Multi-Culture Mass... Had a blast...

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When I spoke of hospitality in the Mass, what I meant was that the priest and others who are involved think of all the people who will attend, and try to do things that will help them to more fully appreciate the Mass. E.g., having a good sound system. For the OF of the Mass, this is vital. It’s not so important for the EF of the Mass. But most Catholic churches I have visited (OF Mass) have terrible sound systems. A hospitable church will do whatever they can to have an adequate sound system.
Or a place for those in wheelchairs to sit where they aren’t sticking out the aisle. Now I KNOW that the rubrics do not forbid this. It’s hospitality to make some kind of reasonable accomodations for those who use wheelchairs.
Cat, honestly. How was I supposed to know you were talking about hospitality in this context? I’m not trying to be argumentative, but my original reply was to your response to benedictgal. Nothing in that post indicated that this was what you were talking about, but rather, seminarians “toning down their ambition” and “get the feeling that some people on CAF would be very happy to sit in a perfect Mass all alone. I have a problem with that.” So, again, nothing you stated in that reply was indicative that you were talking about sound systems or wheelchairs or whatever.
But he may determine that half the people would leave the Church if Latin chants were done instead of contemporary hymns. YOU might not leave, but others would, and the priest has to think about everyone in the parish, not just YOU.
This is simply where you and I differ. If the priest wants contemporary hymns, awesome! But don’t do it because you think Latin will push people away. Latin has a rich history in the Church and it shouldn’t be thrown to the side because some people treat it like a spider. I’m more than happy to have half and half, contemporary and Latin.

Here’s an honest question for ya: if your pastor decided that he only wanted Latin to be sung, would you continue to play the piano at that parish?
What I’m saying is that the priest needs to determine how he can obey the rubrics and conduct a liturgically-correct Mass, but still accomodate the parishioners and encourage them to attend Mass, not walk away from it. It IS possible to do both–be liturgically correct, and be hospitable.
Agreed. However, you seem too willing to compromise tradition because more contemporary people feel turned off by anything that’s “too Catholic.” While I agree that nothing you suggest is against the rubrics, and thus “technically” correct, I dislike the notion that we have to now cater to people. It did not seem to be a problem for the centuries the TLM was in place. Again, this is just a personal disagreement; I’m not suggesting that you’re wrong or that I’m wrong.
 
Here’s an honest question for ya: if your pastor decided that he only wanted Latin to be sung, would you continue to play the piano at that parish?
It’s easy to spot musicians whose hearts aren’t completely into the music they are forced to play. It’s perhaps this rather than the Latin (or classical music, for that matter) that people may be rejecting.
 
We had a muti-culture Mass this evening at our Church, to welcome our new Arch-Bishop! It was awesome. We welcomed various Catholic Churches in our community with a variety of ethnic groups, oh my gosh, it was awesome. We had people Spanish, Haitian, Nigeria, Polish, Korean, and much more. I am in the Choir at my Church, and the other Churches had their Choirs there too, you should of seen us, we had our Choir Robes on, and just dancing up a storm. LOL We all laughed because we all look like something out of a movie…
Was God invited to this self-love fest? :hey_bud:
 
Was God invited to this self-love fest? :hey_bud:
That’s just the flip side of “Was God invited when the historical reenactors came out to play?” said of Masses in the Extraordinary Form. Shame on you. It was a Mass.
 
Sadly…there are some who prefer the sack cloth and ashes :(with a truck load of guilt :ouch:folded in. The fishbowl is quite comfy to some. Sure beats going out into the “real world” and looking at others who are in our “universal” Church spreading and sharing the love and sacrifice of our Lord Saviour.

To the OP…very good post. I am glad you went away with a feeling of God is alive everywhere and in everyone…He speaks and understands all languages. 😃
 
.He speaks and understands all languages. 😃
" Remember the Tower of Babel. “The descendants of Noah had migrated from the “east” (Armenia) first southward, along the course of the Tigris, then westward across the Tigris into “a plain in the land of Sennar”. As their growing number forced them to live in localities more and more distant from their patriarchal homes, “they said: Come, let us make a city and a tower, the top whereof may reach to heaven; and let us make our name famous before we be scattered abroad into all lands.” The work was soon fairly under way; “and they had brick instead of stones, and slime (asphalt) instead of mortar.”** But God confounded their tongue, so that they did not understand one another’s speech, and thus scattered them from that place into all lands, and they ceased to build the city.” **"
 
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ProVobis:
:rolleyes:it is difficult at best for some people to understand the “spirit of the law”
 
So just play the melodies then at communion or before or after Mass. You’re the music director so you should have control over these matters, I would think.

And you don’t need to tell the world you despise Latin at every opportunity. I think most can tell right away. 🙂
No, ProvVobis, I am not the music director. I’m only an accompanist, and that’s ALL I do. I play what the music director tells me to play. I only play piano, not organ or any other instrument. I’m a very good accompanist, but I am not qualified to be a music director of anything. Just an accompanist.

And the only reason I mention is that I want others who might be lurking on the thread, as well as new people (like the OP) to realize that not every Christian is enamored of Latin. I’m sure that there are many people lurking who feel exactly the way I do about Latin, and they feel so guilty and unspiritual when they read posts from all the Catholics who love Latin and the ancient music. When they read my posts, they’ll see that they’re not alone.
 
No, ProvVobis, I am not the music director. I’m only an accompanist, and that’s ALL I do. I play what the music director tells me to play. I only play piano, not organ or any other instrument. I’m a very good accompanist, but I am not qualified to be a music director of anything. Just an accompanist.

And the only reason I mention is that I want others who might be lurking on the thread, as well as new people (like the OP) to realize that not every Christian is enamored of Latin.
Well, if you don’t play it for them, how are they even going to hear the music, Latin or otherwise? I’m sure they don’t watch EWTN all day long. You’re in a good position as a musician to skew the numbers of those who love Latin songs; I don’t know why you’re complaining.
 
This is simply where you and I differ. If the priest wants contemporary hymns, awesome! But don’t do it because you think Latin will push people away. Latin has a rich history in the Church and it shouldn’t be thrown to the side because some people treat it like a spider. I’m more than happy to have half and half, contemporary and Latin.
Perhaps I’ve seen so many Protestant churches utterly divided and destroyed over music–that is why I believe in caution and patience and taking time to make sure that everyone is on board and that people aren’t being discarded for the sake of music.

In my mother’s church, an internationally-renowned musician/composer was hired to be the Music Pastor. (You would recognize his name.) He completely eliminated almost ALL traditional hymns, and the only time the organ was heard was for funerals of old people, and only when they requested it. No longer could people just join the choir–they had to try out.

When the older folks (and a lot of younger folks, too) tried to protest, they were told to “stop hindering the work of the Holy Spirit.” This was very hurtful to these dear people who had spent decades living faithfully and supporting their church.

Quite a few of them left the church of their childhood.

Perhaps this is why I say, “Ease into it.” It is tragic that these older folks were just cast aside and told to “Like it or lump it, but this is the way things will be from now on.” There was no reason for that.
Here’s an honest question for ya: if your pastor decided that he only wanted Latin to be sung, would you continue to play the piano at that parish?
Of course I would keep playing, but I don’t think that most of the Latin chants are done with accompaniment, are they? But I think the hymns have piano accompaniments, don’t they?

I believe strongly in parish loyalty. I would not leave my parish unless the parish got involved with promoting something sinful; e.g., abortion on demand or gay marriage. Or if the bishop closed down the parish and proclaimed it heretical (I don’t think he’s likely to let any of his parishes get to the point where they are proclaiming heresy–our bishop jumps on the slightest liturgical abuse like a cat on a mouse and puts a stop to it.)
Agreed. However, you seem too willing to compromise tradition because more contemporary people feel turned off by anything that’s “too Catholic.” While I agree that nothing you suggest is against the rubrics, and thus “technically” correct, I dislike the notion that we have to now cater to people. It did not seem to be a problem for the centuries the TLM was in place. Again, this is just a personal disagreement; I’m not suggesting that you’re wrong or that I’m wrong.
I still advocate care and time and easy does it. This century is NOT the previous century. People have changed. Do you realize that only fifty years ago, many women never ever wore a pair of slacks? I only saw my mother in slacks a few times in my life. The only time my grandmother ever wore slacks was when she did chores (milking cows).

It’s not that women CHOSE to wear dresses back then. They didn’t have the choice. No women wore slacks (except Katherine Hepburn).

Wow, have times ever changed. The last time I wore a dress was two years ago at my daughter’s wedding. My feet are so deformed that I hate exposing them in their clunky orthopedic shoes, and dresses force me to reveal my feet. Also, I feel naked and vulnerable in a dress; I remember in school when boys would pull up my dress (or other girls’ dresses). I prefer the safety and modesty of slacks.

Anyway, my point is that people have CHOICES in this day and age, and they exercise those choices often. These are the times we live in and we have to accept it.

As you know, most Catholics have no clue about their Church. Many of us on CAF are “enlightened” and we are passionately committed to our Church and our Savior. But I’ve seen the posts in the Traditional Section–over half of Catholics do not accept the basic Catholic teaching of the True Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

We CANNOT lose these people! They are like lambs, and if we lose them, they will be devoured by the wolves. We can’t let them go for the sake of a song.

I think that many of them would be very happy to accept Latin eventually, and some might love it all the time. But this should be carefully discerned by the priest and other wise parishioners. We should NOT throw down the gauntlet and dare people to leave the Church, because they WILL leave the Church. And frankly, I think the Lord will not be pleased to hear that we sacrificed lambs for the sake of Latin (or whatever). I think He’d rather have souls than songs.

St. Paul said that in order to win people to Christ, he becomes all things to all people. So yes, I think we SHOULD cater to people. I don’t think we should compromise our dogma ever. But I think it is a charitable and wise thing to do to ease into a return to ancient music. I don’t think that charity and hospitality are wimpy at all.
 
Well, if you don’t play it for them, how are they even going to hear the music, Latin or otherwise? I’m sure they don’t watch EWTN all day long. You’re in a good position as a musician to skew the numbers of those who love or might love Latin songs; I don’t know why you’re complaining.
Why do you think I’m in a good position to influence people in the parish? I honestly have no say in what I play during Mass. It’s all written out by the Music Director. I play what he tells me to play. I don’t even see him or talk to him. I get a syllabus in the mail.
 
I believe strongly in parish loyalty. I would not leave my parish unless the parish got involved with promoting something sinful; e.g., abortion on demand or gay marriage. Or if the bishop closed down the parish and proclaimed it heretical (I don’t think he’s likely to let any of his parishes get to the point where they are proclaiming heresy–our bishop jumps on the slightest liturgical abuse like a cat on a mouse and puts a stop to it.)
a bit off topic, but a Bishop won’t close down a parish because of a heretical priest. he’ll strip the priest of his faculties and then replace him. or if the priest and parish belongs to a religious order, he’ll report them to their superior
 
😃
Perhaps I’ve seen so many Protestant churches utterly divided and destroyed over music–that is why I believe in caution and patience and taking time to make sure that everyone is on board and that people aren’t being discarded for the sake of music.

In my mother’s church, an internationally-renowned musician/composer was hired to be the Music Pastor. (You would recognize his name.) He completely eliminated almost ALL traditional hymns, and the only time the organ was heard was for funerals of old people, and only when they requested it. No longer could people just join the choir–they had to try out.

When the older folks (and a lot of younger folks, too) tried to protest, they were told to “stop hindering the work of the Holy Spirit.” This was very hurtful to these dear people who had spent decades living faithfully and supporting their church.
A lot of us can sympathize with that. In the 60’s and 70’s, we had to watch them wreck our high altars, remove communion rails, statues, communion rails, organs. We watched the nuns leave their teaching ministries, schools and parishes close. Not fun.

Not to change the subject, but I just happen to be included as part of a phone discussion as I’m writing here. The first caller is really letting the Congressman know about his strong preference for making the English language the official language of the United States. The Congressman just told him he agrees. Well good luck with that. 😃

More later.
 
😃

A lot of us can sympathize with that. In the 60’s and 70’s, we had to watch them wreck our high altars, remove communion rails, statues, communion rails, organs. We watched the nuns leave their teaching ministries, schools and parishes close. Not fun.

Not to change the subject, but I just happen to be included as part of a phone discussion as I’m writing here. The first caller is really letting the Congressman know about his strong preference for making the English language the official language of the United States. The Congressman just told him he agrees. Well good luck with that. 😃

More later.
you should argue for it to be Latin
so that when they hold Mass in the vernacular…
 
Perhaps this is why I say, “Ease into it.” It is tragic that these older folks were just cast aside and told to “Like it or lump it, but this is the way things will be from now on.” There was no reason for that.
I feel bad for them too.
And frankly, I think the Lord will not be pleased to hear that we sacrificed lambs for the sake of Latin (or whatever). I think He’d rather have souls than songs.
This works both ways though. As you said, the older folks were cast aside to make way for more “up-to-date” liturgical practices and songs. Where’s the concern for them? Where’s the concern for the younger generation that does appreciate traditional virtues? I think you’re failing to realize that it’s not just old people that appreciate Latin and traditional songs (I’m 32 and I witness TLM’s are packed with people my age). We seem too dedicated to appeasing the more modern crowd and telling the traditional crowd to “like it or lump it.”

I’ll share something with you about myself that I didn’t really want to before: I attend the EF (TLM) Mass exclusively because I have an appreciation for traditional aspects like Latin and Gregorian chant. Almost all of the OF Masses offered in my area are virtually void of anything that resembles Latin and Gregorian chant (save a couple), yet Vatican II documents (that I’ve been reading and have in front of me) clearly state that Latin and Gregorian chants should be preserved. I would attend the OF Mass if some of this was included. I’m not suggesting that the whole Mass be in Latin and Gregorian chant; get rid of the novelties i.e. dancing, holding hands and meet me half way on the music, Latin and vernacular and we have a Mass that many can appreciate.

I don’t know if you’ve read in my other posts, but I had embarked on a journey to attend Mass at every parish in the diocese. I recently decided that I’m not going to continue because of the 24 parishes I visited that celebrated the OF Mass, none of them showed a hint of traditional values. Not even a compromise like I’m suggesting. The last OF Mass I attended was on Memorial Day weekend, and it was preceded by a bugler playing America the Beautiful and Taps from the loft. I was trying to pray; what happened to sacred silence (as stated in the GIRM).

Anyways, I’m rambling. My point is that you’re protecting the contemporary crowd. Cool; that’s your preference. But many of your brothers and sisters are doing what they can to completely push traditional values out of the same windows that were opened to “bring in some fresh air.”
 
I didn’t even have to ask which archdiocese you are in to know- you have our former bishop:) I think the last post hit the nail on the head for what the purpose of the multicultural Mass is for this person. Everyone brings something different to their ministry. This is his signature. And, in the big picture, probably a good one to have.

Enjoy!
 
I feel bad for them too.

This works both ways though. As you said, the older folks were cast aside to make way for more “up-to-date” liturgical practices and songs. Where’s the concern for them? Where’s the concern for the younger generation that does appreciate traditional virtues? I think you’re failing to realize that it’s not just old people that appreciate Latin and traditional songs (I’m 32 and I witness TLM’s are packed with people my age). We seem too dedicated to appeasing the more modern crowd and telling the traditional crowd to “like it or lump it.”

I’ll share something with you about myself that I didn’t really want to before: I attend the EF (TLM) Mass exclusively because I have an appreciation for traditional aspects like Latin and Gregorian chant. Almost all of the OF Masses offered in my area are virtually void of anything that resembles Latin and Gregorian chant (save a couple), yet Vatican II documents (that I’ve been reading and have in front of me) clearly state that Latin and Gregorian chants should be preserved. I would attend the OF Mass if some of this was included. I’m not suggesting that the whole Mass be in Latin and Gregorian chant; get rid of the novelties i.e. dancing, holding hands and meet me half way on the music, Latin and vernacular and we have a Mass that many can appreciate.

I don’t know if you’ve read in my other posts, but I had embarked on a journey to attend Mass at every parish in the diocese. I recently decided that I’m not going to continue because of the 24 parishes I visited that celebrated the OF Mass, none of them showed a hint of traditional values. Not even a compromise like I’m suggesting. The last OF Mass I attended was on Memorial Day weekend, and it was preceded by a bugler playing America the Beautiful and Taps from the loft. I was trying to pray; what happened to sacred silence (as stated in the GIRM).

Anyways, I’m rambling. My point is that you’re protecting the contemporary crowd. Cool; that’s your preference. But many of your brothers and sisters are doing what they can to completely push traditional values out of the same windows that were opened to “bring in some fresh air.”
I definitely don’t agree with pushing the ancient music out the windows. I think that everyone should be accomodated (within reason, of course–I’m not expecting to hear any George Jones in the Mass soon, even though that would be MY personal preference!).

Yes, I think that we need to move towards compliance with the various documents that state that Gregorian chant should be given “pride of place” (whatever that means) in the Mass, and that certain parts of the Mass should be in Latin.

But I still think “easy does it” should be the method. Everyone will be happier in the end, including the “traditionalists.”

In fact, I think that by going slow and easy in adding Latin to the Mass, the traditionalists will discover that more people will be willing to get on board with the changes, and isn’t that what traditionalists want–for everyone to appreciate the ancient music and language? Slow and steady is always the best approach to bring about permanent changes.

I think that many of the “traditionalist Catholics” are more knowledgeable and stronger in their faith and loyalty to the Church and the Lord than many of the “modern” Catholics. For this reason, I think that the traditionalists can perhaps more easily put up with personal sacrifices for the sake of their weaker brothers and sisters. I think that if the music is not to their personal liking, traditionalists are still going to stick around the Church, while moderns will be tempted to leave the Church and head for a church where the music and atmosphere are “relevant” and “meet their needs.” Once again, it’s a question of the stronger brothers and sisters (the traditionalists) working hard and giving up things to hold onto their weaker brothers and sisters (the moderns).

Yes, I realize that the above paragraph is a very broad generalization and that there are many exceptions.

But again, I’m NOT saying that the ancient should be utterly tossed aside in an attempt to cajole anyone. Rather, I’m saying that the traditionalists would be wise to take it slow and “woo” with much love and patience their recalcitrant modern brothers and sisters into the fulness of the Catholic Church. This approach will work better than “I’m sick of Marty Haugen and I’m not going to take it anymore! I want chant and Latin and I want it NOW!” That approach won’t work.
 
I definitely don’t agree with pushing the ancient music out the windows. I think that everyone should be accomodated (within reason, of course–I’m not expecting to hear any George Jones in the Mass soon, even though that would be MY personal preference!).

Yes, I think that we need to move towards compliance with the various documents that state that Gregorian chant should be given “pride of place” (whatever that means) in the Mass, and that certain parts of the Mass should be in Latin.

But I still think “easy does it” should be the method. Everyone will be happier in the end, including the “traditionalists.”

In fact, I think that by going slow and easy in adding Latin to the Mass, the traditionalists will discover that more people will be willing to get on board with the changes, and isn’t that what traditionalists want–for everyone to appreciate the ancient music and language? Slow and steady is always the best approach to bring about permanent changes.

I think that many of the “traditionalist Catholics” are more knowledgeable and stronger in their faith and loyalty to the Church and the Lord than many of the “modern” Catholics. For this reason, I think that the traditionalists can perhaps more easily put up with personal sacrifices for the sake of their weaker brothers and sisters. I think that if the music is not to their personal liking, traditionalists are still going to stick around the Church, while moderns will be tempted to leave the Church and head for a church where the music and atmosphere are “relevant” and “meet their needs.” Once again, it’s a question of the stronger brothers and sisters (the traditionalists) working hard and giving up things to hold onto their weaker brothers and sisters (the moderns).

Yes, I realize that the above paragraph is a very broad generalization and that there are many exceptions.

But again, I’m NOT saying that the ancient should be utterly tossed aside in an attempt to cajole anyone. Rather, I’m saying that the traditionalists would be wise to take it slow and “woo” with much love and patience their recalcitrant modern brothers and sisters into the fulness of the Catholic Church. This approach will work better than “I’m sick of Marty Haugen and I’m not going to take it anymore! I want chant and Latin and I want it NOW!” That approach won’t work.
However, Cat, with all due respect, you are coming from the Protestant perspective when you say “whatever pride of place means” when it comes to Latin and Gregorian chant. It’s akin to what Prince Charles said when asked if he was in love with his betrothed at the time, the Lady Diana Spencer, “whatever in-love means.”

As far as Latin and Gregorian chant are concerned, “pride of place” means that these should be employed first and foremost in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. These rank higher than the average hymns. Pride of place pretty much means, that we default to Latin and Gregorian Chant.

That is why virtually all of the Papal Masses, even the ones celebrated for the diocese of Rome proper, default to Latin and Gregorian Chant. That is why you will rarely, if ever, listen to a hymn as the entrance processional because antiphons are used. Even when there are multiple languages involved in the Papal Masses (during the Liturgy of the Word), the default is the unifying factor of Latin and Gregorian chant. In fact, the opening rites use Greek for the Kyrie and Latin for the Gloria. The only time you will probably have a regular hymn will be during the offertory and the recessional.
 
you should argue for it to be Latin
so that when they hold Mass in the vernacular…
Maybe it should. The US currency has more Latin (E Pluribus Unum, Annuit Coeptis, Novus Ordo Seclorum) than a typical OF Mass.🙂 Who would have thought that it would ever come to this 50 some years ago?
 
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