Mushy worship music...

[Bruised_Reed]

Hey,

I find that the music commonly played in non-liturgical Catholic worship settings (and even sometimes liturgical settings) to be overly mushy, modern, protestant, emotional and even effeminate.

(…)
Thoughts?

Your OP is specfic that you are talking about events outside Mass or for personal use. In that case, I say different strokes for different folks.

I prefer the hymns from years ago because the lyrics are mini-catchisms, the music is singable and, without exception, are reverent.

Newer songs tilt toward “aren’t we fabulous” (TM Amy Welborn) lyrically; are sometimes out of range for the average singer; and often sound like from a musical that Dick Van **** would be in. And those songs typically neuter God. And I think this is different from the Praise music you referenced.

But. For praise events, conferences or other, why not? People have different tastes and needs spiritually. As long as they are getting a solid diet fof reverent liturgies then the more contemporary praise music can minister to them in another way. The songs might be lighter than a hymn of old but instead of effeminate, how about tender? As one of my favorite CCM songs says:

He worships while he grooves, she prays and barely moves
but they’re both reflecting pure devotion…

Again outside of Mass, I think this is totally fine.

 

[Dee_S]

…though I have noted over the years it seems here a CAF, the need for an emotional lift comes more from those who are wanting chant more than something like LifeTeen…

Seems a case of ‘the pot calling the kettle black’ - although I do sympathize with anyone having to endure poorly rendered (awful) church music. This happens just as much in the EF as it does in the OF (I talk from experience) and just as much aggravation and upset is caused by choirs and music in both. That is a fact of life that will not be disputed, I’m sure.* Just that it’s more tolerable when it’s the type of music you like, in the setting you like.*

Possibly it’s a case of musical tastes? To have mind and body uplifted in prayer does require that the music strikes a chord in one’s soul.

It’s in the “active participation in the liturgy” required of us by the Church - that we break against the rock…if the music does not agree with a persons particular/preferred spirituality…they are going to find it very difficult, if not impossible, to fulfil this obligation.

“The liturgy is the public worship of the Church. Now, the Church praying is the priest at the altar with all the ministers and all the faithful. Thus, the liturgy is not the sum of the ***personal ***prayers of the faithful while o the altar the Sacred Mysteries unfold. Rather, it is the one, unanimous, common prayer of the whole Church, united to allow Christ to hear the unique voice of His Spouse, and to unite ourselves to the voice of Christ who intercedes with the Father for her. It is the “one heart and one soul” of the Apostles realized in public prayer.”

"…But to knowingly and willingly disdain to respond to the priest and unite oneself to the common prayers, positions, and chant etc., is to shut oneself up in a personal religion (akin to a Protestant mentality) that is no longer “liturgy”.(my bold)
taken from Participation in the Liturgy by Fr Michael Simoulin published in The Angelus

 

[Dee_S]

Except that catholics wrote that to be a theme song for the Steubenville youth conference.

nothing protestant about it.

thanks for that info. I’ve just watched the video clip on that link…and there is **nothing **not Catholic about it.

In fact, I loved it and have sent the link on to my children. It looks like it was beautifully done and was very well received by the university students - who it was intended for.

The liturgical parts appeared to be carried out with reverence. We are only seeing short ‘shots’ of the whole conference, so it cannot be taken that all was happening at the same time

Perhaps not my taste in music, but it was good music in itself.

 

[Dee_S]

Making religious music a matter of taste, with conservatives going in for one kind of emotion whilst progressives go in for another, is an easy way of not looking at the problem.

Sure, any kind of music will create an emotional response. That’s what music does. But since we humans are single entities composed of body and soul, the emotion must go with an idea, something to get emotional about. Music is a language, not just an arrangement of notes. ‘Sad’ music for example goes with the idea of loss, not necessarily a specific loss, just loss in general (though the hearer might relate it to something specific) ‘Happy’ music goes with a very different idea. One cannot tie it to the notion of loss.

In this optic, music like Gregorian Chant and the music of the OP’s link do not relate to the same idea; theoretically, yes - they both tie up with God - but in concrete, no. The God experienced in Pentecostal music is not the same as the God of Gregorian Chant (and other kinds of music that have the same generic effect as Gregorian Chant).

I can’t use a line of reasoning to prove this. One either sees, or rather hears it, or one doesn’t. It has nothing to do with sincerity or the doctrinal orthodoxy of the lyrics. It does matter. The supernatural in a liturgy - I prefer ‘supernatural’ to the beaten up word ‘reverent’ - is something specific: it is a specific effect created by specific means. A priest needs to wear vestments; it doesn’t work if he is in civvies, even if in a business suit. One needs gestures like genuflecting, kneeling, bowing, things one doesn’t do outside a church. The music, too, needs to be of a specific kind.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Making religious music a matter of taste, with conservatives going in for one kind of emotion whilst progressives go in for another, is an easy way of not looking at the problem.

Sure, any kind of music will create an emotional response. That’s what music does. But since we humans are single entities composed of body and soul, the emotion must go with an idea, something to get emotional about. Music is a language, not just an arrangement of notes. ‘Sad’ music for example goes with the idea of loss, not necessarily a specific loss, just loss in general (though the hearer might relate it to something specific). ‘Happy’ music goes with a very different idea. One cannot tie it to the notion of loss.

In this optic, music like Gregorian Chant and the music of the OP’s link do not relate to the same idea; theoretically, yes - they both tie up with God - but in concrete, no. The God experienced in Pentecostal music is not the same as the God of Gregorian Chant (and other kinds of music that have the same generic effect as Gregorian Chant).

I can’t use a line of reasoning to prove this. One either sees, or rather hears it, or one doesn’t. It has nothing to do with the doctrinal orthodoxy of the lyrics. It does matter. The supernatural in a liturgy - I prefer ‘supernatural’ to the beaten up word ‘reverent’ - is something specific: it is a specific effect created by specific means. A priest needs to wear vestments; it doesn’t work if he is in civvies, even if in a business suit. One needs gestures like genuflecting, kneeling, bowing, things one doesn’t do outside a church. The music, too, needs to be of a specific kind.

 

[Wryman]

In my experience, it all starts and ends with the priest. The parish will have the kind of music the priest likes. Period. Some priests don’t care and will put the decision on a music director, but that’s saying the same thing, really.

 

[clem456]

Emotions are part of the whole person. They can be a powerful mover for conversion, prayer, comtemplation, etc etc…
Reason as well… is part of the whole person and can be a powerful factor. Depends how the individual is composed. What moves one person to conversion might draw a smirk of indifference from the next person.
We have to be careful to make an effort to appreciate the authentic expressions of faith that do not mesh with our preconceived notions.

It is not wrong at all for music to have a strong emotional content. Speaking for myself, it is not good to go seeking tears or joy for their own sake, or to base my experience of God solely on my emotions, or on my intellect for that matter. We are whole people not compartmentalized into emotions and intellect. The music we sing on Good Friday is moving. We pick from several different eras from ancient to modern. But I would like to think that the emotions are not the end result, conversion is.

God is not bound or contained by any one particular type of music. Some music conveys God’s presence better than others for certain individuals, but tastes are tastes. God is not bound by tastes and can be experienced in an culture, language, or music that seeks Him.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Some people love the stuff. As to my experience, I went to a Protestant school to 8th grade and was inundated with it. I didn’t like it then and I like it even less now. I associate it with the kind of worship that has hands raised up in the air, clapping, and the like. For some people it works, and I’ve seen incredibly religious people who love it. It’s not for me though, and it’s a huge distraction to my worship. I’m not going to say it’s wrong because if it is truly working for people then who am I to call it bad? I know that for me, however, I need solemn, prayerful music to direct my prayer (or silence).

I will say this: it would be nice if not almost all of the churches in my area had this praise and worship music. It’s tough to find traditional music, much less Gregorian Chant.

 

[agapewolf]

thanks for that info. I’ve just watched the video clip on that link…and there is **nothing **not Catholic about it.

In fact, I loved it and have sent the link on to my children. It looks like it was beautifully done and was very well received by the university students - who it was intended for.

The liturgical parts appeared to be carried out with reverence. We are only seeing short ‘shots’ of the whole conference, so it cannot be taken that all was happening at the same time

Perhaps not my taste in music, but it was good music in itself.

It’s actually a promo video for High schoolers to attend the youth conferences. The theme songs, in general, are not very good. I play in the band for one of the high school conferences and we usually try to avoid playing the theme songs. They are not actually going to use theme songs anymore.

The masses/adoration times are very reverent, and according to the rubrics. Last year, we had 4 bishops at one conference. (When Burke was still in St Louis, he came a few times to it).

 

[aspirant]

A variety of musical genres and styles are allowed within Catholicism, as with other arts, and I believe that’s a very good thing.

At the same time, I don’t think we Catholics have to personally enjoy each of them. I don’t, for example, much like or enjoy Baroque art and music. Personally, I would much prefer Byzantine iconography, Gothic art, Gregorian chant, or Indian bhajans.

That doesn’t make either me or Baroque-lovers any more or less Catholic, it just means our personal tastes differ. I think that’s OK. When I’m in the presence of Baroque art, I strive to be grateful for the rich aesthetic variety of Catholicism and for the sake of the Baroque-lovers rather than focus on the fact that I dislike it so much.

 

[aspirant]

Many people feel a stronger connection to God through the old ways. The more reverent ways.

I can’t help but imagine that some people may have said the same of Gregorian chant, organ music, Schubert’s Ave Maria, and hymns such as “Faith of Our Fathers.” All such things were, at one time, musical innovations.

It would be nice if every Parish offered the old ways for every Catholic who wants

It would be nice if we all had access to those musical genres we personally appreciate, but realistically, there are limits. A parish or diocese can only do so many Masses and other communal worship gatherings in a day, or even a month. Alas, each of our preferences may not be satisfied.

 

[aTraditionalist]

This is one of many reasons I’m very happy to have found the Latin Mass.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[Elizium23]

Here is the worst offender in a category of so-called Christian music I have termed as “porn hymns”

Warning: explicit lyrics, parental advisory.

The apparent formula is to write a song about the marital embrace, with terms more suitable for a pornography film than for a married couple, and then either do it in the second person, or just replace all references to “lover” or “baby, baby, baby” or “sweet thing” with “Jesus” and “Christ”, sort of like that Simpsons episode…

 

[Dee_S]

It’s actually a promo video for High schoolers to attend the youth conferences. The theme songs, in general, are not very good. I play in the band for one of the high school conferences and we usually try to avoid playing the theme songs. They are not actually going to use theme songs anymore.

The masses/adoration times are very reverent, and according to the rubrics. Last year, we had 4 bishops at one conference. (When Burke was still in St Louis, he came a few times to it).

thanks for the info, did not realize that it was a promo video. It’s interesting to have an inside view from a musician. The theme songs sounded good to me, at least, not offensive…but know what you mean.

It’s also good to have eyewitness account of the reverence and rubrics. It is rather boring that words and now video clips, are taken out of context and used to bolster out dated opinions.

This is a link to Musicam Sacram (Instruction on Music in the Liturgy) especially helpful to composers/musicians:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html

Just a thought, and not a provocation to OP’s but it occurred to me that yourself (and other young musicians, especially if they play in a band) must get tired of being ‘labelled’ into the Protestant category just because you’re not chanting or exclusively using the organ…any keyboard besides that being viewed with suspicion.

 

[Dee_S]

I can’t help but imagine that some people may have said the same of Gregorian chant, organ music, Schubert’s Ave Maria, and hymns such as “Faith of Our Fathers.” All such things were, at one time, musical innovations.

It would be nice if we all had access to those musical genres we personally appreciate, but realistically, there are limits. A parish or diocese can only do so many Masses and other communal worship gatherings in a day, or even a month. Alas, each of our preferences may not be satisfied.

:thumbsup:nicely put…and very true.

As for “Faith of Our Fathers”, I used to like it for the first 100 hearings…but Faber’s usual ‘sickly-sweet’ lyrics pall, and never appealed to the Newman’s of his day either.

 

[agapewolf]

Here is the worst offender in a category of so-called Christian music I have termed as “porn hymns”

Warning: explicit lyrics, parental advisory.

The apparent formula is to write a song about the marital embrace, with terms more suitable for a pornography film than for a married couple, and then either do it in the second person, or just replace all references to “lover” or “baby, baby, baby” or “sweet thing” with “Jesus” and “Christ”, sort of like that Simpsons episode…

Apparently you haven’t read song of songs. The most commented on book in the bible by the saints.

There is nothing explicit or pornographic in that song, and you saying so is dishonest and snarky. There was nothing about “the marital embrace” in that song.

God does want to love us and have us love him with an eros love-- which aligns with agape.

Please read Theology of the Body.

 

[Elizium23]

Of course I have read Song of Songs, which is appropriate Scripture for a Nuptial Mass.

The above hymn was used in Ordinary Time Masses at a Newman Center, where college students should be focusing on their studies and spiritual growth, and the vast majority are unmarried.

Yes, it was Catholic Masses where I was made to sing this junk! “Spread wide” and “your fragrance so intoxicating” is more suitable for a pornography film and I hesitate to use it even here.

Erotic love for Jesus from a Christian human is inappropriate. Erotic love for one’s spouse mirrors the self-giving love of the Holy Trinity. Jesus is in the form of a man - are we human men supposed to have erotic, homosexual love for Jesus Christ?

 

[agapewolf]

Of course I have read Song of Songs, which is appropriate Scripture for a Nuptial Mass.

The above hymn was used in Ordinary Time Masses at a Newman Center, where college students should be focusing on their studies and spiritual growth, and the vast majority are unmarried.

Yes, it was Catholic Masses where I was made to sing this junk! “Spread wide” and “your fragrance so intoxicating” is more suitable for a pornography film and I hesitate to use it even here.

Erotic love for Jesus from a Christian human is inappropriate. Erotic love for one’s spouse mirrors the self-giving love of the Holy Trinity. Jesus is in the form of a man - are we human men supposed to have erotic, homosexual love for Jesus Christ?

Again, read Theology of the Body. You are approaching this from a puritanical point of view. I would venture to guess that you are also highly STJ in the myerrs briggs.

It’s not junk. Jesus’ arms are spread wide. Speaking about fragrance of Christ (which is a prayer from Mother Theresa by the way) is not pornographic. Fragrance is referred to in Song of Songs all over. NOT PORN.

Also, listen to what Fulton Sheen had to say about the Cross being holy nuptials.

Get your mind out of the gutter.

 

[clem456]

Of course I have read Song of Songs, which is appropriate Scripture for a Nuptial Mass.

The above hymn was used in Ordinary Time Masses at a Newman Center, where college students should be focusing on their studies and spiritual growth, and the vast majority are unmarried.

Yes, it was Catholic Masses where I was made to sing this junk! “Spread wide” and “your fragrance so intoxicating” is more suitable for a pornography film and I hesitate to use it even here.

Erotic love for Jesus from a Christian human is inappropriate. Erotic love for one’s spouse mirrors the self-giving love of the Holy Trinity. Jesus is in the form of a man - are we human men supposed to have erotic, homosexual love for Jesus Christ?

You are being unfair to the song in question.

 

[Sarabande]

Here is the worst offender in a category of so-called Christian music I have termed as “porn hymns”

Warning: explicit lyrics, parental advisory.

The apparent formula is to write a song about the marital embrace, with terms more suitable for a pornography film than for a married couple, and then either do it in the second person, or just replace all references to “lover” or “baby, baby, baby” or “sweet thing” with “Jesus” and “Christ”, sort of like that Simpsons episode…

Although this kind of music is personally a bit spiritually hollow for me, I didn’t think it was anywhere near to pornographic. The text wasn’t as beautifully stated, but it was similar to Song of Songs in how it describes love for God and God’s love for the speaker. The only part where I guess I could see someone trying to read more into it would be:

“I find I’m moving
To the rhythms of Your grace
Your fragrance is intoxicating
In our secret place.”

But even then, there really isn’t anything wrong being said there. I don’t see it any more ‘erotic’ as this section from Song of Songs. As a 14-year-old girl, reading it for the first time in my Old Testament classes, I thought this was some of the most romantic writings I have ever read at that point in my life. I loved the poetry in this book of the OT and read it often. The imagery is so colorful, warm and almost creamy. But before we had more study on it through our priest, I looked at it merely as secular love poetry.

Song of Songs 7:7-13
“How beautiful you are, how pleasing, my love, my delight!
Your very figure is like a palm tree, your breasts are like clusters.
I said: I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its branches.
Now let your breasts be like clusters of the vine and the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like an excellent wine - that flows smoothly for my lover, spreading over the lips and the teeth.
I belong to my lover and for me he yearns.
Come, my lover, let us go forth to the fields and spend the night among the villages.
Let us go early to the vineyards, and see if the vines are in bloom,
If the buds have opened, if the pomegranates have blossomed;
There I will give you my love.”