Multi-Culture Mass... Had a blast...

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What then was the point of including it in the Vatican 2 documents? What about Veterum Sapientia? What about Canon 249?
Those are issues that need to be addressed on a large scale within the Church and Her liturgies. Attacking a one time event that the OP found spiritually fulfilling is not going to solve anything.
Canon 249 has to do with priestly formation. Priestly formation has NOTHING to do with the OP or the Mass in question. The OP is not a seminary rector nor was this a Mass for seminarians.
Veterum Sapientia also states priests are to learn Greek. Where is all the outrage that not enough priests know Greek?
Should we continue to ignore or to mock what the Church says and then just use sarcasm and cynicism and self-serving excuses whenever the issue comes up? :mad:
No one was mocking or ignoring what the Church says. What essentially happened was someone said, “I had a game winning single!” And many people’s response was, “Why didn’t you hit a home run?”

The OP went to a Mass that they found spiritually fulfilling. Then a group of posters decided to play, “Guess how many Church documents I know…”
 
The OP went to a Mass that they found spiritually fulfilling. Then a group of posters decided to play
Again with due respect, the OP titled the thread with a “Had a blast…” I don’t think it requires a psychologist to tell us that on a serious forum dealing with the liturgy of the Church the title itself is at least somewhat provocative.

If you want to look at it as a game, then okay, cheer all you want if your side wins. But remember there is a losing side whose adrenalin you might have just aroused to the point where your cheer may have become just short-lived.

I’ll allow you the last word and move on.
 
this is from your post. and this is what i have been saying. they can use the vernacular, and it even has the approval of the Apostolic See. so yes, they have every right and everything they do has approval. so i don’t know what you are protesting about. the language used is simple enought to understand that Latin is not mandatory.
I’ve seen a lot of decrees over the years — accompanied by Protocol numbers from the Holy See. I have never seen a decree that says how much vernacular is to be used in my country.
 
It gives a common voice in the sense that now everyone is limited in knowing what’s going on…
Also limited in that it can’t and won’t change as do most vernaculars. And whose fault is it for not knowing what’s going on? If it takes a little time to learn at least some of the Church’s official language, isn’t it worth it not to have to place all your faith into imprecise translations?
 
Also limited in that it can’t and won’t change as do most vernaculars. And whose fault is it for not knowing what’s going on? If it takes a little time to learn at least some of the Church’s official language, isn’t it worth it not to have to place all your faith into and suffer because of imprecise translations? The Tower of Babel passage was put into the Bible for a reason.
And yet the most noticeable change at Pentecost is that the disciples could speak to the strangers each in his own language.
 
And yet the most noticeable change at Pentecost is that the disciples could speak to the strangers each in his own language.
No one said the vernacular isn’t good for missionary work. 🙂

But mathematicians, physicists, physicians, musicians, chemists, biologists, engineers, lawyers, etc. all have their own unifying languages/terminologies/symbols in which they “speak.” Why not Catholics?
 
And yet the most noticeable change at Pentecost is that the disciples could speak to the strangers each in his own language.
But, as ProVobis pointed out, this was more along the lines of evangelization. It was not liturgy. Again, Latin provides these multi-lingual liturgies with a common language and a common voice.
 
No one said the vernacular isn’t good for missionary work. 🙂

But mathematicians, physicists, physicians, musicians, chemists, biologists, engineers, lawyers, etc. all have their own unifying languages/terminologies/symbols in which they “speak.” Why not Catholics?
Because that would be too Catholic.

:rolleyes:
 
The bottom line is that Vatican 2 absolutely never called for the complete abolition of Latin in any liturgy.

While bishops do indeed have ‘authority’, bishops can also err. Remember all those happy Arian bishops in the 4th century? They had the authority to lead their people–and they led them into error. Maybe with the best of intentions, but they did lead them into error. Bishops are not protected infallibly from teaching error; that’s one reason why the vocation of a bishop is so perilous. One parish priest who teaches heresy affects only his parishoners; a bishop teaching heresy affects his whole diocese and further, because he is an authority, puts the people in the position of having to disobey when he does teach heresy.

Not, of course, that I am accusing any bishop of teaching heresy and I am certainly not saying that any bishop who permits Masses without a ‘scrap’ of Latin is teaching heresy. Over the last 40 years bishops did their best in a difficult situation. Their understanding is certainly I believe much better now than it was then. There were some very unfortunate results from those who misunderstood the documents of Vatican 2 in the ‘earlier’ years.

But on reading the documents it is obvious that Latin was meant to be retained in the OF for several prayers. This does not ‘detract’ from the vernacular. It is a unifying force in that no matter whether a person’s ‘vernacular’ is English, French, Spanish, German, Croatian, Swahili, Korean, Tagalog, etc., there will be those Latin prayers which will be exactly the SAME. So a person speaking any of the above languages and more will be joining in ONE language (Latin) at those few prayers.

If the Church ever decided to make its official language Greek and asked for the prayers now in Latin to be in Greek, I would gladly learn the Greek. If they wanted the prayers always to be in English, I’d say them in English. if they wanted them in Chinese, I’d say them in Chinese. Whatever the Church determines to be the proper and appropriate language for any prayer I will gladly say and do. It does not ‘have to be’ Latin for me to obey; but since it currently IS Latin, then Latin is what I will say for the prayers determined to be in Latin.
 
The bottom line is that Vatican 2 absolutely never called for the complete abolition of Latin in any liturgy.

While bishops do indeed have ‘authority’, bishops can also err. Remember all those happy Arian bishops in the 4th century? They had the authority to lead their people–and they led them into error. Maybe with the best of intentions, but they did lead them into error. Bishops are not protected infallibly from teaching error; that’s one reason why the vocation of a bishop is so perilous. One parish priest who teaches heresy affects only his parishoners; a bishop teaching heresy affects his whole diocese and further, because he is an authority, puts the people in the position of having to disobey when he does teach heresy.

Not, of course, that I am accusing any bishop of teaching heresy and I am certainly not saying that any bishop who permits Masses without a ‘scrap’ of Latin is teaching heresy. Over the last 40 years bishops did their best in a difficult situation. Their understanding is certainly I believe much better now than it was then. There were some very unfortunate results from those who misunderstood the documents of Vatican 2 in the ‘earlier’ years.

But on reading the documents it is obvious that Latin was meant to be retained in the OF for several prayers. This does not ‘detract’ from the vernacular. It is a unifying force in that no matter whether a person’s ‘vernacular’ is English, French, Spanish, German, Croatian, Swahili, Korean, Tagalog, etc., there will be those Latin prayers which will be exactly the SAME. So a person speaking any of the above languages and more will be joining in ONE language (Latin) at those few prayers.

If the Church ever decided to make its official language Greek and asked for the prayers now in Latin to be in Greek, I would gladly learn the Greek. If they wanted the prayers always to be in English, I’d say them in English. if they wanted them in Chinese, I’d say them in Chinese. Whatever the Church determines to be the proper and appropriate language for any prayer I will gladly say and do. It does not ‘have to be’ Latin for me to obey; but since it currently IS Latin, then Latin is what I will say for the prayers determined to be in Latin.
Great points! 👍
 
Again with due respect, the OP titled the thread with a “Had a blast…” I don’t think it requires a psychologist to tell us that on a serious forum dealing with the liturgy of the Church the title itself is at least somewhat provocative.
And with due respect I would offer that this is not a “serious forum” but rather a web forum of Catholics discussing liturgy. A “serious forum” would involve much more complex issues than the usual plethora of “Is this an abuse?” threads…

“Had a blast” is simply an expression. When reading the post its perfectly clear what the OP is trying to communicate and the OP showed zero disrespect for Mass.
If you want to look at it as a game, then okay, cheer all you want if your side wins. But remember there is a losing side whose adrenalin you might have just aroused to the point where your cheer may have become just short-lived.
This is exactly the problem. This thread was not supposed to be about a debate of the use of Latin in liturgy nor was it an attempt to address any liturgical abuses that are taking place anywhere else.
 
And with due respect I would offer that this is not a “serious forum” but rather a web forum of Catholics discussing liturgy. A “serious forum” would involve much more complex issues than the usual plethora of “Is this an abuse?” threads…

“Had a blast” is simply an expression. When reading the post its perfectly clear what the OP is trying to communicate and the OP showed zero disrespect for Mass.

This is exactly the problem. This thread was not supposed to be about a debate of the use of Latin in liturgy nor was it an attempt to address any liturgical abuses that are taking place anywhere else.
👍👍
 
“Had a blast” is simply an expression. When reading the post its perfectly clear what the OP is trying to communicate and the OP showed zero disrespect for Mass.
Well, apparently some of us didn’t and don’t see it that way. People get turned on or turned off by subject lines. That expression belongs on facebook, not in even half-serious liturgical discussions.
 
Well, apparently some of us didn’t and don’t see it that way. That expression belongs on facebook, not in even half-serious liturgical discussions.
That is true. I can have a blast at the celebration after the Mass because I got to experience other cultures, but, certainly not at the Mass. You have a blast at football games, Spurs games, Longhorns games, Duran Duran concerts, a family reunion or watching a parade. But, certainly not at Mass.

We tend to forget that during the Mass, the sacred mysteries of our salvation unfold before us. We are made present at Calvary. We are just as much there as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. Joseph and Mary Magdalene. For them, it was not a multicultural experience. It was the moment in salvation history.
 
This is from Father John Dietzen’s column, Question Corner. It hasn’t been posted online yet, but since all of Father Dietzen’s other columns are online, I’m sure this column will be, too. It just came out last week.

The column is about Canon Law. The quote that I am posting is preceded by a description of the history of Canon Law.

*"I should warn anyone who is considering buying it, however, that while it is generally easy to read, the code is far from simple to apply correctly. It compacts into 1,752 brief canons the legal experience of hundreds of years, and like any tightly-written legal documents is highly complex.

Canons interrelate broadly with each other. Innocent-sounding phrases that one might easily pass over can be crucial for a right understanding and interpretation of the law. There is a reason why men and women spend years of study and training to properly apply the code in the daily life of Catholic people.

Canon law is not in itself a document to teach Catholic dogmas. Nevertheless it must obviously be based on Catholic doctrine. One reason canon law needs occasional revision, therefore, is that Catholic doctrine itself develops over the years.

The Code of Canon Law can be enlightening and interesting reading (if one enjoys that sort of thing). Just be aware of the limitations. A careful, serious reading of canon law does not make one a canon lawyer any more than a reading of the Internal Revenue Code makes one an expert on income tax."*

end of quote.

I have often said on these forums that it is not a good thing for laymen who are untrained to read and interpret the documents and give an impression that they are just as well-qualified to read them as the priests and bishops and indeed, are qualified to challenge a priest or bishop.

My dear bishop is a Canon Lawyer with a doctoral degree in Canon Law. He knows and understands the various documents of the Catholic Church. With all due respect to the members of CAF who take an interest in church documents and claim to understand them perfectly, I prefer to follow my bishop, who is not only called and ordained by the Lord Jesus to lead His Church here on earth, but is also thoroughly educated in the documents, and has had decades of experience leading real-life Catholics and parishes.

I personally think this is where the amateur canon enthusiasts are lacking. They may have mastered the legal aspects of the documents. But there is a human factor that they are not experienced and knowledgeable about and have not mastered. This is the same “human factor” that allowed Jesus to know when it was appropriate to break various traditional Sabbath rules and when the rules must be kept. E.g., Jesus broke Jewish law to heal people. But He kept many other Jewish laws and in fact, told us that He didn’t come to abolish the Law, but fulfil it.

This “human factor” is probably something in the various documents that even the most devoted laystudent is not aware of or cognizant of, and this “something” allows the bishops to set aside the rules for the sake of a higher good. I think this “something” is a charism from the Holy Spirit, a “priestly instinct,” or a “father’s love” or a “shepherding gift” that helps a priest or bishop to know what is the best way to lead his flock.

Those who are not priests do not have this charism, and to try to act as a priest without it may have negative consequences for the Church.

I think that a priest can use this “shepherding” charism to appoint laypeople to advise him in regards to music, liturgy, etc. When he does this, these people are protected from abusing the documents by the priest’s or bishop’s charism, and they will make wise decisions that the rest of us in the Church may safely abide by.

But when laypeople appoint themselves to read and interpret the documents, I fear that they are no longer protected, and that in their zeal to apply documents to real-life Church situations, these self-appointed liturgists may blunder.

I’m thinking that there were very good reasons why the archbishop chose to allow a “multi-cultural Mass,” even though it is not the norm. There may be racial tensions in his city, or powerful gangs who are in a power struggle with the Church for the control of various ethnic groups, or even terrorist threats. The archbishop may have been told by the Holy Spirit that this unique Mass without Latin would ease those tensions and help restore the confidence of Christians in Jesus and in their Church.

I am confident that the Lord Jesus has given me these wise men, His apostles, to lead me and the Church into righteousness, and that by following them, even if they appear to go against the “rules” of the Church, as long as they are not leading into obvious sin, I will be blameless. OTOH, I fear that Catholics who choose to disregard or undermine the work of the bishops are walking on very thin ice indeed.

Please keep an eye out online for Father Dietzen’s excellent column. I just googled his name. His website is jjdietzen@aol.com if anyone cares to contact him.
Great post! A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.
And then again, it seems as some here have such an innate desire to be “right”, that they would probably argue face to face with the Pope.

Holy Father: “Thank God, for this beautiful blue sea.”

Armchair apologist: “With all due respect Holy Father, the sea is more green than blue.”

Makes me wonder how much joy and peace, these people derive from Catholicism.
 
Great post! A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.
And then again, it seems as some here have such an innate desire to be “right”, that they would probably argue face to face with the Pope.

Holy Father: “Thank God, for this beautiful blue sea.”

Armchair apologist: “With all due respect Holy Father, the sea is more green than blue.”

Makes me wonder how much joy and peace, these people derive from Catholicism.
There is no need to make fun of those of us who actually take the documents seriously. Unfortunately, there have been not a few occasions when even those in authoritative leadership, whether at the parochial or at the diocesan level, have made decisions that are not always in line with what the authoritative documents of the Holy See say.

Those of us who have legitimate concerns should not be ridiculed. With all due respect, unless you have actually been out in the trenches trying to plan liturgies and ensuring that they conform to the norms and rubrics of the Church, please do not refer to those of us who have done so as armchair anything.
 
Reading this thread reminded me of something that the late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus wrote back in April 2008 in the aftermath of the Papal Mass in Washington, DC. His words still ring with a lot of truth, even today:
The Thursday Mass at Nationals Park introduced the Holy Father to aspects of the aesthetic suffering endured by the faithful in America. The background notes we have been supplied are not specific about who, for instance, is to blame for the choice of music. The whole thing was overweeningly, preeningly multicultural. In his words of welcome to the pope, Archbishop Wuerl of Washington noted the many nations, languages, ethnicities of the Church in America, indicating that there are also Catholics here in America who trace their lineage to Europe. Well yes, there are a few.
In the response to our EWTN coverage, we received hundreds of complaints about the over-the-top stretch to be multicultural, along with some complaints by those were offended by our mentioning it. It’s hard to win on this score. And I have to remind myself that even mild criticisms of the way the Holy Father’s visit is being handled are taken amiss by people for whom even the chance to see the pope from a distance is one of the great moments of their lives. When over the years one has been present at papal events beyond numbering, one inevitably develops a measure of critical distance in which even mildly critical comments can clash with the intense piety of many of the Catholic faithful. Anything short of all-Wow!-all-the-time is taken as a sign of insufficient enthusiasm. Raymond Arroyo and I have multiple opportunities to remind one another of this dynamic…
Of course nothing can diminish, never mind negate, the astonishment of the Real Presence of Christ in the Mass, but it must be admitted that the mish-mash of music and liturgical practices putatively representing the “other” of multiculturalism did vigorously compete with the central reality. I offered an observation or two on this in the course of our EWTN coverage, provoking the response that the people in the stadium were obviously enjoying themselves and we mustn’t try to impose our elitist musical and liturgical criteria. Ouch. The point I was making is that **Benedict has written very specifically over the years about the distortion of the dynamics of worship when attention is focused on “our wonderful selves” rather than on the glory of God. He has also stressed the importance of renewing commitment to and continuity in the tradition of sacred music, including Gregorian chant, a tradition almost entirely absent from the stadium Mass. So the point of the commentary on that Mass is that it is remarkable that, on matters about which Benedict has been so emphatic, his views were so egregiously ignored or defied. **
Both the planners of the DC Mass and the Mass reported by the OP had the best of intentions. However, this was not necessarily the right way of doing it. Like Fr. Neuhaus, I and others who share my viewpoint (to a certain degree) have been villified for expressing concern over the matter. There are ways of incorporating different languages into the Mass, specifically within the Liturgy of the Word. But, when it comes to the point where we are celebrating ourselves and our differences, then, we have completely missed the point as to why we are at Mass in the first place.
 
And with due respect I would offer that this is not a “serious forum” but rather a web forum of Catholics discussing liturgy. A “serious forum” would involve much more complex issues than the usual plethora of “Is this an abuse?” threads…

“Had a blast” is simply an expression. When reading the post its perfectly clear what the OP is trying to communicate and the OP showed zero disrespect for Mass.

This is exactly the problem. This thread was not supposed to be about a debate of the use of Latin in liturgy nor was it an attempt to address any liturgical abuses that are taking place anywhere else.
Bless your heart, Father, you are a breath of fresh air. Of course, the Holy Spirit came in the wind, didn’t He?

Thank you for your wise and balanced posts in this thread. You sound like someone who speaks with the voice of experience.

I can’t help but think as I read this thread that laypeople would probably have very little to do with planning the liturgy if there were enough priests.

But when Catholics pick and bite at the priests and bishops that we do have, and imply that many of them are in error, well, no wonder young men shake their heads when the Holy Spirit comes calling. It takes a brave man who is willing to step into the line of fire and accept a position where your own people are constantly checking up on you and using half-knowledge to accuse you of liturgical abuse (and other kinds of abuse).

And so we get the fruits of our efforts–no priests, and we laypeople end up with the duty of studying the documents and trying to figure out how to plan the liturgy without the benefit of seminary and the priestly training. Is it any wonder that there is so much variation from Mass to Mass?
 
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