Multiple Churches and Infallability of the Church

[lanman87]

I have a couple of questions about how Catholics resolves some things in scripture.

First, there are multiple churches mentioned in Scripture. Each local assembly is considered a separate church. If you read through the New Testament there are multiple cased where the word “Churches” (plural) is used. The Evangelical position is that there is one universal church (all those who love and follow Christ) but it is made up of multiple local churches, which are independent ecclesiastical communities. This appears to the be pattern in the New Testament scriptures.

Second, there are several warnings in the New Testament for the church to not teach error.

3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11 : 3

Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20: 30

In Revelation Chapter 2-3 when Christ is addressing the seven churches he list several false teachings that was being taught/embraced in some of the churches.

14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Rev 2: 14-15

But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come Rev 2:24-25

Being that the churches are warned to not embrace false teaching and we have examples of the churches embracing false teachings (at least to some extent) then how does this jive with the teaching of the infallibility of doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church?

Since these are warnings to the churches, which include the leadership,(I would even say primarily the leadership) I will assume these teachings were being embraced by the leadership in the local churches as well as the membership. Hence the need for the warnings. The leadership was either advocating these false beliefs or else tolerating these false beliefs. In either case, the leadership was in error. Which is why they are told to repent of these teachings.

 

[MPat]

First, there are multiple churches mentioned in Scripture. Each local assembly is considered a separate church

The Code of Canon Law has a chapter that is called “Particular Churches” (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P1C.HTM).

Canon 368 specifically says: “Particular churches, in which and from which the one and only Catholic Church exists, are first of all dioceses,”.

So, there is nothing surprising in what you have noticed.

The Evangelical position is that there is one universal church (all those who love and follow Christ) but it is made up of multiple local churches, which are independent ecclesiastical communities.

You might note that at this point the wording seems to be rather similar to the one in Canon 368. Although, of course, the word “independent” seems to hint at something significantly different.

Second, there are several warnings in the New Testament for the church to not teach error.

As there are the warnings in Code of Canon Law. For example, Canon 386: “A diocesan bishop, frequently preaching in person, is bound to propose and explain to the faithful the truths of the faith which are to be believed and applied to morals.” or “he is firmly to protect the integrity and unity of the faith to be believed”.

Being that the churches are warned to not embrace false teaching and we have examples of the churches embracing false teachings (at least to some extent) then how does this jive with the teaching of the infallibility of doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church?

It is easily compatible.

Let’s look at what infallibility of the Church means.

In order for your point to hold it would have to say that no bishop can err. But it doesn’t say that. A bishop can err and can teach error, but all bishops cannot teach error together.

As “Lumen Gentium” (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html) says: “Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.”.

As you can see, there is no contradiction here.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Ian!

As someone once coined, “it’s all in the wrist,” no, wait, “the proof is in the tasting of the pudding,” no, no, “it’s all relative.” Yep, that’s the point!

…sorry for the long take…

Here’s the problem with your eisegesis… you think that by mentioning churches Scriptures is stating that there are numerous bodies of distinct and separated Believers… that’s not the case:

4:17 and why I have sent you Timothy, my dear and faithful son in the Lord: he will remind you of the way that I live in Christ, as I teach it everywhere in all the churches. (1 Corinthians)
4:3 Do all you can to preserve the unity of the Spirit by the peace that binds you together. 4:4 There is one Body, one Spirit, just as you were all called into one and the same hope when you were called. 4:5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 4:6 and one God who is Father of all, over all, through all and within all. (Ephesians)

So there is but one Church–one Body of Christ.

When the first schism began to take place it was addressed promptly:

3:4-11 What could be more unspiritual than your slogans, ‘I am for Paul’ and ‘I am for Apollos’? 3:5 After all, what is Apollos and what is Paul? They are servants who brought the faith to you. Even the different ways in which they brought it were assigned to them by the Lord. (1 Corinthians)

The separation into denominations and other tenets did not occur as a response to the Holy Spirit:

2:46 They went as a body to the Temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously; 2:47 they praised God and were looked up to by everyone. Day by day the Lord added to their community those destined to be saved. (Acts)

So, as the Church grew many more communities were added to the Body; yet, it was only One Body:

15:25 and so we have decided unanimously to elect delegates and to send them to you with Barnabas and Paul, men we highly respect… 15:28 It has been decided by the Holy Spirit and by ourselves not to saddle you with any burden beyond these essentials: (Acts)

In the above we can see the Holy Spirit inspiring the Church on how to handle the present erosion… this unity, of Apostolic Teaching, remains in the Church Founded by Christ.

The reference you’ve made to the 7 Churches, in my estimation, is the Church in time… there will be error that creeps into the Body but it must be extirpated and holiness promoted in its stead.

Error does not remove or negate Doctrine. The Teaching of the Church does not change. The correction is to reform from transgressions committed not that the whole body is rejecting God; some of the members are returning to their unrighteousness and are pulling others out of the body with their acceptance of Satan’s follies.

Christ’s Teaching remains. That’s what infallibility means: the Church, even if some of her members err, is protected by the Holy Spirit from Teaching error (anti-Christian falsehood).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[lanman87]

Christ’s Teaching remains. That’s what infallibility means: the Church, even if some of her members err, is protected by the Holy Spirit from Teaching error (anti-Christian falsehood).

So while the entire church cannot teach error it is possible to be taught error at individual local churches??? For instance, if I went to a random local Roman Catholic church and the priest gave a homily that said Christ died for everyone and that faith in Christ isn’t necessary because God is love and everyone will eventually make it to heaven anyway. The church doesn’t teach this so the church is still free from error but this local priest is in error, even though he is still in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church and a chosen representative of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Although, formally (on paper), such a priest would still be in full communion with and a chosen representative of the Catholic Church (at least until such time as his faculty to teach is revoked by his bishop and until such time as he is formally excommunicated), spiritually, he would not be in full communion with nor a chosen representative of the Catholic Church from the moment he started teaching the heresy.

“In the Catholic Church, obstinate and willful manifest heresy is considered to spiritually cut one off from the Church, even before [formal] excommunication is incurred.” (Wikipedia article on Heresy)

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Ian!

Yet, by the descriptive tenet that person is no longer in full communion with the Church.

This is the reality that has transpired throughout time; we find it right in the middle of Apostolic Teaching:

2:1-22 As there were false prophets in the past history of our people, so you too will have your false teachers, who will insinuate their own disruptive views and disown the Master who purchased their freedom. They will destroy themselves very quickly; 2:2 but there will be many who copy their shameful behaviour and the Way of Truth will be brought into disrepute on their account. 2:3 They will eagerly try to buy you for themselves with insidious speeches, but for them the Condemnation, pronounced so long ago, is at its work already, and Destruction is not asleep…
2:9 These are all examples of how the Lord can rescue the good from the ordeal, and hold the wicked for their punishment until the day of Judgement, 2:10 especially those who are governed by their corrupt bodily desires and have no respect for authority…
2:12 All the same, these people who only insult anything that they do not understand are not reasoning beings, but simply animals born to be caught and killed, and they will quite certainly destroy themselves by their own work of destruction, 2:13 and get their reward of evil for the evil that they do. They are unsightly blots on your society: men whose only object is dissipation all day long, and they amuse themselves deceiving you even when they are your guests at a meal; 2:14 with their eyes always looking for adultery; men with an infinite capacity for sinning, they will seduce any soul which is at all unstable. Greed is the one lesson their minds have learnt. They are under a curse. 2:15 They have left the right path and wandered off to follow the path of Balaam son of Beor, who thought he could profit best by sinning…
2:17 People like this are dried-up rivers, fogs swirling in the wind, and the dark underworld is the place reserved for them. 2:18 With their high-flown talk, which is all hollow, they tempt back the ones who have only just escaped from paganism, playing on their bodily desires with debaucheries. 2:19 They may promise freedom but they themselves are slaves, slaves to corruption; because if anyone lets himself be dominated by anything, then he is a slave to it; 2:20 and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in. 2:21 It would even have been better for him never to have learnt the way of holiness, than to know it and afterwards desert the holy rule that was entrusted to him… (2 St. Peter)

Sadly, dissention and protestation did not die then or with Luther and the likes of him. Satan’s newer game play is to remain in the Church and attack her from within.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

I have a couple of questions about how Catholics resolves some things in scripture.

Technically, we don’t resolve anything in Scripture. The New Testament Scriptures were written in the first century, based on Teachings that were resolved before the Scriptures were written.

We simply learn the Teachings of Jesus Christ as passed down by the Church, either by Word or by Epistle. That is the biblical method (2 Thess 2:15).

First, there are multiple churches mentioned in Scripture.

But Jesus established only one.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Each local assembly is considered a separate church. If you read through the New Testament there are multiple cased where the word “Churches” (plural) is used. The Evangelical position is that there is one universal church (all those who love and follow Christ) but it is made up of multiple local churches, which are independent ecclesiastical communities. This appears to the be pattern in the New Testament scriptures.

That’s how you read it because that’s all you know. But we read it according to the Sacred Tradition which has been passed down through the Church from Apostolic times.

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 110]).

Second, there are several warnings in the New Testament for the church to not teach error.

3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11 : 3

My wife used to have trouble reading maps. So, I gave her this suggestion. “Just pretend you’re on that line, you’re riding down that road to the destination you want.” It made all the difference.

Now, put yourself in that verse. Who is speaking to whom? St. Paul is speaking to the Corinthians. St. Paul, the representative of the MAGISTERIUM, which is the episcopate of the Church, is telling the local church to be careful not to go down the heretical road. The Magisterium is protecting the Church from error.

Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20: 30

Same thing.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

In Revelation Chapter 2-3 when Christ is addressing the seven churches he list several false teachings that was being taught/embraced in some of the churches.

14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, > who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Rev 2: 14-15

But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come Rev 2:24-25

What you seem not to know, probably because you have no knowledge of Church history, is that those Churches are all under St. John’s Bishopric. Thus, Jesus is informing St. John of the problems in his dioceses. St. John, in turn, currently in exile, writes about it to admonish his flock.

Being that the churches are warned to not embrace false teaching and we have examples of the churches embracing false teachings (at least to some extent) then how does this jive with the teaching of the infallibility of doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church?

It’s not related. Just like the inerrancy of the Scriptures is not related to the heresies that arise from people who misunderstand the Scriptures.

You limit the Word of God to Scripture. We don’t. We understand that Jesus Christ taught the Word of God by word. And commanded the Church to Teach what He Taught by word. This Teaching is protected by Jesus Christ. But not your misunderstanding.

Since these are warnings to the churches, which include the leadership,

The local leadership.

(I would even say primarily the leadership) I will assume these teachings were being embraced by the leadership in the local churches as well as the membership.

Correct, the local churches.

Hence the need for the warnings. The leadership was either advocating these false beliefs or else tolerating these false beliefs. In either case, the leadership was in error. Which is why they are told to repent of these teachings.

If you continue to distinguish between the local churches and the Universal Church, you will answer your own question.

 

[twf]

First, there are multiple churches mentioned in Scripture. Each local assembly is considered a separate church. If you read through the New Testament there are multiple cased where the word “Churches” (plural) is used. The Evangelical position is that there is one universal church (all those who love and follow Christ) but it is made up of multiple local churches, which are independent ecclesiastical communities. This appears to the be pattern in the New Testament scriptures.

I don’t see that as the New Testament pattern at all. In the New Testament we do see local, autonomous Churches, but we also see a clear, binding, central authority. This is exactly how the Catholic Church functions today (in very general terms): each diocese, under the local bishop, is an autonomous local Church (the proper term is “particular Church”), but all local dioceses are ultimately bound by the supreme authority of the Church, which can be exercised by either the Pope in Rome or by the bishops as a whole in union with the Pope (e.g. ecumenical council). Think of Acts 15. There are disputes in the local churches, so the apostles and elders in Jerusalem, who received their authority directly from Christ (see Matthew 18), hold a council. The text is clear that the decisions of that council were binding on all of the local churches.

 

[PJM]

GREAT POST

Thanks!

1. Multiple churches refers to physical churches; ALL of which had the SAME [one true church] Faith beliefs [or were too]

2.Churches teaching In Error: We find this to be true even today. WHY: because certain people think they know more, or no better than God, the bible, the Catechism, the Magisterium.

What Mt 16: 18 PROMISES is that “MY CHURCH” {& Faith…SINGULAR} will NOT be defeated; despite numerous and even constant attacks… “WILL NOT PREVAIL” … these attacks are BOTH internal and external

[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" {Douay Bible}

3.Teaching is error: the LESSON here is that the errors WERE identified & CORRECTED; NOT permitted to stand; which is the Promise Christ makes… The early Magisterium took charge and prevailed

Where ever there are people; we will find sin.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Patrick!

Glad to hear from you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PJM]

Thanks and God Bless!
Patrick

jcrichton
October 4 |

Hi, Patrick!

Glad to hear from you!

Maran atha!

Angel

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In Reply To

PJM
October 4 |

GREAT POST Thanks! Multiple churches refers to physical churches; ALL of which had the SAME [one true church] Faith beliefs [or were too]2.Churches teaching In Error: We find this to be true even today. WHY: because certain people think they know more, or no better than God, the bible, the Ca…
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[po18guy]

Since these are warnings to the churches, which include the leadership,(I would even say primarily the leadership) I will assume these teachings were being embraced by the leadership in the local churches as well as the membership. Hence the need for the warnings. The leadership was either advocating these false beliefs or else tolerating these false beliefs. In either case, the leadership was in error. Which is why they are told to repent of these teachings.

First, as we know, scripture’s meaning can be very vague. You may be placing a dictionary definition template over the teaching of the Apostles, thus, a few things to bear in mind:

1. Don’t.
2. These assemblies consisted of believer’s united in belief, although separated by geography. The approval of radically differing theology did not take root until 1,500 years later in Germany.
3. Who did Paul go to when he sought to ensure that his Gospel was correct and accorded with that of the Church leaders? Primarily Peter, James and some unnamed others.
4. Timothy and Titus are named by Paul. The rest are unnamed and it is not beneficial to assume that it was the hierarchy that erred. That same hierarchy had no such ‘street cred’ as Paul did, so his letters carried weight and were solicited to the extent that Paul was sent word about the problems.
5. Read the Didache the oldest known Christian document outside of the scriptures. It was written during the Apostolic age and was preserved only at the expenditure of great effort. Does your community have beliefs and practices that follow the pattern in the Didache? If not, it is beneficial to ask “why not?”

Please take note: Holy Writ is invaluable and irreplaceable. But the early Christians, as evidenced by the admonitions in the Didache, did not mention scripture at all. Imagine that! Take the bible away from bible Churches and what have you? Without scripture, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be injured, but would survive.