Muhammed or Jesus: The prophet like unto Moses

[chrisse]

God had promised the Jews a prophet, the like of Moses, from the brethren of the Jews. Not from the brethren of Moses. Jews cannot be the brethren of the Jews.
That prophet was not to come before Jesus. He had not arrived till the time of Jesus because the men sent by the Jewish elders to meet John the baptist had asked John three questions: Jews were waiting for three persons, as follows:

1. Are you Alias?
2. Are you Christ?
3. Are you that prophet? (See John ch. 1 )

John the baptist denied being any of them. It means “That Prophet” had not yet arrived till time of Jesus. If he had arrived then Jews would not be waiting for him.

If That Prophet was the Christ, then they should not have asked for That Prophet separately a second time. Asking only once was enough. Please see these things.

Must be a real downer for you that our books are corrupted according to Allah (oh, and the little fact that allah must have let them be corrupted).

So, why are you quoting from “corrupted books”?

 

[Sam_777]

Jews were waiting for three persons, as follows:

1. Are you Alias?
2. Are you Christ?
3. Are you that prophet? (See John ch. 1 )

John the baptist denied being any of them.

(Matthew 11:12-14):
“From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.”

 

[planten]

(Matthew 11:12-14):
“From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.”

Yes, you are right. John the Baptist was Elias as told by Jesus. Otherwise he was not the same old Elias who has gone up in the whirlwind. The coming of Elias was prophesied before the coming of the mighty messenger. So John came in place of Elias. The prophesy had been fulfilled by the coming of John the baptist.

 

[Hamza]

Must be a real downer for you that our books are corrupted according to Allah (oh, and the little fact that allah must have let them be corrupted).

So, why are you quoting from “corrupted books”?

Because you believe in them and think every word is from God. We are simply pointing out the errors in the text and/or the errors in your understanding.

Allah gave the responsibility for the preservation of the text in previous revealed scripture to those people who the revelation was aimed. The Qur’an however is protected by God Himself and it has never been altered and will never be altered.

Almighty God says:

We have sent down the Reminder, and We will preserve it.] (Al-Hijr 15: 9)
He also says

[Do not move your tongue trying to hasten it. **Its collection and recitation are Our affair. So when We recite it, follow its recitation. Then its explanation is Our concern.] (Al-Qiyamah 75: 16-19)

S we have God’s word that He has protected it from error

 

[sedonaman]

If that angel is Lucifer then you will have to think that same Lucifer was visitng Joseph the carpentar …

This is called a non-sequitur. A non-sequitur is a form of erroneous thinking. iep.utm.edu/f/fallacy.htm#Non%20Sequitur

But, then again, what else is new?

 

[sedonaman]

The Qur’an however is protected by God Himself and it has never been altered and will never be altered. …S we have God’s word that He has protected it from error.

Which Qur’an are you talking about? The Mecca or the Medina? And if the Qur’an is unchangeable, why are there two different versions?

 

[jakasaki]

Which Qur’an are you talking about? The Mecca or the Medina? And if the Qur’an is unchangeable, why are there two different versions?

Hi Sedona Man -

Please pardon my ignorance as I always love to learn. What’s this with the Medina/Mecca koran deal.

Can you enlighten and idiot like me.

Thank you and May God Bless Us, Everyone!
Regards,
Pam
New York

 

[planten]

This is called a non-sequitur. A non-sequitur is a form of erroneous thinking. iep.utm.edu/f/fallacy.htm#Non%20Sequitur

But, then again, what else is new?

**sedonaman, I do not know why you call my argument as a non-sequitur. You want everything good for yourself and bad for the others to start with. That is bad sequitur.

Why not I call your post or report about the angel as false. That (your argument) would be a fallacy in the first place. Then I do not have to answer to your false argument.

WE Muslims believe that it was the same angel who visited Joseph the father of Jesus and the same one visited the messenger Muhammad. You are disputing that fact. You want a real good angel for yourself and a devil for the others.

You are not justified in your thinking. You have bad ideas. In religious matters, one should be honest and balanced. That is the simple logic that I have learnt all the time. No need of any sequitur.**

 

[planten]

** That is right. I agree with you. But what about those three questions which were asked by the men of the Jewish elders in John chaper 1?

John the Baptist had come as Elias. He was not the original (old, real) Elias. He had come to announce the arrival of Christ. He was not THAT PROPHET and the text of the bible proves THAT PROPHET was different to the Christ. Jews were waiting for three persons, not two.

It seem that you have a weak point there that is why you are not willing to discuss that. Wina is also upset. And no real reply. Please explain why they asked about each one separately and very honestly. The Jews were expecting three persons. They were worried about the status of John the Baptist. Was he any of those three promised persons?

I would appreciate some honest good reply please because it is concerned with the topic " Muhammed or Jesus: The prophet like unto Moses".
**

 

[R_not]

Because you believe in them and think every word is from God. We are simply pointing out the errors in the text and/or the errors in your understanding.

Allah gave the responsibility for the preservation of the text in previous revealed scripture to those people who the revelation was aimed. The Qur’an however is protected by God Himself and it has never been altered and will never be altered.

Almighty God says:

We have sent down the Reminder, and We will preserve it.] (Al-Hijr 15: 9)
He also says

[Do not move your tongue trying to hasten it. **Its collection and recitation are Our affair

. So when We recite it, follow its recitation. Then its explanation is Our concern.] (Al-Qiyamah 75: 16-19)

S we have God’s word that He has protected it from error

No muslim has ever proven that the Bible was corrupted. If it is corrupted there must be a version of it that they can show us that shows us the differences.

Please do not use the koran or hadiths to prove your point since they were quoted from an illiterate pagan who couldn’t even read the Bible.

 

[R_not]

Hi Sedona Man -

Please pardon my ignorance as I always love to learn. What’s this with the Medina/Mecca koran deal.

Can you enlighten and idiot like me.

Thank you and May God Bless Us, Everyone!
Regards,
Pam
New York

I don’t see a response, but I can help a little bit here. If sedonaman wants to reply I am not trying to stop him.

the koran is basically made up of two distinct time periods in mohammed’s life after he thought up islam. The Meccan period and the Medina period.

the Meccan period is called his more peaceful times (and I disagreed that these were really that peaceful since we see from the hadiths that mohammed made himself a ‘pill’ to the people of Mecca and the elders went to his uncle to ask him to curb mohammed’s poor behavior, see below for some references to the hadiths) and the Medina period is his more violent times. Basically we see a decline in mohammed’s personal self! but, in Mecca we see the beginnings of the intolerance that mohammed, and his followers, display.

Anyway, the koran is very confusing because there is no real order to it. So, the meccan and medina surahs are intermixed.

Here are some articles about the koran in faithfreedom.org

But an article that goes more into answering your question is this one: Meccan and Medina surahs

Basically, this is one of the reasons why mohammed is not a prophet because one of the reasons is that he basis on a koran that contradicts itself.

**Ishaq:119 “'Abu Tabib, your nephew Muhammad has cursed our gods [at this point he had cursed all of them, including Allah], insulted our religion [more correctly, insulted them by trying to steal their religion], mocked our way of life and accused our forefathers of error. Either you stop him or let us get to him. For you, like us, are in opposition to him. He gave them a conciliatory reply. They returned a second time and said, ‘We have asked you to put a stop to your nephew’s activities but you have not done so. By Allah, we cannot endure having our fathers reviled and our customs mocked.’ Muhammad thought that his uncle had the idea of abandoning and betraying him, and that he was going to lose his support. The Apostle broke into tears.”

Tabari VI:93 “The Quraysh went to Abu Talib and said, ‘Your nephew [Muhammad] has reviled our gods, denounced our religion, derided our traditional values, and told us that our forefathers were misguided [and burning in hell]. Either curb his attacks on us or give us a free hand to deal with him, for you are as opposed to him as we are.’ They said, ‘We asked you to forbid your nephew from attacking us, but you did nothing. By Allah, we can no longer endure this vilification of our forefathers, this derision of our traditional values, and this abuse of our gods.’ This breach and enmity with his tribe weighed heavily on Talib. ‘Abu Talib, you are our elder and our chief, so give us justice against your nephew and order him to desist from reviling our gods, and we will leave him to his god.’”

Tabari VI:95 “Abu Talib sent for Muhammad. ‘Nephew, here are the shaykhs and nobles of your tribe. They have asked for justice against you. You should desist from reviling their gods and they will leave you to your god.’”

Tabari VI:96 “Abu Talib said to Muhammad, ‘Nephew, how is it that your tribe is complaining of you and claiming that you are reviling their gods and saying this, that, and the other?’ The Messenger said, 'I want them to utter one saying. If they say it, the Arabs will submit to them and the non-Arabs will pay the jizyah [submission tax] to them.”**

 

[chrisse]

Because you believe in them and think every word is from God. We are simply pointing out the errors in the text and/or the errors in your understanding.

Allah gave the responsibility for the preservation of the text in previous revealed scripture to those people who the revelation was aimed. The Qur’an however is protected by God Himself and it has never been altered and will never be altered.

Almighty God says:

We have sent down the Reminder, and We will preserve it.] (Al-Hijr 15: 9)
He also says

[Do not move your tongue trying to hasten it. **Its collection and recitation are Our affair

. So when We recite it, follow its recitation. Then its explanation is Our concern.] (Al-Qiyamah 75: 16-19)

S we have God’s word that He has protected it from error
Trouble with your argument is that allah pre-determines everything. So, according to the qur’an, he gave the book to the Jews and Christians,even though he had predestined them to corrupt it. Therefore your allah is a fickle allah playing a violent game on humans - setting up some so that others can kill them.

Your allah is also a liar - he deceived the Christians by making them think that it was Jesus Christ on the cross, when he put someone else who looked like Him on the cross to die.

But then again, your qur’an itself declares itself a corrupted, man-made book declaring that if any contradictions are found then it is not from allah. 67% of the suras have been abrogated, your scholars are twisting themselves trying to reconcile this.

 

[jakasaki]

I don’t see a response, but I can help a little bit here. If sedonaman wants to reply I am not trying to stop him.

the koran is basically made up of two distinct time periods in mohammed’s life after he thought up islam. The Meccan period and the Medina period.

the Meccan period is called his more peaceful times (and I disagreed that these were really that peaceful since we see from the hadiths that mohammed made himself a ‘pill’ to the people of Mecca and the elders went to his uncle to ask him to curb mohammed’s poor behavior, see below for some references to the hadiths) and the Medina period is his more violent times. Basically we see a decline in mohammed’s personal self! but, in Mecca we see the beginnings of the intolerance that mohammed, and his followers, display.

Anyway, the koran is very confusing because there is no real order to it. So, the meccan and medina surahs are intermixed.

Here are some articles about the koran in faithfreedom.org

But an article that goes more into answering your question is this one: Meccan and Medina surahs

Basically, this is one of the reasons why mohammed is not a prophet because one of the reasons is that he basis on a koran that contradicts itself.

R_Not - Thanks much. I did spent some time researching it and I pretty much found what you wrote.

Friday, August 10, 2007
Which Quran, Mecca or Medina?
The Quran as we know it today is in reality two quite different books. The older Quran was written in Mecca while the later Quran was written in Medina.

This lead some scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, to refer to the Quran by its two parts, the Mecca Quran and the Medina Quran. Both were transcribed as told by Muhammad to a scribe, as Muhammad was illiterate as were a majority in his day.

A majority of the Surah in the Quran were written in Mecca with the rest written in Medina. The problem is that the Surah in the Quran are not placed in chronological order, but are ordered as shown here, along with the city of origin of each Surah.

This will have importance later in this article. By not ordering the Surah in their chronological order one must refer to the Hadiths and other Islamic texts to discern the original order as Muhammad received his visions from Allah.

This added to the secretive mystery that was spun around the Quran making its reading less straightforward to non-Muslims.

The Mecca Quran was all about tolerance, tranquility, spirituality, acceptance, and inner cleansing through submission to the word of Allah.

This earlier part of the Quran also dictated many of the rules that individual Muslims must perform and abide in their day-to-day lives. In my most humble opinion the Mecca Quran formed a basis for a religion that bridged some of the gaps and controversies between the Christians and the Jews.

Where Christians no longer followed much of the Rules of Kashrut, the Jewish dietary laws, the Quran reinstated many of these laws. But in the Mecca Quran the idea of an eye for an eye was replaced by a more Christian philosophy.

In many ways I see the Mecca Quran as an attempt at a compromise that would appeal to those Jews who found merit in the Christian teachings but refused to release from Jewish traditions while also appealing to those Christians who were not totally comfortable with having left so much of Judaism behind.

Either way, Muhammad set about to preach his revelations and gain converts, mostly from among Christians and Jews. The major obstacle in Muhammad’s efforts was that times were economically very good and most people were quite content with their current way of life.

When people are happy and things are going well, people are usually not open to change as change may upset the balance or whatever that gives them this comfort and wealth.

With time, Muhammad became more vocal as he was probably very frustrated that so few were willing to accept his preaching of Allah. This lead to his being forcefully requested to depart Mecca. So, he and his core converts to Islam made their way to Medina.

Too much info to copy/paste: - There is more from this link :
beyondthecusp.blogspot.com/2007/08/which-quran-mecca-or-medina.html

And oh by the way R_Not:
I’m a member of FFI but ever since they upgraded to their new server on New Years day, my Windows Internet Explorer does not support it. I’m in the process of an upgrade to Windows XP-SP3.

I’m so behind my PC upgrades.

I’m also a daily visitor to investigateislam.com and well as answering-islam.org, thereligionofpeace.com and also a member of “act for america”… and a few others.

Thanks for the reply and have a great day!
God Bless,
Pam
New York

 

[sedonaman]

Hi Sedona Man -

Please pardon my ignorance as I always love to learn. What’s this with the Medina/Mecca koran deal.

Can you enlighten and idiot like me.

Thank you and May God Bless Us, Everyone!
Regards,
Pam
New York

The Koran is both a religious text and a political/historical text.

Mohammed preached the religion of Islam in Mecca for 13 years and gained 150 followers. In Mecca the Koran is generally religious.

Then Mohammed moved [some say he was driven out] to Medina and found out that he could get more converts by force and reward with booty than by persuasion, and he became a politician and warrior. In 10 years time, he annihilated the Jews of Medina, who were half of the town’s citizens. He returned to Mecca with a sizable army to extract revenge for being driven out before. Then he turned to attacking all kafirs. In the last 9 years of his life he was involved in a violent event every 6 weeks, on the average. He died without a single enemy left in Arabia.

The Koran in Medina is political in nature and very violent. For example:

(Koran of Mecca) 73:10: Listen to what they [unbelievers] say with patience, and leave them with dignity.

From tolerance we move to the ultimate intolerance, not even the Lord of the Universe can stand the unbelievers:

(Koran of Medina) 8:12: Then your Lord spoke to His angels and said, “I will be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the unbelievers’ hearts, cut off their heads and even the tips of their fingers!”

So there are two Korans – the Meccan Koran and the Medinan Koran. In the same way, there are two Mohammeds – Meccan Mohammed and Medinan Mohammed. The confusing thing is that the two Mohammeds and the two Korans contradict each other. But the Koran gives a rule for resolving the contradictions – the later is better and stronger than the earlier. So Medina abrogates Mecca. The bad news is that jihad developed in Medina, and all the “nice” verses are weaker than the intolerant verses.

Approximately two thirds of the Koran of Mecca is devoted to the Koranic Argument of “listen to Mohammed, the prophet of the only god, Allah, or you will suffer eternal torture in Hell.” When Mohammed achieved political power, the religious threats became political reality. The Koranic Argument of religion in Mecca became the political practice in Medina.

There are 146 references to Hell in the Koran. Only 6% of those in Hell are there for moral failings – murder, theft, etc. The other 94% of the reasons for being in Hell are for the intellectual sin of disagreeing with Mohammed, a political crime. Hence, Islamic Hell is a political prison for those who speak against Islam.

Refs: politicalislam.com , americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4467 , hoover.org/publications/policyreview/4825051.html

 

[sedonaman]

I don’t see a response, but I can help a little bit here. If sedonaman wants to reply I am not trying to stop him.

I guess I should have read yours before posting mine, but I think we largely agree on this.

Anyway, the koran is very confusing because there is no real order to it. So, the meccan and medina surahs are intermixed.

Thanks for the links. Warner did some interesting work by putting the Koran in chronological order and adding in the life of Mohammed. newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/20959/sec_id/20959 . Very interesting.

 

[R_not]

Trouble with your argument is that allah pre-determines everything. So, according to the qur’an, he gave the book to the Jews and Christians,even though he had predestined them to corrupt it. Therefore your allah is a fickle allah playing a violent game on humans - setting up some so that others can kill them.

Your allah is also a liar - he deceived the Christians by making them think that it was Jesus Christ on the cross, when he put someone else who looked like Him on the cross to die.

But then again, your qur’an itself declares itself a corrupted, man-made book declaring that if any contradictions are found then it is not from allah. 67% of the suras have been abrogated, your scholars are twisting themselves trying to reconcile this.

There are so many contradictions, these articles are not even completed yet by the author! But, he has provided 3 Parts for us now to show the contradictions in the koran:

Contradictions in the koran, part 1
Contradictions in the koran, part 2
Contradictions in the koran, part 3

 

[jakasaki]

Thank you Sedona Man and R_Not for the replies.

I just keep learning every day!

Just wondering, do our muslim members on this board know about these two different korans and what is their opinion or knowledge of them.

Thanks again, and best regards.

May God Bless Us All, Everyone!
Pam
New York

 

[R_not]

I guess I should have read yours before posting mine, but I think we largely agree on this.

Thanks for the links. Warner did some interesting work by putting the Koran in chronological order and adding in the life of Mohammed. newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/20959/sec_id/20959 . Very interesting.

Thanks for the article - I already bought the books awhile back from The Center of Political Islam.

I like that article though… an F as a grade! It was a good article on why, if anyone wants to know why the muslims behave as they do - some are violent and the ‘peaceful’ ones are more like their spokespeople trying to put a different spin on their violence, or just saying they ‘distort’ islam, or whatever they have to say when they are cornered.

the biggest thing when one starts to understand islam is to ignore, or call them to task, when they say WE are distorting islam and should go speak to a cleric (whose main duty would be to deceive us and to try to get us to convert ), or tell us we are bashing islam, or bring up some other nonsense in order to deflect from the problem/question at hand, etc.

Whatever tactic they use - it is all a part of islam - to deceive us as to the ultimate goal of all muslims. Yes, all muslims. the goal - to kill, subjugate or convert us.

The ‘peaceful’ or ‘silent, deceptive’ ones do not necessarily want us dead or converted - but they do indeed want us subjugated to sharia laws so we are left with no rights under islam but some vague promise that we can still practice our religion - that some forget about quite often and abuse/kill the subjugated ones anyway. and under sharia laws anyone who does anything to a subjugated one doesn’t have to worry since the subjugated ones have no rights.

Oh well, I can go on about this subject, obviously!

And this quote:

I call this structure the Koranic Argument. The argument is that the kafirs are wrong, Mohammed is right and violence will come to those who deny him.

puts the goal in a nice, short sentence. This quote is from the article.

 

[sedonaman]

Just wondering, do our muslim members on this board know about these two different korans and what is their opinion or knowledge of them.

My guess is that they do because they use the same boiler-plate arguments to counter non-Muslim claims about Islam, and what Muslims have done to explain the contradictions in the koran.

islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/whither_the_islamic_infidels.htm

 

[jakasaki]

Bump -

**Just wondering, do our muslim members on this board know about these two different korans and what is their opinion or knowledge of them. **

Thanks again, and best regards.

May God Bless Us All, Everyone!
Pam
New York

Can our muslim members talk about this Medina version of the koran and the Mecca version of the koran…

What do you know about it?

Thank you everyone!
God Bless
Pam
New York