Muhammed or...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Telling the truth is not mutually exclusive to having a dialogue with Muslims. One should be not ashamed to tell the truth, no matter how awful, in order to save someone from the Devil’s grasp. If you see a person who has erred, do you not help him from erring? Do you not point out his errors and lead him back to the truth? Or do you ‘dialogue’ him with sweet lies? Or skirt around the issues hoping he’ll take the hint.

I have been trying to point out the truth and have never backed down from expressing where I felt that Islam was wrong-- and even potentially evil in some cases.

Read my posts in this thread again. They’re certainly not flattering Islam when I actually do speak out against it.
Rodrigo Bivar:

No. In my view - acknowledging the problem is the first step to cure. If people deny they have a problem then they will never take the steps necessary to solve it. All the self-help groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, and drug addicts help groups know this. Islam is the problem - the world is better off without it. I’m sorry I don’t bandy words - life is short and there is so much to do.

Well I’m glad that you don’t bandy words-- and that you can so easilly tell around one billion people that the world is better off without their faith in it.

The problem with your analogy is that conversion to Christianity is not a 12-Step program that you rattle off to a person of another faith in order to intellectually bring them to their knees so to speak. In other words, it’s often a long and drawn out process which can take generations to brings about significant change.

Any critique of someone’s faith must be balanced with whatever positive aspects you can see in their faith-- searching for common grounds to agree upon all the while avoiding an extreme mischaracterization of their faith.

The point is that the faith of the Islamic people represent a wide range of personalities, mentalities and behaviors that simply cannot be dismissed so easilly under the banner of “better off without it”.

And, quite frankly, whenever I hear this, I’m essentially hearing that all the people associated with this faith are more or less a write-off in regards to engaging any kind of rational discourse with them-- something which is no different than the attitudes of slave owners towards “the ignorant negroes” that were once believed to be beyond reasoning with too.

There are many Muslims and Catholics who are deeply interested in living together peacefully even if the other side doesn’t agree with them theologically. History has shown that this can be done and that there are long periods in history where this has happened.

So whenever people make claims like the ones I’m hearing in this thread, claims which are totally one-sided and negative toward any chance of redeemable qualities being present in Islam, they make it all the more difficult for some to really make a positive difference in this world by connecting to Muslims thorugh any similarities present.

There’s no doubt in my mind that many would reject the Christian message even if it were preached to them from Christ Jesus himself (and only Christ as God truly knows for sure whether or not they will reject the message).

But, in regards to moderates who may be open to the Gospel message, the people who make claims like the ones I’m hearing in this thread – claims which are totally one-sided and negative toward any suggestion of redeemable qualities in Islam – actually prevent Muslims from entering the Christian faith precisely because of the harsh and unfair characterization contained within their ‘gospel’ message.

I could not help but think of a few people within this thread when I heard the readings today.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I don’t believe I have written off dialogue with any Muslim. I do seek discourse with Muslims, here and in other forums, and let us just say that we agree to disagree about our respective methods.

After years of debating Muslims I find that most non-Muslims do not understand Islam at all or at best have a very superficial understanding. Even most Muslims do not understand Islam at all and are frequently confounded by the truth presented - as most of them have been taught the sugar-coated version, uber-fawning version of Muhammad being the greatest guy who ever lived, the uswa hasana and al-insan al-kamil, who could do no wrong etc. When confronted by the Muslims’ own scripture and literature concerning Muhammad most of the them either get violent and abusive, or issue nonsensical apologetics. Faith is a difficult matter to shake. In a sense, it is as much an addiction as alcoholism, and I think my analogy is apt. You cannot convince a Muslim of the errors of his/her religion and the evil nature of his/her prophet without telling them the truth.

That is just one person’s view.

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I don’t believe I have written off dialogue with any Muslim. I do seek discourse with Muslims, here and in other forums, and let us just say that we agree to disagree about our respective methods.

After years of debating Muslims I find that most non-Muslims do not understand Islam at all or at best have a very superficial understanding. Even most Muslims do not understand Islam at all and are frequently confounded by the truth presented - as most of them have been taught the sugar-coated version, uber-fawning version of Muhammad being the greatest guy who ever lived, the uswa hasana and al-insan al-kamil, who could do no wrong etc. When confronted by the Muslims’ own scripture and literature concerning Muhammad most of the them either get violent and abusive, or issue nonsensical apologetics. Faith is a difficult matter to shake. In a sense, it is as much an addiction as alcoholism, and I think my analogy is apt. You cannot convince a Muslim of the errors of his/her religion and the evil nature of his/her prophet without telling them the truth.

That is just one person’s view.

Chau,
Rodrigo

But why would we speak so harshly about them and tell them that, in regards to their faith, the world is “better off without it”?

Think about it for a moment Rodrigo.

I’ve said nothing any different from you in regards to pointing out the potential evils within the Muslim faith. I’ve even clearly pointed out, according to Catholic teachings from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, how Islamic messianic expectations have the potential to lead Muslims toward the spirit of anti-Christ.

I’ve been pretty clear about this too.

And yet I’ve been blessed by a Muslim man in this thread, and you’ve apparently gathered no substantial response at all-- or, at least, you’ve apparently haven’t made much headway with the Muslims you’re interacting with.

I admit I could be wrong about the end result of your efforts so I do invite you to correct me if I’ve erred in this regard.

Nonetheless, my observation is that those who take the time to really understand Islam can (and do) lead Muslims toward true Christian worship. At the very least, a common respect can be (and has been) achieved-- and people of both faiths can live more peacefully with each other by drawing on each others similarities.

The fruit of this cooperation can be seen in the mutual cooperation of the Vatican and various Islamic leaders standing together against the pro-choice advocates within the UN for example. And, in my opinion anyway, Muslims exposed to the more forgiving Christian principles in western society have certainly softened their more violent teachings when compared to their Muslim brothers throughout the Middle East for example.

You can certainly approach this dialogue anyway you please. Obviously I can’t stop you from doing this.But my observation about people who dialogue with others is that they often seem to have the wrong mentality when doing it-- and it manifests as a kind of vendetta against the faith in question when the words spoken are not spoken out of love.

More often than not, the people who engage in these dialogues, even if they have a great deal of knowledge concerning the subject, still nonetheless have this kind of antagonistic attitude which stands out much more than their knowledge of the topic does.

The way you present the message is just as important as the knowledge you present-- and both can have a tremendous impact on how the listener receives the information.

I guess that’s all I have to say on this matter.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

You have your way and I have mine. There is more than one way to achieve the same means. I may be a prickly sort of person but I tell the truth, however unpalatable it is to Muslims. I’m like the preacher who rails from the pulpit against sinners and their sinful deeds, because sometimes forthright action is what is required.

Did not Jesus kick out the money lenders from the temple? Or did he speakly softly to them to ‘please vacate the premises’?

Secondly, I do not consider Muslims my audience. Rather, it is the Catholics here who are my audience as it was my Catholic friends who invited me here to dispel the misconceptions about Islam perpetrated by our Muslim members.

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You have your way and I have mine. There is more than one way to achieve the same means.

Yes. And there’s also more than one way to cause destruction too.
Proverbs 15:1:

A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

And some ways are better than others period. In fact, the Scriptures point out that there is a most excellent way…

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.

But the greatest of these is love.

Rodrigo Bivar:

I may be a prickly sort of person but I tell the truth, however unpalatable it is to Muslims. I’m like the preacher who rails from the pulpit against sinners and their sinful deeds, because sometimes forthright action is what is required.

Did not Jesus kick out the money lenders from the temple? Or did he speakly softly to them to ‘please vacate the premises’?

But Jesus was God-- and he specifically understood that the time was coming where he would fulfill the Law for others in order to break down the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles.

Secondly, I do not consider Muslims my audience.

Well…I can guarantee you that there’s at least a few Muslims here who are reading your words.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Rather, it is the Catholics here who are my audience as it was my Catholic friends who invited me here to dispel the misconceptions about Islam perpetrated by our Muslim members.

That’s all well and nice Rodrigo.

But I am curious about your success rate with converting Muslims over to Christianity.

Has your approach ever been succesful in leading people away from Islam? Or have they just retreated more into Islam when confronted by the truth which you so boldly speak?

Rodrigo:

Chau,
Rodrigo

Actually, I’m not finished yet Rodrigo.

Could you please join me in further conversation and answer the questions I’ve asked you above?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Like I said, I’m not here to convert Muslims. The measure of my success is that the members here will come to understand the true nature of Islam from the theological evidence I present.

But to answer your question: yes, to my knowledge I have converted several Muslims. I don’t think the softly softly approach will work.

As to my Jesus and the money lenders analogy - look at the moral of the story - don’t see it as if I had made the claim to be Jesus. If you don’t understand what Jesus was trying to achieve, what can I say?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Like I said, I’m not here to convert Muslims. The measure of my success is that the members here will come to understand the true nature of Islam from the theological evidence I present.

Are you a Christian?

Rodrigo:

But to answer your question: yes, to my knowledge I have converted several Muslims. I don’t think the softly softly approach will work.

How many?

Were you able to verify their conversion-- or were these all examples of Internet converisons?

Rodrigo:

As to my Jesus and the money lenders analogy - look at the moral of the story - don’t see it as if I had made the claim to be Jesus. If you don’t understand what Jesus was trying to achieve, what can I say?

I understand the moral of the story.

The moral was the people had perverted and misunderstood the intents of the law to the point that it has been nearly corrupted by those who were seeking financial gain from it.

Jesus, as true God and true man, knew that he was coming to fulfill the law-- so he gave them an urgent warning that they were not understanding the real message behind what the law was pointing toward (ie., his own coming).

Later he even refuted their thinking that their usage of the Scriptures was what would obtain eternal life for them…

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Am I wrong about this?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Rodrigo Bivar:

Like I said, I’m not here to convert Muslims. The measure of my success is that the members here will come to understand the true nature of Islam from the theological evidence I present.

Are you a Christian?

No.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Rodrigo Bivar:

But to answer your question: yes, to my knowledge I have converted several Muslims. I don’t think the softly softly approach will work.

How many?

Were you able to verify their conversion-- or were these all examples of Internet converisons?

A few in person, and a few that I know of from internet discussions – who debated vigorously, went away, and then came back as apostates.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Rodrigo Bivar:

As to my Jesus and the money lenders analogy - look at the moral of the story - don’t see it as if I had made the claim to be Jesus. If you don’t understand what Jesus was trying to achieve, what can I say?

I understand the moral of the story.

The moral was the people had perverted and misunderstood the intents of the law to the point that it has been nearly corrupted by those who were seeking financial gain from it.

Jesus, as true God and true man, knew that he was coming to fulfill the law-- so he gave them an urgent warning that they were not understanding the real message behind what the law was pointing toward (ie., his own coming).

Later he even refuted their thinking that their usage of the Scriptures was what would obtain eternal life for them

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Am I wrong about this?

Well, he could merely have told them that without scattering them from the temple, don’t you think?

Like I said: you have your way and I have my way. Even the Catholic Church has different approaches from time to time. Even your popes have different approaches – is there a necessity to label one pope right and another wrong for using different methods? I think not.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

No.

A few in person, and a few that I know of from internet discussions – who debated vigorously, went away, and then came back as apostates.

Well, he could merely have told them that without scattering them from the temple, don’t you think?

Like I said: you have your way and I have my way. Even the Catholic Church has different approaches from time to time. Even your popes have different approaches – is there a necessity to label one pope right and another wrong for using different methods? I think not.

I have a lot of thoughts about this response you gave, but my head is simply pounding right now. When I’m feeling better and my head is clearer tonight, I’ll respond further.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

No.

Hmmm…that’s interesting.

Why not?

Were you formerly Muslim?
Rodrigo Bivar:

A few in person, and a few that I know of from internet discussions – who debated vigorously, went away, and then came back as apostates.

Then I tip my hat to you.

But, assuming you’re not a Christian, does this mean that they, since they returned as apostates to Islam, are now atheists or agnostic or something else?
Rodrigo Bivar:

Well, he could merely have told them that without scattering them from the temple, don’t you think?

In this particular situation? No.

I don’t think the timing was correct for the Lord to make such a dramatic stance there until certain things were clearly presented.

For one, it was almost time for the Jewish Passover.

Secondly. he was directly in Jerusalem right before the Temple itself as he gave the message in which he refered back to Psalm 69:9.

Third, when asked, he specifically gave the following blunt reply…

Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.

And fourth, in preparation for the Passover feast, his message conveyed much more weight due to its association with Israel’s deliverance from the bondage of Egypt.

Ultimately, as far as I understand, in one sense, his words were pointing toward his own death and resurrection. In the other sense, his scattering of these people was somewhat prophetic of God’s anger scattering his chosen people throughout the world after the Romans would destroy the Temple.

There is actually more symbolism present as far as I can tell-- but, in short, that’s how I see it anyway.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Like I said: you have your way and I have my way. Even the Catholic Church has different approaches from time to time. Even your popes have different approaches – is there a necessity to label one pope right and another wrong for using different methods? I think not.

Admittedly harsh words have been spoken in the past. And sometimes, when the circumstances demand it, harsh words need to be spoken if this is what is required to warn someone else of danger.

But even then a balanced view is still desired, if not necessary, to have any real and substantial effect.

Admittedly, since you are not actually a Christian, I will not attempt to advise you on this further. It’s none of my business to judge those outside the church.

But if you do join some Christian church someday, I would hope that you could temper your knowledge so that it matches the message of love which is clearly presented as being more important than knolwedge. I hope that someday you find the most excellent way.

 

[exoflare]

It was requested that I consider getting back to this post not very long ago, and I think I will give it a try. More later…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Let’s continue this discussion further…

Muslim: Monotheistic – God (Allah) is recognized as the Creator. Christian: Monotheistic – God is recognized as the Creator.

Muslim: God is omnipotent, omniscient, immanent within His creation yet transcendent.
Christian: God is omnipotent, omniscient, immanent within His creation yet transcendent.

Muslim: God has a unique relationship with humans (master and servant).
Christian: God has a unique relationship with humans. (master and servant).

Muslim: God makes agreements or Covenants with humans.
Christianity: God makes agreements or Covenants with humans.

Muslim: Have similar eschatology (pertaining to the last days or the end of the world) – this world will come to an end someday and no-one knows when.
Christian: Have similar eschatology (pertaining to the last days or the end of the world) – this world will come to an end someday and no-one knows when.

Muslim: A figure referred to as Satan or Antichrist (dajjal) (a figure of evil) will be defeated at the end of the world.
Christian: A figure referred to as Antichrist or Satan (a figure of evil) will be defeated at the end of the world.

Muslim: After the world has ended, God will judge humans, based on their actions in compliance with a moral code, specified in the Covenant which God makes with us.
Christian: At the end of the world, God will judge humans based on their actions in compliance with a moral code, specified in the Covenant which God makes with us.

Muslim: This judgement will determine one’s eternal abode, heaven or hell (bliss or punishment).
Christian: This judgement will determine one’s eternal abode, heaven or hell (bliss or punishment).

Muslim: Human beings have a spirit (ruh) which is eternal, continuing its existence after our physical death. As to its origin, the Qur’an says, “When I [God] have fashioned him [Adam] (in due proportions) and breathed into him of My spirit . . .” [Qur’an 15:29]
Christian: Human beings have a soul which is eternal, continuing its existence after our physical death

Muslim: Humans have the ability (free will) to choose between good and evil (obeying or disobeying God, complying with the moral code of the Covenant or transgressing).
Christian: Humans have the ability (free will) to choose between good and evil (obeying or disobeying God, complying with the moral code of the Covenant or transgressing)

Muslim: Angels exist who are the servants, and sometimes messengers of God.
Christian: Angels exist who are the servants, and sometimes messengers of God

Muslim: Satan (shaitan) exists, as well as evil spirits who follow him; they are the enemies of humanity.
Christian: Satan exists, as well as evil spirits who follow him; they are the enemies of humanity.

Muslim: Divinely revealed scriptures exist which are the primary source of religious knowledge. The Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad and it is the final scripture given to man.
Christian: Divine scriptures exist which are the primary source of religious knowledge; revelation in this department is finished (there are no more biblical books yet to be revealed)

Muslim: Miracles occur on occasion.
Christian: Miracles occur on occasion.

Muslim: If a person errs or transgresses, God may forgive them, if they sincerely repent.
Christian: If a person errs or transgresses, God may forgive them, if they sincerely repent.

Muslim: Prophets brought spiritual instruction.
Christian: Prophets brought spiritual instruction.

Muslim: There are similarities between the Quranic and biblical version of many stories, such as Adam and Eve, Moses and the children of Israel, etc.
Christian: There are similarities between the Quranic and biblical version of many stories, such as Adam and Eve, Moses and the children of Israel, etc.

Muslim: At the time of the end of the world, Jesus Christ will come again.
Christian: At the time of the end of the world, Jesus Christ will come again.

Muslim: Jesus Christ was born to the virgin Mary.
Christian: Jesus Christ was born to the virgin Mary.

Now, if anyone has a good knowledge of both Islam and Christianity, then they’ll be able to explain the difference between these “surface features” and expand further as to where the two religions actually disagree.

I think that taking this kind of approach might enable those who are open to the Holy Spirit to be able to discern the truth in favor of Catholicism over Islam more peaceably.

 

[exoflare]

Let’s continue this discussion further…

Now, if anyone has a good knowledge of both Islam and Christianity, then they’ll be able to explain the difference between these “surface features” and expand further as to where the two religions actually disagree.

I think that taking this kind of approach might enable those who are open to the Holy Spirit to be able to discern the truth in favor of Catholicism over Islam more peaceably.

Look, here’s the problem. (actually one of many)

If you haven’t noticed it, Muslims DO NOT CARE what Christians really believe. As with everything else, they will only take the fictional beliefs that Mr. Pbuh labeled them with as gospel truth, despite all evidence to the contrary. You can tell them this, for example:
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Muslim: Monotheistic – God (Allah) is recognized as the Creator. Christian: Monotheistic – God is recognized as the Creator.

…but it makes absolutely NO difference to them! They do not want to live in reality - they want to live in the fantasyland that was set up for them by Mohammed. If Mo said Christians were polytheists, then by gosh they MUST be polytheists! Reality be damned… Read the last couple of nathann’s recent posts here if you don’t believe me.

This same principle actually applies to many of the points you tried to make in that same post, but I’m only illustrating this one for now to make a point. Guys, if we can’t see the plain truth of the Muslim mentality for what it is then we aren’t going to be much less deluded than the Muslims themselves.

 

[exoflare]

Just for reference, and to put all this in a better understanding, here is a link to the full text that the chart you posted just now came from.

muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.pdf#search=‘James%20Abdul%20Rahim%20Gaudet’

On the surface (at least by what is read from that chart), the author seems to be making a sincere effort to find common ground with Christians, and the reality of what constitutes orthodox Christianity. However, case in point to what I’ve been saying, read on a little further and you come across several gems like this one:

**[396] **

The Muslims are the true Christians, for they follow (or should follow) the **true teachings **of Christ, which did not

include the blasphemy that he was God or the Son of God in the literal sense. But there is a large body of men, who by
birth inherit such teaching nominally, but their hearts do not consent to it. Their real Muslim virtues (which from their point
of view they call Christian virtues) entitle them to be called Christians, and to receive the leading position which they at
present occupy in the world of men.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Look, here’s the problem. (actually one of many)

If you haven’t noticed it, Muslims DO NOT CARE what Christians really believe. As with everything else, they will only take the fictional beliefs that Mr. Pbuh labeled them with as gospel truth, despite all evidence to the contrary. You can tell them this, for example:

…but it makes absolutely NO difference to them! They do not want to live in reality - they want to live in the fantasyland that was set up for them by Mohammed. If Mo said Christians were polytheists, then by gosh they MUST be polytheists! Reality be damned… Read the last couple of nathann’s recent posts here if you don’t believe me.

This same principle actually applies to many of the points you tried to make in that same post, but I’m only illustrating this one for now to make a point. Guys, if we can’t see the plain truth of the Muslim mentality for what it is then we aren’t going to be much less deluded than the Muslims themselves.

Then how are we suspposed to convert Muslims to the Catholic faith exoflare?

You’re basically writing them off as being beyond reach-- and I don’t believe this to be true. In fact, it’s not true because Christ can reach them just as he reached out to you and me.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Just for reference, and to put all this in a better understanding, here is a link to the full text that the chart you posted just now came from.

muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.pdf#search=‘James%20Abdul%20Rahim%20Gaudet’

On the surface (at least by what is read from that chart), the author seems to be making a sincere effort to find common ground with Christians, and the reality of what constitutes orthodox Christianity. However, case in point to what I’ve been saying, read on a little further and you come across several gems like this one:

Yes. I have read the entire text before. I thought they did an excelent job of of contasting Christian and Muslim beliefs without being insulting about it.

That’s exactly why I posted their thoughts (including their names) as a re-starting point for discussion. But, of course, I also expect to see where they disagree too. In fact, they wouldn’t be true to their own faith if they didn’t, just as we wouldn’t be true to our faith if we didn’t explain our faith patiently to others.

What were you expecting?

Do you think these noble people are going to throw away around 1400 years of Muslim teachings and throw their hands up in the air and say, “Oh gosh! You’re right! I never saw it this way before!”

Think about what you’re asking them to do exoflare.

You wouldn’t do this as a Catholic. I know I wouldn’t do it either.

If someone is going to admit their faith is in error on some points, they are going to need to have these differences revealed to a level which they can digest on a spiritual level to the point that they honestly feel that their own faith is sincerely wrong on these key points.

If someone is going to effect a change in the life of a Muslim man in a more positive direction toward Christianity, then one had better be prepared to sit down patiently and discuss point-by-point exactly where we differ in order to discern why they believe what they believe so that we can bring them more into the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In addition to this, one had also better be prepared to accept that they might strongly disagree regardless of well explained our faith is-- and one should consider the possibility of accepting them as a friend even if they don’t agree with our faith.

Throwing insults at their faith is not going to change them in any way. In fact, they’re going to retreat further into their own theology whenever we do this-- effectively closing any chance of our speading the Gospel message to them via the Holy Spirit.

 

[exoflare]

Yes. I have read the entire text before. I thought they did an excelent job of of contasting Christian and Muslim beliefs without being insulting about it.

That’s exactly why I posted their thoughts (including their names) as a re-starting point for discussion. But, of course, I also expect to see where they disagree too. In fact, they wouldn’t be true to their own faith if they didn’t, just as we wouldn’t be true to our faith if we didn’t explain our faith patiently to others.

What were you expecting?

Like I said, they refuse to accept what “Christian” beliefs are in the first place! As you have seen already, the disagreements are not limited to beliefs - Muslims have to deny history itself to make their point! How is that conducive to any kind of dialogue?

Think about what a jerk I would be if I insisted without evidence, “Mohammed was actually a Christian, but his true teachings which were all somehow corrupted by the Caliph Uthman. Oh by the way you’re all polytheists!”

In this case, dialogue is impossible because in my head reality is always what I want it to be. Actual beliefs of Islam, or misunderstandings of them start to become irrelevant.

Do you think these noble people are going to throw away around 1400 years of Muslim teachings and throw their hands up in the air and say, “Oh gosh! You’re right! I never saw it this way before!”

No, I most certainly don’t. But that is not the point I’ve been trying to make. They are not “unreachable” as you’ve said, but I think you’re severely underestimating just how hard-hearted these people are. Each one who leaves Islam for Christianity is probably no less a miracle than the conversion of Paul (the guy they hate so much) himself.

 

[exoflare]

This is it in a nutshell… Well I forget who said it before in this thread or another one, but I think they nailed it - discussing theology with Muslims really is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

I’m convinced the only thing that will serve any use is to pray for them. The rosary is the best. Like I’ve said before, they are not unreachable, but it would take no less than an act of the supernatural to overcome all their mind programming.

In the mean time, don’t get me wrong it’s still not a complete waste of time to reply to Muslims on here. Falsehood and ignorance still must be dealt with help others who otherwise may resort to joining Islam in the future.

 

[Eden]

And the false teachings about what Christians believe in Islam is not the only impediment to conversion for a Muslim. Islam teaches that the punishment for Muslims who leave faith is death.

 

[pro_universal]

This is it in a nutshell… Well I forget who said it before in this thread or another one, but I think they nailed it - discussing theology with Muslims really is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

It’s so difficult, in fact, that you sometimes have to go to faithfreedom.com’s forums to ask how to deal with “the muslims” apparently.

I’m convinced the only thing that will serve any use is to pray for them. The rosary is the best. Like I’ve said before, they are not unreachable, but it would take no less than an act of the supernatural to overcome all their mind programming.

In the mean time, don’t get me wrong it’s still not a complete waste of time to reply to Muslims on here. Falsehood and ignorance still must be dealt with help others who otherwise may resort to joining Islam in the future.

Wait, I thought your method was to ignore and then insult Muslims?