Murdered Coptics, Catholics and Orthodox not Christians, says protestant author

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Lenten_ashes said:
The author seems to imply he speaks for all on the reformed side.

pulpitandpen.org/2017/04/09/why-we-should-mourn-for-the-copts-but-not-assume-theyre-christians/

We are preaching a different gospel, apparently.:eek:

So about 1.5 billion Christians, by far the majority of Christendom, all tracing roots back to 33 A.D, are lost souls.

He seems quite certain of himself. I wonder where he got all this authority? Just by picking up a book and reading it?
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He has an opinion, just like the Pope has an opinion, and just like everyone else on earth has an opinion.
 
ltwin said:
He has an opinion, just like the Pope has an opinion, and just like everyone else on earth has an opinion.
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For every rational opinion I encounter, like Benhur for example, I get 5 of these types of guys.(author, not you)
 
And the ignorance of this author is such that he states that the Coptic Orthodox are part of the Greek Orthodox Church. They are not; in fact, they are not even in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church.
 
ltwin said:
He has an opinion, just like the Pope has an opinion, and just like everyone else on earth has an opinion.
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Personal opinions mean nothing in this case. Hard history and what the different churches profess is all that counts.

This man’s comments are ignorant and inflammatory.
 
I saw that last night and my first thought was, wow, they’re doing it again.

Striking the Coptic wound while the theological iron is hot. I think it says something about the spirit of ultra reformed folks that they wouldn’t even wait, let the dead bury their dead and all that before saying they were never Christian and are subsequently doomed to hell. This sort of appearance can only make pulpit and pen look bad, since they did before when the 21 Coptic Christians were murdered by ISIS (they proclaimed Jesus’ name upon their deaths).

I notice that in order for them to hold their beliefs regarding the non Christianity of Coptics, they must insist that Sola Fide is a necessary doctrine. It is however a doctrine formed specifically out of the reflection and crystallisation of one man, Martin Luther, even if aspects can be found before him in other writers. Do Pulpit and Pen believe they are the only Christians to walk to the earth these last 2000 years? I wouldn’t be surprised.

Also, as Ryan pointed out, the author doesn’t understand the difference between the Greek Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox communions, that we are not one Church. I will give the author at least some credit for quoting Pope Shenouda but why should we trust Pen and Pulpit to expound a theology which they clearly have little knowledge of?
 
RyanBlack said:
And the ignorance of this author is such that he states that the Coptic Orthodox are part of the Greek Orthodox Church. They are not; in fact, they are not even in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church.
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Yes, I noticed that, too. He also seems to think he speaks for all “protestants”, when in fact he misrepresents the beliefs of many while doing so.
I am critical of the Catholic teaching “outside the Church there is no salvation”, when it is presented as only those in communion with Rome are in the Church. I am equally critical of this.

Jon
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
I saw that last night and my first thought was, wow, they’re doing it again.

Striking the Coptic wound while the theological iron is hot. I think it says something about the spirit of ultra reformed folks that they wouldn’t even wait, let the dead bury their dead and all that before saying they were never Christian and are subsequently doomed to hell. This sort of appearance can only make pulpit and pen look bad, since they did before when the 21 Coptic Christians were murdered by ISIS (they proclaimed Jesus’ name upon their deaths).

I notice that in order for them to hold their beliefs regarding the non Christianity of Coptics, they must insist that Sola Fide is a necessary doctrine. It is however a doctrine formed specifically out of the reflection and crystallisation of one man, Martin Luther, even if aspects can be found before him in other writers. Do Pulpit and Pen believe they are the only Christians to walk to the earth these last 2000 years? I wouldn’t be surprised.

Also, as Ryan pointed out, the author doesn’t understand the difference between the Greek Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox communions, that we are not one Church. I will give the author at least some credit for quoting Pope Shenouda but why should we trust Pen and Pulpit to expound a theology which they clearly have little knowledge of?
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Based on what he says about it the sacraments, he probably would include Luther, Lutherans, and perhaps many Anglicans in the same category.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
I saw that last night and my first thought was, wow, they’re doing it again.

Striking the Coptic wound while the theological iron is hot. I think it says something about the spirit of ultra reformed folks that they wouldn’t even wait, let the dead bury their dead and all that before saying they were never Christian and are subsequently doomed to hell. This sort of appearance can only make pulpit and pen look bad, since they did before when the 21 Coptic Christians were murdered by ISIS (they proclaimed Jesus’ name upon their deaths).

I notice that in order for them to hold their beliefs regarding the non Christianity of Coptics, they must insist that Sola Fide is a necessary doctrine. It is however a doctrine formed specifically out of the reflection and crystallisation of one man, Martin Luther, even if aspects can be found before him in other writers. Do Pulpit and Pen believe they are the only Christians to walk to the earth these last 2000 years? I wouldn’t be surprised.

Also, as Ryan pointed out, the author doesn’t understand the difference between the Greek Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox communions, that we are not one Church. I will give the author at least some credit for quoting Pope Shenouda but why should we trust Pen and Pulpit to expound a theology which they clearly have little knowledge of?
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I admit that Luther was a madman, but what were Northern Europeans supposed to do? Just lie there and wait to be killed by bloodthirsty Hapsburgs? If it were not for the sacrifice of the Germanic peoples, we would be reporting to a friendly street corner conquistador today. I’m sure as an Orthodox you are aware of the sack of Constantinople, the Teutonic Western murderers that were defeated by Saint Alexander Nevsky, etc.
 
steve93 said:
I admit that Luther was a madman, but what were Northern Europeans supposed to do? Just lie there and wait to be killed by bloodthirsty Hapsburgs? If it were not for the sacrifice of the Germanic peoples, we would be reporting to a friendly street corner conquistador today. I’m sure as an Orthodox you are aware of the sack of Constantinople, the Teutonic Western murderers that were defeated by Saint Alexander Nevsky, etc.
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I don’t think this is the thread to discuss what Luther should have done. All I will say is I wish he acted more like Maximos the confessor more than how he actually acted.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
I saw that last night and my first thought was, wow, they’re doing it again.

Striking the Coptic wound while the theological iron is hot. I think it says something about the spirit of ultra reformed folks that they wouldn’t even wait, let the dead bury their dead and all that before saying they were never Christian and are subsequently doomed to hell. This sort of appearance can only make pulpit and pen look bad, since they did before when the 21 Coptic Christians were murdered by ISIS (they proclaimed Jesus’ name upon their deaths).

I notice that in order for them to hold their beliefs regarding the non Christianity of Coptics, they must insist that Sola Fide is a necessary doctrine. It is however a doctrine formed specifically out of the reflection and crystallisation of one man, Martin Luther, even if aspects can be found before him in other writers. Do Pulpit and Pen believe they are the only Christians to walk to the earth these last 2000 years? I wouldn’t be surprised.

Also, as Ryan pointed out, the author doesn’t understand the difference between the Greek Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox communions, that we are not one Church. I will give the author at least some credit for quoting Pope Shenouda but why should we trust Pen and Pulpit to expound a theology which they clearly have little knowledge of?
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Never even heard of these guys, Pen and Pulpit , prior to today.

But I think you are correct about the ultra reformed. Matt Slick starts his debates with Catholics by telling them that they are going to hell. :eek:

I mean this is such arrogance and pride in oneself own ability to interpret something that was written well before their time. And when it was written, it wasn’t with the intent of relying on it alone, for matters of faith and morals.

Not to mention so insensitive to make such comments at this time. I can just picture these kinds of people seeing this bloody massacre on the news, and them yelling at the TV and ‘correcting’ the news anchor that: “THEY AREN’T CHRISTIAN, THEY DON’T BELIEVE IN SOLA FIDE!!!”
 
Lenten_ashes said:
The author seems to imply he speaks for all on the reformed side.

pulpitandpen.org/2017/04/09/why-we-should-mourn-for-the-copts-but-not-assume-theyre-christians/

We are preaching a different gospel, apparently.:eek:

So about 1.5 billion Christians, by far the majority of Christendom, all tracing roots back to 33 A.D, are lost souls.

He seems quite certain of himself. I wonder where he got all this authority? Just by picking up a book and reading it?
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It just goes to show one can be self deceived believing in faith alone which contradicts scripture. According to James faith alone is dead.

James2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Not to mention so insensitive to make such comments at this time. I can just picture these kinds of people seeing this bloody massacre on the news, and them yelling at the TV and ‘correcting’ the news anchor that: “THEY AREN’T CHRISTIAN, THEY DON’T BELIEVE IN SOLA FIDE!!!”
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Where I think the ultra reformed folks get it wrong is in their insistence of a correct understanding of salvation as necessary for being considered a Christian. It’s as if one has an incorrect understanding of how they are saved, therefore they cannot be saved. If a man thinks a rope is pulling him out of a pit and finds that the top of the pit there is a man using the rope to pull him up, his he any less saved from the pit?

They have every right to criticise Coptic theology yet they way they do is almost designed to be deliberately offensive. Right after an attack, the dead not yet examined or buried, they use it as an attempt to warn us on the dangers of dying non reformed. It doesn’t matter what the coptics say about Christ or the beliefs they have regarding him, that this was Palm Sunday, the Sunday before Easter in which Coptics, like the rest of believe that Christ’s resurrection saved humanity, no what matters is that we understand how we were saved. Christology mattered to the early Church more than any exact Soteriology and I reckon the Pen and Pulpit folks would chide the early Church for not defining the matter like Luther or Calvin did.

To get some balance I have sent an invitation to the Pen and Pulpit people to see if any of them would like to come and defend their perspective. It seems unfair of us to just bag on them and not let them at least defend themselves.
 
My “Bible Believing Christian” friend told me the same thing this morning when I asked him about the attacks in Egypt. Sigh 😦
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Where I think the ultra reformed folks get it wrong is in their insistence of a correct understanding of salvation as necessary for being considered a Christian. It’s as if one has an incorrect understanding of how they are saved, therefore they cannot be saved. If a man thinks a rope is pulling him out of a pit and finds that the top of the pit there is a man using the rope to pull him up, his he any less saved from the pit?

They have every right to criticise Coptic theology yet they way they do is almost designed to be deliberately offensive. Right after an attack, the dead not yet examined or buried, they use it as an attempt to warn us on the dangers of dying non reformed. It doesn’t matter what the coptics say about Christ or the beliefs they have regarding him, that this was Palm Sunday, the Sunday before Easter in which Coptics, like the rest of believe that Christ’s resurrection saved humanity, no what matters is that we understand how we were saved. Christology mattered to the early Church more than any exact Soteriology and I reckon the Pen and Pulpit folks would chide the early Church for not defining the matter like Luther or Calvin did.

To get some balance I have sent an invitation to the Pen and Pulpit people to see if any of them would like to come and defend their perspective. It seems unfair of us to just bag on them and not let them at least defend themselves.
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Awesome.

Hope they accept and come here and present their case.

Because there was a comment there about how they think historical Christianity is their brand…the reformed version. Love to see what evidence there is of that.
 
ltwin said:
He has an opinion, just like the Pope has an opinion, and just like everyone else on earth has an opinion.
Click to expand...
Yes. I poked around the site for a bit and apparently it is the author’s opinion that he is right and everyone who does not agree with his idea of Christianity is WRONG. 🤷
 
Wampa said:
My “Bible Believing Christian” friend told me the same thing this morning when I asked him about the attacks in Egypt. Sigh 😦
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Yeah, ^^^ see this is what I have often encountered.

Everyone with a high school education and a bible is now a scholar of some sort and you had better buy into their soteriology, or else… :rolleyes:
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Yeah, ^^^ see this is what I have often encountered.

Everyone with a high school education and a bible is now a scholar of some sort and you had better buy into their soteriology, or else… :rolleyes:
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I used to a Protestant. I though I could “save” Protestantism by showing the error of Calvinism. It made sense at the time. 😦
 
Jon,

I was listening to a former Protestant who has a PhD and so well versed in Scripture and he said the Church has never stated that you had to be Catholic to go to heaven…

It is more, in his words, going to heaven using a driftwood vs using all the helps within the full doctrine of faith.

Vatican II has the harshest words for Catholics who are given all the graces but do not live in charity for not only will they receive damnation, but be that much more punished in hell.
 
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