Muhammed or...

[Damascus]

I’m trying to reasonbly discuss this topic without leaning into prejudice, so I’m not sure what to say to you Dasmascus.

What - that non Catholic publication you posted a link to that is about new age trends?

You are a funny guy.

 

[Damascus]

Guess what Mr Ex nillo-

Quote problems or not- you refuse to answer my questions or stop bearing false witness against me.
You have made a bunch of allegations and one only needs to read my words to see what I did not say and what you claim I said.
You will not answer post 50 correctly- I was pretty clear - I think I need to start a thread to ask the Jewish people this question since you cant.
53- false witness
last posts- you said I used the words intrinsically evil-
I think you have gone over the line!
If that is the way you are that is fine. Put words in my mouth-
The posts are there for anyone to see.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I am sorry to be vauge.

I am looking for examples of Jewish people putting Jewish people that convert to another faith to death.

I am not talking about early Christians.

I am talking about someone who never was a Christian - and a Jew all their life.

Nice try mr ex nillio

Have you ever thoroughly read through the Mosaic Law and then the Book of Joshua and even beyond within the Hebrew Scriptures?

I’m not being cryptic Damascus. You know as well as I do that there are passages within the ancient Hebrew Scriptures which are quite disturbing by our Christian standards.

Although I don’t let these kinds of passages bother me, there are many people who have a hard time reconciling the earliest Hebrew records concerning God’s will when contrasted against the loving God of our Christian Scriptures.

Quite frankly, there are many examples of Jewish laws, all throughout the Books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy for example, which demanded Jews to put fellow Jewish people that convert to another faith to death.

In addition to this, there are many examples, all throughout the Book of Joshua, Judges and Samuel for example, of Jewish people putting non-Jewish people that refuse to convert to Judaism to death too.

Not even children were spared Damascus

Deuteronomy 2:34
At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.

Deuteronomy 3:6
We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children.

Joshua 6:21
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Joshua 8:26
For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in Ai.

Joshua 10:37
They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it.

Joshua 10:40
So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Judges 21:10
So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children.

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

1 Samuel 22:19
He also put to the sword Nob, the town of the priests, with its men and women, its children and infants, and its cattle, donkeys and sheep.

How do you reconcile passages like this in the Hebrew Scriptures with our loving God within Christianity?

 

[Damascus]

These battles you mention -

Were ANY of them condoned by God?

You better rewiew your position if you say no.

 

[Damascus]

Lets say this and make it really simple.

In the world we happen to have to live in TODAY–

Where have there been any incidents of Jewish people making a law to put apostates on trial with the punishment if found guilty would be death?

Answer that please.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

What - that non Catholic publication you posted a link to that is about new age trends?

You are a funny guy.

Thank you.

 

[Damascus]

Thank you.

I always try to find something good in someone who lies about what I said.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

These battles you mention -

Were ANY of them condoned by God?

You better rewiew your position if you say no.

When did I say they weren’t condoned by God?

The passage from Joshua 10:40 already shows that God commanded them to do this.

I’ve read through these before and I’m fairly sure that most of them do display that God either commanded or else sanctioned their battles.

Do you want me to actually go through the other quotes and see if God actually commanded them to do it or not?

Damascus:

Lets say this and make it really simple.

In the world we happen to have to live in TODAY–

Where have there been any incidents of Jewish people making a law to put apostates on trial with the punishment if found guilty would be death?

Answer that please.

First of all, like I said before, even if there are Jewish people who act this way, I most certainly don’t think they speak for all Jewish people.

I don’t know of any recent incidents of Jewish people making a law to put apostates on trial with the punishment if found guilty would be death.

But I am familiar with both Christian and Muslim persecution by secular Jewish authorities within Israel.

Are you familiar with the case of Nicola Ghattas, the Orthodox Christian living in Beit Sahour for example?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I always try to find something good in someone who lies about what I said.

I didn’t lie about anything Damascus. I misunderstood you. I honestly thought you were saying that I’m in favor of people having sex with children.

This is what you said, right?

Damascus:

What Jewish prophet had a six year old wife?

Mr ex nillio?

It seems to me that in order for you to even ask me this question, you seemed to have assumed that I in some way thought this was an acceptable religious practice, or that this was in some way compatible with our Catholic faith.

I’ve never suggested such a thing-- so I’m not honestly sure why you even asked me this question.

Why did you even ask me this question Damascus?

 

[Damascus]

I’m going to bed now-

I will respond to you tomorrow or you can pm me or I can start a new thread about posters who lie about other posters words.

You decide how to go from here.

But- you might get away with making false accusations of me here-

ask yourself who else you may have to think about.

You mentioned once in a post you were not a muslim.

I noted that no one accused you of being one.

The thing is , you dont have to be muslim to follow Islam do you mr ex nillio?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Mr. Ex Nihilo,
I’ve been thinking about your posts.

Thank you Carol. I missed this post before and I really do appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut here in this thread.

I was so caught up with other posts, that I totally missed this one.
carol marie:

I agree with what you’re saying - but gosh, I am soooooo not there.

I know-- and in many ways I feel the same way.

Nothwithstanding a true mircale, it seems virtually impossible to actually engage the militant forms of Islam in any kind of ecumenical dialogue.

In one sense, if some Muslim philosopher’s portrayal of Islam is accurate, we as Catholics are quite frankly confounded with the Islamic concept of a potentially capricious God which seems to present him, at least by some Muslim interpretations, in such a way where he is not held accountable even to his own word.

In another sense, at least within some Muslim circles, we also see a semi-tradition where Muslims are permitted to lie in order to achieve a greater good in the name of Islam. While I’m sure that not all Muslims hold this view, I am also positive that this is a facet of some Koranic interpretations that simply cannot be reconciled with Catholicism at all.

When one takes these two senses and adds them together with the idea held by ‘some’ Muslims that jihad indicates a physical war against all infidels, and that Allah’s greatest glories are reserved for those who kill infidels in the name of spreading Islam, we are clearly presented with an aspect of militant Islam that simply cannot be reconciled with Catholicism period.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.
carol marie:

I am just so very angry at Muslims for not speaking out against the fanatics that seem hell-bent on riding the world of everyone who isn’t Muslim.

I used to think this way too. But then when I read articles like this…

The body of a Muslim convert to Christianity who went missing in mid-July, has been returned to his family, slaughtered and cut into four pieces by Islamic extremists.

The man left his friends and family almost two weeks ago heading into a mountainous region of the Palestinian Authority area. He took Christian materials including cassettes, videos and Bibles with him. After approximately ten days during which his friends and family received no word from him, his body was returned to them. He had been brutally killed and his body carved into four
pieces as a warning to other converts. He leaves behind a wife and two small children.

Local Christians in this part of the Holy Land have been involved in supporting converts from a Muslim background who suffer persecution from Islamic extremists in the Palestinian Authority areas. Some of them have also been the target of attacks. Last year one such Christian received a phone call telling him that a
Muslim convert was in a serious condition in hospital; in response he immediately set off in his car. On the way his vehicle was deliberately driven off the road by another car. The phone call later proved to be a hoax designed to lead him into trap. In another attempt on his life this same Christian was hospitalized. Local Christians working to support converts from Islam report
that Islamic militants in the Palestinian Authority area deliberately target converts. Hamas in particular reportedly receives funding from Iran specifically for this purpose.

According to shari’a (Islamic law) any Muslim male who leaves Islam (apostatizes) faces the death penalty.

worldnetdaily.com

This is one of the more recent cases.

But things like this have been going on for some time now-- and when I read things like this I can sincerely understand why the more moderate Muslims do not speak out more often than they do. They too fear for their families and lives just like we do.

Nonetheless, there are still some who do speak out. God bless this man for speaking from within his own culture to correct those who are doing wrong in God’s eyes.
carol marie:

The fanatics may be a fringe - but they are powerful and I’m afraid of the world my children will grow up in because of them.

It seems clear to me that the world is racing toward some kind of conflagration of east vs. west once again. Make that east vs. middle-east vs. east.

I could be wrong. But unless some great miracle occurs, I fear that the 21st century is fore-ordained to move more into the direction of revolution in the name of extreme militant democracy, an increase in anti-Catholic secular humanism coupled with pro-death humans rights movements, a rise in European-Arabic violence which may entangle many other nations, and an ever increasing pre-occupation with oil and other natural resources.

Even still, even if I’m correct in my prediction (and I’ve been wrong before I’m certainly no prophet), there’s still hope regardless of how bleak it may look.

I myself am weak in this regard. But we need to carry our rosary into battle here. Like the Ark of the Covenant, the Mother of our Lord is a mighty weapon chosen and fashioned by God himself, perfect in every way for battling peacefully against the schemes of the adversary.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.
carol marie:

And I can’t help but wonder if the silent Muslims are secretly glad that the fanatics are doing the dirty work?

When one adds the semi-tradition amongst some Muslims of lying in order to further Islam coupled with a veiw of caprcious God who is not even held accountable to his own word, it does remain a valid possibility that some covert Muslims may be secretly doing this. And I do think that some do this.

But, more than this, I honestly think it’s fear of their own extremists which intimidates them into silence. History time and again shows this same pattern-- and not just with Muslims either…

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
carol marie:

I do believe Jesus would have us turn the other cheek and lay down our life if it helped to further the gospel. I wish I had a love for the Muslim people, but in the same week that I’m remembering how they flew planes into our buildings, they’ve called for the head of my Pope and they’ve murdered a nun. I have a such a hard time thinking about ANY Muslim with any sort of compassion or love that Jesus would ask of me.

Please bear in mind that he’s our Pope together.

And as we both know, His Holiness only offered a very Spirit led challenge to the views of some Muslims which specifically linked Islamic violence to a well-documented history of some Islamic theologians.

In other words, he has done nothing wrong.

And if other Muslims disagree with his words and feel that he has misrepresented Islam, then they have every chance to accept the challenge to theologically discuss the issue within a genuine spirit of Islamic-Catholic ecumenism.

As far as I understand, true ecumenism isn’t about converting each other-- although this is sometimes the result. Rather, it’s about ensuring that both sides of the discussion truly understand each others thoughts regarding each others faith.

Nonetheless, even if he were to be martyred in Turkey by extremists, I’m sure that His Holiness’ soul would simply be caught up with the soul of blessed Leonella Sgorbati (and all the angels and saints) to then join us here on earth to pray for the conversion of those who murdered them.

MURDERED NUN: POPE, "LET SPILT BLOOD BE SEED OF DIALOGUE
(AGI) - Vatican City, Sep 19

“Let the blood spilt from such a faithful disciple of the Gospel become the seed of hope to built an authentic brotherhood between people with mutual respect for each person’s religious convictions,” said Benedict XVI, who entrusted Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the new Secretary of the State, with the task of expressing the Pope’s pain for the “tragic death of sister Leonella Sgorbati, brutally killed in Mogadishu”.
AGI - 191903 SET 06

This seems to be the proper Catholic response to me. I’m not familiar with any other way to properly conduct myself that is so distinctly Catholic.
carol marie:

But I appreciate your posts. They make me realize that I have some praying and work to do. Jesus said we are to love our enemies and pray for them. Not hate them. We are better than that.

CM

Thank you.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I’m going to bed now-

Good night.

Damascus:

I will respond to you tomorrow or you can pm me or I can start a new thread about posters who lie about other posters words.

You decide how to go from here.

I’m not interested in PMing you Damascus. And as far as starting a new thread about posters who lie about other posters words, you’re welcome to it.

I don’t think it’s going to do much good though.

Damascus:

But- you might get away with making false accusations of me here-

I haven’t made false accusations against you Damascus. And I’m sorry if you or anyone else were hurt by the words I said.

I may have quoted the wrong text you printed. But my response is still the same. I haven’t said anything wrong in this thread.

Damascus:

ask yourself who else you may have to think about.

You mentioned once in a post you were not a muslim.

I noted that no one accused you of being one.

The thing is , you dont have to be muslim to follow Islam do you mr ex nillio?

At this point you’ve totally lost me Damascus. I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

If I’ve said anything that’s offended you, I’m sorry. I’m not sure what else to say.

I confess to almighty God and to you brother that I have sinned through my own fault, in thoughts, words and deeds in what I have done and what I have failed to do.

 

[exoflare]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Originally Posted by exoflare
Not to mention endorsing polygamy, making your ideal society where members of all other religions will have to pay a special tax for the “privilege” of living in peace, and putting apostates to death…

But, to be fair, if that’s all that you see when you look to Islam, then neither of you have actually looked very hard to see what Islam actually has to offer.

I can’t believe you’re really saying this!! Either Islam sanctions these things, or it does not. Since these are integral parts of the Islamic faith, that means that if one constitutes moral error then Islam itself stands in error. May not be so PC of me to say that, but it’s just that simple!

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I can’t believe you’re really saying this!! Either Islam sanctions these things, or it does not. Since these are integral parts of the Islamic faith, that means that if one constitutes moral error then Islam itself stands in error. May not be so PC of me to say that, but it’s just that simple!

But it’s not that simple.

Abraham embraced some form of polygamy-- and he’s considered the our father in faith. Jacob also practiced some form of polygamy too-- and he’s better known as Israel. In fact, Israel was name after him.

There’s no doubt from our Christian perspective, in light of Catholic revelation, that these things are morally wrong. And yet we see many of the ancient Isrealites, each themselves considered holy men in God’s eyes, practicing this.

You mentioned this ideal society where members of all other religions will have to pay a special tax for the “privilege” of living in peace.

Are you familiar with the case of Nicola Ghattas, the Orthodox Christian living in Beit Sahour?

 

[exoflare]

Are you familiar with the case of Nicola Ghattas, the Orthodox Christian living in Beit Sahour?

No.

 

[Ladys76]

---

 

[Damascus]

The OP is about:

Mohamed OR Jesus. Which one? Mr Ex Nillio seems to think it is not relevant.

On Post #42 Mr Ex Nillio takes a quote from Rodrigo Bivar and exoflare.

Rodrigos quote mentions the **“special” tax, subjugation, and the six year old wife of Mohamed. **Exoflares quote mentions the Polygamy, tax, and putting apostates to death.

(He later defends polygamy)

He then accuses these posters of not having looked at what Islam has to offer.

I am not sure why one needs address this in connection with those truthful charges.

I also fail to see how this helps address the OP. The OP is asking you to tell us all why you pick one or the other. The OP is not asking us to point out the benefits of both.
I think both Rodrigos and exoflares quotes are enough reason to say this is why Jesus is my choice. There are a zillion others but this is enough IMHO.

Then he procedes to tell us he is not a muslim. (which means nothing other than he is not of Muslim birth) No one asked him if he was a muslim. And it does not have anything to do with the quotes in this post.

Then he asks us if we are aware of what happens to Christians in Isreal under Jewish rule! Once again, no connection at all with these quotes or the OP. Jewish people are not even a factor in the OP Mohamed OR Jesus- why is mr ex nillio bringing them into this?

Remember again the points in Rodrigos and exoflares quotes-
Then he says MANY of the examples they raise could be applied to the Jewish authorities in Isreal too.

Hmmm. The funny thing is – he never proved that they were the same at all.

He only proves later that he spends a great deal of time dragging Isreal and the Jewish people into posts where they are not a subject of. This is a common tactic I have seen in some posters who deflect and draw attention from the truthful charges put on the table.

IE: subject: wife beaters or men who are not romantic which one?
I don’t like wife beaters its illegal and immoral and wrong
Wife beating is brutal unfair and criminal
Deflector: you have not given this wife beater a chance and tried to see what he has to offer
Sure, romantic is popular in the eyes of most but lets not forget that alcoholics have been nasty too! The same could be said for them!
But—this is not about alcoholics.
Deflector- Don’t you see how prejudiced you are? Now shut up and hear about all the bad alcoholics so you will forget all about wife beaters and get sidetracked.

Anyway, in post 48 he picks up steam and clearly shows his hidden agenda.
Since I see all he wants to do is talk about the Jewish people,
I ask a question about apostates (exoflare made a point there and he ignored it)
He takes advantage of this and brings in the OT Jewish people !
See post #63
**He even asks me “how do you reconcile passages like this in the Hewbrew Scriptures with our loving God within Christianity”? **

EASY- Because it was God condoning this and not ALLAH.

But, why would a Catholic ask me “how I can reconcile” God in the OT?

In post #53 he accuses me of hating Muslims. He shows no proof of this charge.

In post 54 he asks accuses me of asking him if he is in favor of having sex with children.

In post 59 he brings up the “intrinsically evil” stuff.

I never used those words. Why does he bring it up?

Later, note his response to exoflares in post #76- he mentions “ideal society” – Bingo!
Who coined this phrase people? I think you get the point here.

He is clever though. He makes a “mistake” in his quotes and apologizes.
This is only to give the appearance he is able to apologize.
On the other false charges he does not.
In Islam, you don’t have to tell the truth to a non believer.
In Christianity you do.
Tell the truth Mr Ex nillio.
What was post 53? The charge of me hating muslims?
First off, Are you really asking me if I hate muslims or Islam?
Which statements did I make that were false?

 

[exoflare]

You mentioned this ideal society where members of all other religions will have to pay a special tax for the “privilege” of living in peace.

Just for the record, I said that MUSLIMS are required by faith to believe this is the ideal society. Of course I’m going with common sense myself, that this is objectively a barbaric and backwards type of society.