Multiculturalism in the West

[Ridgerunner]

Out here in the Portland area I can tell you where you may find a significant number, for example, of Russians. Part of that is language, but only a part of that.

And the discrimination is not specifically all Italians, as opposed to all Germans; the Church particularly on the East Coast has had parishes which were almost entirely ethnically based. Urban changes to Portland have pretty much dissolved at least one ethnically Italian parish; but we certainly have an ethnically Polish parish (and great pirogues during the Polish festival).

Of perhaps passing interest, I had occasion to speak to a couple of Russian women who operate a store in a mid-sized town. I asked about how their children (born here, for the most part) viewed this country. “Oh, they’re Americans” they said. “They don’t even want to speak Russian.” And so, further inquiry confirmed, the Russian and Ukrainian kids in that town (there were a fair number of them) just simply melted into the “kid population”.

Hispanics don’t melt in quite as readily, but some do. Mexicans, in particular, seem to do so more readily than Central Americans. It can sometimes be at least mildly surprising to listen to a Mexican-American speak with a Texas, Oklahoma or Ozark accent.

I am told that in New York there are regional Italian neighborhoods. There are Sicilian, Tuscan, Alpine, etc neighborhoods. It seems “being Italian” is not a rigidly singular thing any more than “being American” is. Some of my own ancestors were Alpine Italian, some with red or blonde-haired, some blue-eyed. A Roman I once knew referred to them as “those Germans”.

 

[JimG]

I remember when multicultural training came to the Federal workforce. I was a middle manager at the time, but every employee had to attend. One exercise the instructors asked of us was to name three cultural factors from one’s own background. When I responded with something like, “well, Greco-Roman, Judeo-Christian, American—I’m a product of Western civilization,” it was not at all what they wanted to hear. I had to come up with something less universal.

 

[Francis1636]

On an historical timeline, the amount of time that there has been a United States is the blink of an eye. This land belonged to indigenous peoples such as the Sioux and the Hopi and the Navajo and so on. You remember these people - they’re he ones we took it from. Then came English people, African people, French people, German, Irish, Italian, Nordic, Asian and other people as well as others and they threaded together the makings of a culture, but this is not a finished process. America has never been a place for one sort of people. To say that America is not for everyone is a rather short sighted view. What color, and religion is an American?

I agree with what your saying that the U.S. is a relatively young country, but my point remains: The nation established through the constitution by the founders was based upon three pillars in my opinion: Mainline Protestant Christianity, generally free market economics, and democracy. I am not defending the history of the U.S., in fact i am as far from an American Exceptionalist as there is, but am simply stating my opinion that multiculturalism erodes culture. Think about it, what moral precepts unite Americans today? What taboos do we hold in society anymore? “Tolerance” is the only virtue we hold, and it is a stretch to call it a virtue.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

I agree with what your saying that the U.S. is a relatively young country, but my point remains: The nation established through the constitution by the founders was based upon three pillars in my opinion: Mainline Protestant Christianity, generally free market economics, and democracy.

On the surface this would have some truth. Democracy was the boilerplate the package the revolution was wrapped in. In truth, it was power grab, like most revolutions.

…multiculturalism erodes culture.

In the case of the United States, multiculturalism simply built a new culture made up of European cultures Asian cultures, African cultures, and so on. Unless you descendant from a Native American tribe, your background is from somewhere other than here, and your culture is a confluence of many cultures. It is also very evident that culture isn’t stagnant. It’s a work in progress. Our culture over the past 50 years has morphed into a society that fetishizes objects and brand names, worships youth and beauty, and looks to commercial icons for direction and identity, while the top 2% of the population controls 45% of the wealth while the remaining 98% have to kick each other in the teeth to scramble for what is left. I am seriously wondering what it is about our culture that is worth preserving. Can you explain this?

 

[Ridgerunner]

On the surface this would have some truth. Democracy was the boilerplate the package the revolution was wrapped in. In truth, it was power grab, like most revolutions.

In the case of the United States, multiculturalism simply built a new culture made up of European cultures Asian cultures, African cultures, and so on. Unless you descendant from a Native American tribe, your background is from somewhere other than here, and your culture is a confluence of many cultures. It is also very evident that culture isn’t stagnant. It’s a work in progress. Our culture over the past 50 years has morphed into a society that fetishizes objects and brand names, worships youth and beauty, and looks to commercial icons for direction and identity, while the top 2% of the population controls 45% of the wealth while the remaining 98% have to kick each other in the teeth to scramble for what is left. I am seriously wondering what it is about our culture that is worth preserving. Can you explain this?

Well, for one thing, this culture does not cut peoples’ heads off for being of the “wrong” religion or for committing adultery. Nor does it keep gulags for the dissenters. And, as far as I recall, no losing politician has been fed to wild dogs by the winner.

I will agree that the negatives you describe above (“paganism” really) have infected a goodly part of the society. But not all, and not by quite a way. But the paganism is highly visible and highly touted by the “elites”.

I am, though, inclined to wonder when the top 2% did NOT control 45% of the wealth. I recall seeing in a TV account that, at one time, some rich guy in the 19th Century (might have been JP Morgan) owned more wealth than all the rest of the citizens of the country combined. But if, at some point, 45% was not controlled by 2%, I would be glad to look at the numbers and the source.

And 98% do NOT have to kick each other in the teeth to scramble for what the 2% let drop from the table. I’m certainly not in the 2%, but I’m not unhappy that I own what I own or that the 2% own what they own. Actually, I think most people feel that way.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

The quote you pulled about the Church and discrimination points out that the Church acknowledges the differences between people and cultures. It contrasts this with the Civil Rights acts which forbids anyone to act on these distinctions.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 ended segregation in public places and banned employment discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin.

Are you suggesting that the Church believes segregation in public places and employment discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex and national origin are acceptable?

And not everyone would agree with you that it is right that someone should not be able to discriminate.

Yeah, OK, I never said that. I mean, sure, I don’t believe that the colored folk should have their own drinking fountains, and apparently that makes me a radical here. But there are plenty of situations in which one can exercise* just *discrimination.

 

[TEPO]

Governments are not listening to their citizens, and are not placing value in naturally developed cultures. Instead, governments all across the Western board are simultaneously placing economics before culture. This is a huge mistake.

Culture and economics should go hand in hand and to classify culture as an “imaginary concept”, as is popularly thought today, creates a synthetic culture based solely on economics. Its a kind of manufactured culture that lacks a lot -its sort of a ‘cheap’ version of what occurs naturally, and is witnessed through anthropology.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Well, for one thing, this culture does not cut peoples’ heads off for being of the “wrong” religion or for committing adultery. Nor does it keep gulags for the dissenters. And, as far as I recall, no losing politician has been fed to wild dogs by the winner.

The examples you have used are outliers among societies. There is no punishment for being of the wrong religion in most civilized societies, and insofar as the death penalty is concerned, the US has more in common with the Islamic states you have cited than it does with the rest of the civilized world simply because we have it.

I will agree that the negatives you describe above (“paganism” really) have infected a goodly part of the society. But not all, and not by quite a way. But the paganism is highly visible and highly touted by the “elites”.

I am wondering how you have drawn a nexus between paganism and commercialism. It’s an interesting idea, but you would have to elaborate more on that.

And 98% do NOT have to kick each other in the teeth to scramble for what the 2% let drop from the table. I’m certainly not in the 2%, but I’m not unhappy that I own what I own or that the 2% own what they own. Actually, I think most people feel that way.

You’re lucky and perhaps a bit insulated as well.

 

[TEPO]

In the case of the United States, multiculturalism simply built a new culture made up of European cultures Asian cultures, African cultures, and so on. Unless you descendant from a Native American tribe, your background is from somewhere other than here, and your culture is a confluence of many cultures. It is also very evident that culture isn’t stagnant. It’s a work in progress. Our culture over the past 50 years has morphed into a society that fetishizes objects and brand names, worships youth and beauty, and looks to commercial icons for direction and identity, while the top 2% of the population controls 45% of the wealth while the remaining 98% have to kick each other in the teeth to scramble for what is left. I am seriously wondering what it is about our culture that is worth preserving. Can you explain this?

I think the reason why Americans fetishize objects so much is because “culture” is viewed by the leaders as an imaginary concept. Our leaders only see through the lens of economics, and because of this, we pass laws that marginalize culture. We teach our children that our past cultures, or the cultures we stem from are evil, and to fix the problem, we send them to school to play their role in the world of economics, so they can earn money to buy all the things their hearts desire…

But to kill culture has consequences. Moral erosion over time appears to be one result. Without natural anthropologically sound culture, comradery also becomes lost. I can think of others.

 

[TEPO]

…I also blame abortion on multiculturalism. The idea that we can kill our own bloodline indicates that we dont honor any bloodline. People vote pro-abortion because its not ‘their’ bloodline thats being killed off. It’s omeone else’s problem.

 

[Francis1636]

On the surface this would have some truth. Democracy was the boilerplate the package the revolution was wrapped in. In truth, it was power grab, like most revolutions.

In the case of the United States, multiculturalism simply built a new culture made up of European cultures Asian cultures, African cultures, and so on. Unless you descendant from a Native American tribe, your background is from somewhere other than here, and your culture is a confluence of many cultures. It is also very evident that culture isn’t stagnant. It’s a work in progress. Our culture over the past 50 years has morphed into a society that fetishizes objects and brand names, worships youth and beauty, and looks to commercial icons for direction and identity, while the top 2% of the population controls 45% of the wealth while the remaining 98% have to kick each other in the teeth to scramble for what is left. I am seriously wondering what it is about our culture that is worth preserving.
Can you explain this?

Again, i think the neoconservative movement explains much of this. Their “family values” rhetoric is simply used to keep the dissenters registered within the party, but they will favor corporatism and their MTV values to the end, including the harmful cultural effects it brings about which have led to a hedonistic directionless culture. Their support of free trade has shipped off all of the relatively high paying blue collar jobs, destroying the middle class and making the family only an institution that can be enjoyed by the haves. True, the current state of culture IS NOT worth preserving, because it is a perversion of the western tradition, one which has been generally shaped by Christianity, law, the family (though that is a universal value really), and the liberal arts. I am not at all trying to celebrate our country’s history, in fact it is a pretty sick one. I say that we are here now and can do nothing about the past except avoid a future where politicians preach that america is exceptional and something worth celebrating. It is a good country to me because i was born here, but nothing more than that.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

That’s probably going to be one of the ideologies that gains prominence in the current climate, yes, as people aren’t represented by any current parties they will only find representation at the fringe. It’s one of the many unfortunate consequences of mass immigration and multiculturalism. I don’t subscribe to those ideas myself, although no doubt many would still consider my views extreme, but we live in a very strange age. It’s a shame that when a white man speaks of feeling kinship with his own people and culture that things such as white nationalism are immediately brought to mind, amongst other things.

Well, I should make clear the reasons why I asked this question, beyond simply your rejection of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the link you posted to a site which produces virulently racist material, e.g. the “Cosby” article running on the front page right now. That, in my mind, is good enough to peg you as a closet racist at the very least, but I was specifically interested in whether you have fully accepted the tenets of white nationalism or were just sorta sitting on the fence there.

Were you to admit to being a white nationalist, I would say that you were far from alone on Catholic Answers. My most recent encounter with a white nationalist on Catholic Answers was only about two weeks ago. Then you get the more subtle stuff like appeals to abolish Martin Luther King, Jr. day and such. I have actually been tracking the prevalence of this ideology here for some time now, and noting with some interest the lack of denunciations that follow.

Probably my biggest LULZ come from the fact that you can espouse a racist ideology with impunity on Catholic Answers, whereas something silly like calling someone a “radical traditionalist” will get you a warning.

I do, in fact, oppose your ideology with the whole of my heart (or, the ideology you may “unfortunately” be pushed into), but I’m sorta more interested in the sociological aspects of this discussion. Specifically, I’m actually beginning to wonder whether this sympathy for white nationalism or pseudo-white nationalism extends into the general population of Catholics, or at the very least of Catholics who happen to be members of this forum. I’ve followed the white nationalist threads across multiple sub-forums here, so it’s not as if it’s confined to any particular set of the user base. As you can observe, there certainly isn’t a lot of work done to denounce this ideology, as there seems to be more interest in cracking down on various other things (again, the “rad trad” purge is the funniest, IMO).

Have you also noticed the sympathy that your ideology (or the one you may “unfortunately” adopt at some point) has on this forum?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Again, i think the neoconservative movement explains much of this. Their “family values” rhetoric is simply used to keep the dissenters registered within the party, but they will favor corporatism and their MTV values to the end, including the harmful cultural effects it brings about which have led to a hedonistic directionless culture. Their support of free trade has shipped off all of the relatively high paying blue collar jobs, destroying the middle class and making the family only an institution that can be enjoyed by the haves. True, the current state of culture IS NOT worth preserving, because it is a perversion of the western tradition, one which has been generally shaped by Christianity, law, the family (though that is a universal value really), and the liberal arts. I am not at all trying to celebrate our country’s history, in fact it is a pretty sick one. I say that we are here now and can do nothing about the past except avoid a future where politicians preach that america is exceptional and something worth celebrating. It is a good country to me because i was born here, but nothing more than that.

I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

 

[decatholic]

I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

I think I can agree with everything Gary said. The post makes my mind spin.

 

[TEPO]

Again, i think the neoconservative movement explains much of this. Their “family values” rhetoric is simply used to keep the dissenters registered within the party, but they will favor corporatism and their MTV values to the end, including the harmful cultural effects it brings about which have led to a hedonistic directionless culture. Their support of free trade has shipped off all of the relatively high paying blue collar jobs, destroying the middle class and making the family only an institution that can be enjoyed by the haves. True, the current state of culture IS NOT worth preserving, because it is a perversion of the western tradition, one which has been generally shaped by Christianity, law, the family (though that is a universal value really), and the liberal arts. I am not at all trying to celebrate our country’s history, in fact it is a pretty sick one. I say that we are here now and can do nothing about the past except avoid a future where politicians preach that america is exceptional and something worth celebrating. It is a good country to me because i was born here, but nothing more than that.

I disagree that the ‘newconservatives’ or “neoconservatives” are solely to blame for the lack of natural culture in the United States. Conservatives do have some Christian traits, which is an extention of the Roman culture after all. Ultimately though, culture along with religion are kept seperate from the constitution, which indicates that the founding fathers of this nation never intended for a national common culture… Maybe they realized the US would become too large in the end. Perhaps individual States, were intended to become the birthplaces of bloodline and religious based cultures.

In the case of New Orleans for example, in the State of Louisiana, we see that local areas do from time to time develop their own cultures. New Orleans, with its French and African influences has created a totally new culture. It developed naturally and is worth preserving IMO.
The State of Utah became the homeland of Mormonism -a religious culture… Another American original.

Ultimately, The freedoms that States once had was the catalyst for cultural development. The neoliberals and the neocons together in their lust for economic primacy have together increased the primacy of the federal government and have criminalized cultural development within individual states.

 

[shockerfan]

Again, i think the neoconservative movement explains much of this. Their “family values” rhetoric is simply used to keep the dissenters registered within the party, but they will favor corporatism and their MTV values to the end, including the harmful cultural effects it brings about which have led to a hedonistic directionless culture. Their support of free trade has shipped off all of the relatively high paying blue collar jobs, destroying the middle class and making the family only an institution that can be enjoyed by the haves. True, the current state of culture IS NOT worth preserving, because it is a perversion of the western tradition, one which has been generally shaped by Christianity, law, the family (though that is a universal value really), and the liberal arts. I am not at all trying to celebrate our country’s history, in fact it is a pretty sick one. I say that we are here now and can do nothing about the past except avoid a future where politicians preach that america is exceptional and something worth celebrating. It is a good country to me because i was born here, but nothing more than that.

So what country doesn’t have “skeletons” in the closet? At least here, we don’t have a caste system, we have a bill of rights that guarantees free speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion, etc. We can own private property, and plot our own way. Certainly not perfect…certainly much to be fixed…but the idea there is nothing worth celebrating (or to be thankful for this week), is a bit over the top. Heck, even when you consider we took someone else’s land, puts us in the same boat with everybody else on the planet (even the Native Americans prior to having their lands taken away were taking their land from other tribes, who took it from another tribe, who took it from another tribe, etc.)

 

[Ridgerunner]

The examples you have used are outliers among societies. There is no punishment for being of the wrong religion in most civilized societies, and insofar as the death penalty is concerned, the US has more in common with the Islamic states you have cited than it does with the rest of the civilized world simply because we have it.

One can be punished for having the “wrong” religion in most of the world, far and away most of it. And having the death penalty (in some states, but not all) for heinous crimes does not in any way compare with, say, beheading for “apostasy”. One might recall that the Church does not actually condemn the death penalty. So, are you drawing an equivalency between the Church and, say, ISIS?

I am wondering how you have drawn a nexus between paganism and commercialism. It’s an interesting idea, but you would have to elaborate more on that. Suffice it for now to first say that commercialism is not the only way you mentioned, in which the “elitist” culture in this country is pagan. Secondly, (and perhaps we can return to this sometime) one might do well to study the paganism of, e.g., ancient Greece.

You’re lucky and perhaps a bit insulated as well.

If I am lucky, then there are a great number of people who are as well. I do not live in a particularly wealthy part of the U.S., (S.W. Mo Ozarks) but I personally know great numbers of people who are considerably more wealthy than I am; people who inherited little or nothing, who were never “high earners” and who came by their wealth honestly. There are two “secrets” to most wealth accumulation. One is the passage of time. In an inflationary environment. The passage of time alone creates wealth if one is willing to borrow to invest or create “sweat equity”, particularly early in life. Second is living below one’s means, rather than at or above it as most do.

You may have a point in saying I’m “insulated”. It is sometimes remarked here that the way you can tell a millionaire from anyone else is that the millionaire’s pickup is older, but he has a better rifle in the rear window gun rack. There are some here with pretensions as there are everywhere, but it’s mostly considered ill-mannered to flaunt wealth. That does make living below one’s means considerably easier.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Were you to admit to being a white nationalist, I would say that you were far from alone on Catholic Answers. Specifically, I’m actually beginning to wonder whether this sympathy for white nationalism or pseudo-white nationalism extends into the general population of Catholics, or at the very least of Catholics who happen to be members of this forum.

This stereotyping of people you don’t know is so breathtaking in its scope it could make David Duke green with envy.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

This stereotyping of people you don’t know is so breathtaking in its scope it could make David Duke green with envy.

Are you suggesting that I am stereotyping people?

 

[Francis1636]

So what country doesn’t have “skeletons” in the closet? At least here, we don’t have a caste system, we have a bill of rights that guarantees free speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion, etc. We can own private property, and plot our own way. Certainly not perfect…certainly much to be fixed…but the idea there is nothing worth celebrating (or to be thankful for this week), is a bit over the top. Heck, even when you consider we took someone else’s land, puts us in the same boat with everybody else on the planet (even the Native Americans prior to having their lands taken away were taking their land from other tribes, who took it from another tribe, who took it from another tribe, etc.)

I agree with you that i was being over the top to get my point across. We do have much more personal liberty than most of the world’s population and i ought to be grateful for it, but i dislike when people speak of america as an “idea” or “experiment”. It is a country with clearly defined borders which are being trespassed and has had very similar religious and racial demographics as the countries of europe for essentially all of its history. I think america should not brand itself as an empire that is one size fits all, because the funny thing about empires is they all fall.