Mulieris Dignitatem and Predestination

[lethalbean95]

Hi guys hows it going? I was reading some Papal Documents the other day and seemed to be confused by what is stated. I was wondering if anyone could clarify what is being said in Pope John Paul’s doucment “Mulieris Dignitatem”. Here are the passages “The particular union of the “Theotókos” with God - which fulfils in the most eminent manner the supernatural predestination to union with the Father WHICH IS GRANTED TO EVERY HUMAN BEING (filii in Filio) - is a pure grace and, as such, a gift of the Spirit.” Paragraph 15.
Heres another passage “The biblical teaching taken as a whole enables us to say that PREDESINATION CONCERNS ALL HUMAN PERSONS, MEN AND WOMEN, EACH AND EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION.” Paragraph 44.

Can someone explain what is being said here . Isnt saying that predestination concerns or is granted to all men against catholic teaching. I dont know im just confused. Thanks guys.

 

[Nelka]

 

[Cathoholic]

Lethalbean95.

God is OUTSIDE of time.

Time is a creation.

God knows our destiny before we are brought into our existence by our mothers and fathers (God Himself simultaneously creates our soul at that time but God saw our destiny before this of course as He is outside of time, is all-knowing, etc.).

In addition to all of this, God predestines no one to Hell.

But God ALSO allows us to have free will.

This of course raises the question of HOW can predestination AND free will coexist?

We don’t know. This is a mystery.

But everyone in a sense has a destiny (predestination) by definition.

God already knows that destiny. Aside from a special revelation from God, we do not.

We have a moral certainty but not an absolute metaphysical certainty concerning our destinies.

Does this help, or were you looking for something else?

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[jcrichton]

Hi guys hows it going? I was reading some Papal Documents the other day and seemed to be confused by what is stated. I was wondering if anyone could clarify what is being said in Pope John Paul’s doucment “Mulieris Dignitatem”. Here are the passages “The particular union of the “Theotókos” with God - which fulfils in the most eminent manner the supernatural predestination to union with the Father WHICH IS GRANTED TO EVERY HUMAN BEING (filii in Filio) - is a pure grace and, as such, a gift of the Spirit.” Paragraph 15.
Heres another passage “The biblical teaching taken as a whole enables us to say that PREDESINATION CONCERNS ALL HUMAN PERSONS, MEN AND WOMEN, EACH AND EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION.” Paragraph 44.

Can someone explain what is being said here ������. Isnt saying that predestination concerns or is granted to all men against catholic teaching. I dont know im just confused. Thanks guys.

Hi!
The Catholic view of predestination is that we (man) are predestined for Salvation in Christ:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: 4** As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world**, that we should be** holy and unspotted in his sight **in charity. 5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: 6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8 Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him, 10 In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him. 11 In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will. 12 That we may be unto the praise of his glory, we who before hoped Christ: 13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14)

Clearly, predestination is not carte blanche; it is fully dependent upon Christ’s Sacrifice and our acceptance of Christ as our Lord and Savior:

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (St. John 1:10-13)

19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world,** and men loved darkness rather than the light**: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God. (St. John 3:19-21)

While some wishful thinkers want predestination to mean that all are saved and still others believe that only they are saved while the rest are predestined to damnation, God has not Revealed any such judgment since He wants all to be Saved–but through His Salvific Plan, not through rampant disregard of His Will:

29 And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse? 30 Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31** Cast away from you all your transgressions**, by which you have transgressed, and make to yourselves a new heart, and a new spirit: and why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I desire not the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God, return ye and live. (Ezekiel 18:29-32)

God has predestined man to Salvation; yet, not all men are willing to subject their wills to God’s.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[lethalbean95]

Lethalbean95.

God is OUTSIDE of time.

Time is a creation.

God knows our destiny before we are brought into our existence by our mothers and fathers (God Himself simultaneously creates our soul at that time but God saw our destiny before this of course as He is outside of time, is all-knowing, etc.).

In addition to all of this, God predestines no one to Hell.

But God ALSO allows us to have free will.

This of course raises the question of HOW can predestination AND free will coexist?

We don’t know. This is a mystery.

But everyone in a sense has a destiny (predestination) by definition.

God already knows that destiny. Aside from a special revelation from God, we do not.

We have a moral certainty but not an absolute metaphysical certainty concerning our destinies.

Does this help, or were you looking for something else?

God bless.

Cathoholic

Im just concerned with what is said. How can predestined union with the father being granted to every human being. To me what sounds like is being said is everyone is predestined to the Beatific Vision. Thats what union with the Father is no? Destination and Predestination are two different things. Predestinations seems to indicate that something will infallibly happen.

 

[jcrichton]

Im just concerned with what is said. How can predestined union with the father being granted to every human being. To me what sounds like is being said is everyone is predestined to the Beatific Vision. Thats what union with the Father is no? Destination and Predestination are two different things. Predestinations seems to indicate that something will infallibly happen.

Hi!
…only in the sense that it is Willed by God that all shall be Saved. However, free will comes into play and man’s determination to accept or reject God’s Will for him is a determining factor.

As far as God is concerned, I am predestined, in Christ, to Salvation and Eternal Life in God’s Presence; however, by my own choosing, I can determine to do everything in my power to thwart God’s Salvific Plan by engaging in unrighteous behavior; hence, refusing to enter into God’s Covenant and Plan.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Ron_Conte]

COUNCIL OF QUIERSY 853

Redemption and Grace
[Denzinger 316]
Chap. 1. Omnipotent God created man noble without sin with a free will, and he whom He wished to remain in the sanctity of justice, He placed in Paradise. Man using his free will badly sinned and fell, and became the “mass of perdition” of the entire human race.

The just and good God, however, chose from this same mass of perdition according to His foreknowledge those whom through grace He predestined to life Rom. 8:29 ff.; Eph. 1:11], and He predestined for these eternal life; the others, whom by the judgment of justice he left in the mass of perdition, however, He knew would perish, but He did not predestine that they would perish, because He is just; however, He predestined eternal punishment for them.

And on account of this we speak of only one predestination of God, which pertains either to the gift of grace or to the retribution of justice.

 

[lethalbean95]

COUNCIL OF QUIERSY 853

Redemption and Grace
[Denzinger 316]
Chap. 1. Omnipotent God created man noble without sin with a free will, and he whom He wished to remain in the sanctity of justice, He placed in Paradise. Man using his free will badly sinned and fell, and became the “mass of perdition” of the entire human race.

The just and good God, however, chose from this same mass of perdition according to His foreknowledge those whom through grace He predestined to life Rom. 8:29 ff.; Eph. 1:11], and He predestined for these eternal life; the others, whom by the judgment of justice he left in the mass of perdition, however, He knew would perish, but He did not predestine that they would perish, because He is just; however, He predestined eternal punishment for them.

And on account of this we speak of only one predestination of God, which pertains either to the gift of grace or to the retribution of justice.

So then everyone has predestined union with the father? Everyone is predestined to the Beatific Vision? I guess Im not seeing how this answers the question or explains the above statements.

 

[Nita]

Hi guys hows it going? I was reading some Papal Documents the other day and seemed to be confused by what is stated. I was wondering if anyone could clarify what is being said in Pope John Paul’s doucment “Mulieris Dignitatem”. Here are the passages “The particular union of the “Theotókos” with God - which fulfils in the most eminent manner the supernatural predestination to union with the Father WHICH IS GRANTED TO EVERY HUMAN BEING (filii in Filio) - is a pure grace and, as such, a gift of the Spirit.” Paragraph 15.

The word “granted” is the key. It is meant in sense of “offered to us”. God “grants” the grace of union with the Father to all mankind as a “gift”, but each individual must decide whether or not to accept it and/or retain it. (I included “or” because many receive the grace in infant Baptism before they can make a personal choice).

God “predestines” that all who choose, before death, to accept His grace of union (His “gift of the Spirit”), will spend eternity in union with Him in heaven.

Heres another passage "The biblical teaching taken as a whole enables us to say that PREDESINATION CONCERNS ALL HUMAN PERSONS, MEN AND WOMEN, EACH AND EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION’

.The same as above. Several of the surrounding paragraphs address the equality of man and woman. I think that is why the phrase “man and woman” was used here instead of “human being” as in your previous encyclical quote.

 

[Nita]

So then everyone has predestined union with the father? Everyone is predestined to the Beatific Vision? I guess Im not seeing how this answers the question or explains the above statements.

No, not everyone is predestined to the Beatific Vision. The grace to experience the Beatific Vision is gramted/offered to all, but that doesn’t mean all will accept and remain in that state of grace.

 

[Nita]

I just wanted to add that predestination is one of the mysteries of our faith. The Church has rebutted errors when they arose, but it is not a topic that has been greatly expounded upom in our Catechisms — probably because it is such a mystery.

As far as I could find, predestination is mentioned briefly in only a four spots in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

2012 “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he **fore knew **he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. and those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

2782 We can adore the Father because he has caused us to be reborn to his life by adopting us as his children in his only Son: by Baptism, he incorporates us into the Body of his Christ; through the anointing of his Spirit who flows from the head to the members, he makes us other "Christs."God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called “Christs.” The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace, says first of all, “Father!” because he has now begun to be a son. (St. Cyril of Jerusalem)

 

[Nita]

No, not everyone is predestined to the Beatific Vision. The grace to experience the Beatific Vision is granted/offered/available to all, but that doesn’t mean all will accept and remain in that state of grace.

 

[lethalbean95]

I just wanted to add that predestination is one of the mysteries of our faith. The Church has rebutted errors when they arose, but it is not a topic that has been greatly expounded upom in our Catechisms — probably because it is such a mystery.

As far as I could find, predestination is mentioned briefly in only a four spots in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

2012 “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he **fore knew **he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. and those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

2782 We can adore the Father because he has caused us to be reborn to his life by adopting us as his children in his only Son: by Baptism, he incorporates us into the Body of his Christ; through the anointing of his Spirit who flows from the head to the members, he makes us other "Christs."God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called “Christs.” The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace, says first of all, “Father!” because he has now begun to be a son. (St. Cyril of Jerusalem)

Was Judas then also sort of Predestined to Salvation in Christ or union with the Father. Thanks for you posts by the way they did clear up a little bit. Predesitination is sort of a mystery. I just dont know the Catholic “definitions” of Predestination.

 

[lethalbean95]

I just wanted to add that predestination is one of the mysteries of our faith. The Church has rebutted errors when they arose, but it is not a topic that has been greatly expounded upom in our Catechisms — probably because it is such a mystery.

As far as I could find, predestination is mentioned briefly in only a four spots in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

2012 “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he **fore knew **he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. and those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

2782 We can adore the Father because he has caused us to be reborn to his life by adopting us as his children in his only Son: by Baptism, he incorporates us into the Body of his Christ; through the anointing of his Spirit who flows from the head to the members, he makes us other "Christs."God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called “Christs.” The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace, says first of all, “Father!” because he has now begun to be a son. (St. Cyril of Jerusalem)

Obviously Judas betrayed Jesus. Is what your saying that someone how within that predestination, Judas was still able to apply his free will.

 

[jcrichton]

Was Judas then also sort of Predestined to Salvation in Christ or union with the Father. Thanks for you posts by the way they did clear up a little bit. Predesitination is sort of a mystery. I just dont know the Catholic “definitions” of Predestination.

Hi!
I believe that Judas is a special case altogether–I cannot recall the Church having any definitive Teachings on him.

My personal understanding is that Judas was chosen to betray Jesus, as part of the Divine Salvific Plan, and God’s Mercy would make accommodation for the son of perdition:

12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled. (St. John 17:12)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Nita]

Was Judas then also sort of Predestined to Salvation in Christ or union with the Father. Thanks for you posts by the way they did clear up a little bit. Predesitination is sort of a mystery. I just dont know the Catholic “definitions” of Predestination.

Obviously Judas betrayed Jesus. Is what your saying that someone how within that predestination, Judas was still able to apply his free will.

God makes present sufficient grace for salvation for everyone - but that is not predestination to heaven.

IF Judas is in hell, then “No”, Judas was never predestined to heaven or union with the Father. God’s predestination to heaven is sure/certain. If God predestined Judas to salvation, then Judas would definitely be in heaven. Anything God “predestines” is certain.
(But keep in mind, we don’t know whether Judas is in heaven or hell. We do not know whether he repented prior to dying.)

God predestines no one to hell - that is, He does not in some way force the person to be evil or make it impossible for him to be any different.
What God has “predestined” in connection with the wicked is that those who willingly persist to death in that state will receive the just punishment of hell.

Everyone has free will - right up until they die, and afterward. That’s part of the human nature God created for us. Those who are predestined to heaven have free will, and those who end up in hell have free will.

 

[Nita]

For any who might like to do some more reading about Catholic teaching on predestination.

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
Catholic Encyclopedia entry on “Predestination”:

patristica.net/denzinger/#n300
Scroll down to paragraph #320
Canons from the Council of Valence on Predestination.
Paragraphs 321 and 322 deal with those who go to hell.

 

[Cathoholic]

How can predestined union with the father being granted to every human being.

I think you are asking:

"How can predestined union with the father being granted to every human being. Yet some people wind up in Hell?

First of all, there is a difference between “union” with the Father, and going before Him in judgment.

Where did you get that question from leathalbean95? Are you quoting something the Church has said.

I’d like to see it in a fuller context.

Anyway, this is part of the reason WHY I said predestination and free will coexisting is a mystery.

BOTH free will AND predestination are taught.

We believe them both (but we do not believe in life being “God’s puppet show”, or “double predestination”).

So we affirm BOTH predestination AND free will.

But how they work, how they co-exist, I will not be able to tell you in this life.

 

[lethalbean95]

I think you are asking:

"How can predestined union with the father being granted to every human being. Yet some people wind up in Hell?

First of all, there is a difference between “union” with the Father, and going before Him in judgment.

Where did you get that question from leathalbean95? Are you quoting something the Church has said.

I’d like to see it in a fuller context.

Anyway, this is part of the reason WHY I said predestination and free will coexisting is a mystery.

BOTH free will AND predestination are taught.

We believe them both (but we do not believe in life being “God’s puppet show”, or “double predestination”).

So we affirm BOTH predestination AND free will.

But how they work, how they co-exist, I will not be able to tell you in this life.

I am forming a question from what John Paul II stated in his encyclical “Mulieris Dignitatem.” From what I understand Predestination Indicates that something will happen INFALLIBLY. Hence why I asked what John Paul II meant when he talked about predestined union to the Father “being granted to every human being”. I am open to other definitions of Predestination. But it sounds like hes says that everyone is predestined to Heaven as in everyone is SAVED. I open to being corrected or for further understanding. What exactly do you mean by “going before Him in judgement.” That doesnt seem like a union at al. I dont know im not sure.

 

[Mintaka]

Here’s what Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary had to say about predestination:

"PREDESTINATION. In the widest sense it is every eternal decision of God; in a narrower sense it is the supernatural final destination of rational creatures; and in the strictest sense it is God’s eternal decision to assume certain rational creatures into heavenly glory. Predestination implies an act of the divine intellect and of the divine will. The first is foreknowledge, the second is predestination.

According to its efficacy in time, predestination is distinguished as incomplete or complete depending on whether it is to grace only or also to glory. Complete predestination is the divine preparation of grace in the present life and of glory in the life to come.

This doctrine is proposed by the ordinary and universal teaching of the Church as a truth of revelation. The reality of predestination is clearly attested by St. Paul: “They are the ones he chose especially long ago and intended to become true images of the Son, so that his Son, might be the eldest of many brothers. He called those he intended for this; those he called he justified and with those he justified he shared his glory.” (Romans 8:29-30). All elements of complete predestination are given: the activity of God’s mind and will, and the principal stages of its realization in time.

The main difficulty in the doctrine of predestination is whether God’s eternal decision has been taken with or without consideration of human freedom. Catholic teaching holds that predestination by God does not deny the human free will. Numerous theories have been offered on how to reconcile the two, but all admit with St. Paul (Romans 11:33) that predestination is an unfathomable mystery. (Etym. Latin praedestinatio, a determining beforehand.)

Everyone in the human race is called to union with the Father.

The Father gives everyone grace to follow His call.

So everyone receives incomplete predestination.

However… sinning humans who are not contrite about their sins, and who do not wish to love the Father, are not going to be forced to share eternal joy. God respects their final decisions in this life because He respects the free will that He gave each human soul, and He loves us too much to force us to be His puppets.

On the other hand, God gives the repentant sinner every help in following that tiny spark of choosing to love Him and hate sin. If humans cooperate even the tiniest bit in their final decisions and final acts of will on this Earth, they actually get to achieve union with the Father, which is “glory.” And that is complete predestination.