years, apparently its miraculous nature was not that convincing. Islam didn’t become popular until it was seen as a power to be reckoned with.
 
TomaszA said:
Peace Amy,

Muhammad recited the Qur’an for thirteen years, apparently its miraculous nature was not that convincing. Islam didn’t become popular until it was seen as a power to be reckoned with.
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This is very true. It’s even documented that Mohammed stole ideas and used them in Islam. (It’s a hadith, if I’m not mistaken)
 
TomaszA said:
Peace Amy,

Muhammad recited the Qur’an for thirteen years, apparently its miraculous nature was not that convincing. Islam didn’t become popular until it was seen as a power to be reckoned with.
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those who did not believe him said he was simply a poet . Surely they saw no difference between him and other poets.
Besides, there are people who believe the Book of Mormons is from God from similar reasons…these subjective reasons were never ever given as a criteria in God’s words…if beautiful words mean divinity, then pre-islamic poets were all prophets.
 
dolphinlove said:
Im sorry, but i disagree with you. It is definitely important to prove such things. Its a big thing in islam that muhammad was not literate. Its important to prove he was for many reasons. The fact he wrote the quran himself and also managed to fool many followers.
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I’m sorry, I never thought that you could disprove Islam by proving that Mohammad was literate.
 
**It becomes much more difficult if you’re not literate. But Muhammad didn’t produce verses, did he?

They were revealed to him.**

**They were revaled to him by an inferior demon claiming to be the Archangel Gabriel.

I bear witness there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead.**
 
As a follow up to what i wrote previously, i;d like the quote the following from the Seera Al-Halabiyya:

جاء فى الجزء الأول من السيرة الحلبية ص 89 : إنه صلى الله عليه وسلم كان يقول لأصحابه أنا أعربكم أى أفصحكم عربية . أنا قرشى واسترضعت فى بنى سعد. وجاء أن أبا بكر رضى الله تعالى عنه لما قال له صلى الله عليه وسلم ما رأيت أفصح منك يا رسول الله فقال له ما يمنعنى وأنا من قريش وأرضعت فى بنى سعد. راجع : حجة الله على العالمين في معجزات سيد المرسلين2/2

i translate:

in the first part of the Seera Halabiyya page 89 : PBUH used to tell his companions : am the most eloquent among you. Am a Quraishite and was nursed from Bani Saad. Abi Bakr when told Muhammad that he is very eloquent, Muhammad replied : why not? what do i lack and i am from Quraich and was nursed by Bani Saad?

As i told before, Quraich was a very noble tribe known for it;s high literacy among the Arabs. And here is the Seera, an authentic Islamic reference attesting to the fact that Muhammad boasted of eloquence since he was of Bani Quraich ( not because Allah made him eloquent).
 
A good question indeed, however, someone would wonder how Allah or that angel didn’t know that he was illiterate and asking him forcefully to read ;):

The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me …**."
(E) (A).
 
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