Mushy worship music...

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I thought it was pretty basic catholic understanding that the marriage of the lamb-- the wedding feast is mass. Jesus is the bridegroom-- referred to as that all over scripture. Consumates his marriage with us (see douey rheims translation for “it is finished” actually translated “It is consumated”) , the church, at the mass. We become one flesh with him when we receive Communion.

The priest is in the person of Christ-- and that marriage is consumated at the altar.
 
You left out an important part of my phrase. We can accept the writings of St. John of the Cross as personal revelation, we can accept them as pious tradition, we can accept them as orthodox writings, but we cannot on our own authority accept them as Church teaching unless the Holy Father says they is part of Tradition.
 
The double entendres of this song are indeed cleverly crafted, and some of you have failed to grasp what is obvious to many male teenagers with a steady diet of porn. These are not poorly-written lyrics, they just belong to a Protestant praise-and-worship song that is not appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, but perhaps a Baptist wedding liturgy with electric guitars, drums and a lot of hand-clapping.

I am sorry that you are offended by my comment, but it was meant rhetorically, and seems to me the logical conclusion of some of the reasoning presented by others in this thread.
…hopefully it’s not Christian male teenagers who have a “steady diet of porn”:eek:

:Dbut I get what you mean. It is wrong to use suggestive language that conveys an intimacy best suited to the privacy of sacramental marriage. Even the Song of Songs would be inappropriate to use as a hymn (never knew it was read at a Nuptial Mass).

In his encyclical Deus Caritas Est, Pope Benedict XVI explains the difference between natural human love and love that is supernatural, it’s quite an eye opener and might be of help in this discussion:

“Eros” and “Agape” – difference and unity
3. That love between man and woman which is neither planned nor willed, but somehow imposes itself upon human beings, was called* eros* by the ancient Greeks. Let us note straight away that the Greek Old Testament uses the word * eros* only twice, while the New Testament does not use it at all:… The tendency to avoid the word eros, together with the new vision of love expressed through the word agape, clearly point to something new and distinct about the Christian understanding of love.

… According to Friedrich Nietzsche, Christianity had poisoned eros, which for its part, while not completely succumbing, gradually degenerated into vice.[1] Here the German philosopher was expressing a widely-held perception: doesn’t the Church, with all her commandments and prohibitions, turn to bitterness the most precious thing in life? Doesn’t she blow the whistle just when the joy which is the Creator’s gift offers us a happiness which is itself a certain foretaste of the Divine?
  1. But is this the case? Did Christianity really destroy* eros*? Let us take a look at the pre- Christian world. The Greeks—not unlike other cultures—considered* eros* principally as a kind of intoxication, the overpowering of reason by a “divine madness” which tears man away from his finite existence and enables him, in the very process of being overwhelmed by divine power, to experience supreme happiness.
All other powers in heaven and on earth thus appear secondary… In the religions, this attitude found expression in fertility cults, part of which was the “sacred” prostitution which flourished in many temples. Eros was thus celebrated as divine power, as fellowship with the Divine.

The Old Testament firmly opposed this form of religion,…combating it as a perversion of religiosity. But it in no way rejected* eros* as such; rather, it declared war on a warped and destructive form of it, because this counterfeit divinization of* eros* actually strips it of its dignity and dehumanizes it.

Indeed, the prostitutes in the temple, who had to bestow this divine intoxication, were not treated as human beings and persons, but simply used as a means of arousing “divine madness”: far from being goddesses, they were human persons being exploited. An intoxicated and undisciplined eros, then, is not an ascent in “ecstasy” towards the Divine, but a fall, a degradation of man.

Evidently, *eros *needs to be disciplined and purified if it is to provide not just fleeting pleasure, but a certain foretaste of the pinnacle of our existence, of that beatitude for which our whole being yearns.
  1. Two things emerge clearly from this rapid overview of the concept of eros past and present. First, there is a certain relationship between love and the Divine: love promises infinity, eternity—a reality far greater and totally other than our everyday existence. Yet we have also seen that the way to attain this goal is not simply by submitting to instinct. Purification and growth in maturity are called for; and these also pass through the path of renunciation. Far from rejecting or “poisoning” eros, they heal it and restore its true grandeur.
This is due first and foremost to the fact that man is a being made up of body and soul. Man is truly himself when his body and soul are intimately united; the challenge of* eros* can be said to be truly overcome when this unification is achieved.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
 
Thank you for finding Deus Caritas Est. That is exactly the affirmation I was looking for that certain concepts from Theology of the Body have been incorporated into Holy Tradition. I can see that eros and agape are two halves of a complete love that is both giving and receiving.
 
The writings of one Pope may be incorporated into Tradition, but not by that Pope himself! Only by later Pontiffs affirming that these teachings contained therein are in harmony and building on Holy Tradition.
With all due respect to Brother JR, whoever that might be, what the Catholic Church teaches is:
Dogmatic Constitution on the Church:
Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.
we need affirmation from at least Benedict XVI
Even assuming this were true (it is not, see above), Pope Benedict wrote: “True, eros tends to rise ‘in ecstasy’ towards the Divine, to lead us beyond ourselves; yet for this very reason it calls for a path of ascent, renunciation, purification and healing… eros and agape—ascending love and descending love—can never be completely separated. The more the two, in their different aspects, find a proper unity in the one reality of love, the more the true nature of love in general is realized… the Fathers of the Church saw this inseparable connection between ascending and descending love, between eros which seeks God and agape which passes on the gift received, symbolized in various ways… when the two dimensions are totally cut off from one another, the result is a caricature or at least an impoverished form of love.”
 
Post by Brother JR Re: Vatican II as interpreted by SSPX
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JReducation:
By the way, I do not cling to the five popes. I am making a point that five popes in a row cannot be wrong and one archbishop right. The fullness of truth resides with the magisterium, but the Archbishop is not the magisterium nor does he posess the authority of the magisterium. Only popes posess that authority to teach in the name of the magisterium.
Re: SSPX Update - Redux
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JReducation:
The second problem here is that several of you are quoting Doctors of the Church. However, I will remind you that as holy and wise as the Doctors of the Church have been, they are not authorities. They are theologians and teachers. But anything that they have written must be adopted by the Church as policy. If it has not been adopted as a policy of the Church, then it cannot be used as an argument against the Holy See. The Holy See trumps every doctor, every saint, every council and every pope that came before. It is only bound by revealed moral law and dogma. The Doctors of the Church are not a source of revelation. One has to be very careful to read the Doctors within the context of Church tradition and Church governance. We must always ask, “Is this an accepted Church policy?” If it is not, then no one is bound to whatever the Doctor is saying, even though it can be very wise.
In light of this, I can say that the concept of eros as love for God is part of Holy Tradition. As for the Mass-as-wedding-feast and the altar-as-priest’s-marriage-bed and the passion-and-crucifixion-as-nuptials, I have yet to see doctrinal evidence.
 
:Dbut I get what you mean. It is wrong to use suggestive language that conveys an intimacy best suited to the privacy of sacramental marriage. Even the Song of Songs would be inappropriate to use as a hymn (never knew it was read at a Nuptial Mass).
Oh, yes. I can’t remember the exact verses, but Chapter 2 of Song of Songs is a very popular reading choice amongst bridal couples and one that is offered as an Old Testament reading suggestion in “Together for Life”. My husband and I actually used it for one of our readings and many Catholic weddings I do uses it.

I’m wondering… is there anything that speaks of inappropriate bible verses to be used as hymns or other sacred music? There is much debate on style of music for liturgy, but I’ve never heard of debate in regards to biblical text used in music, especially if it is taken word for word.
 
Thank you for finding Deus Caritas Est. That is exactly the affirmation I was looking for that certain concepts from Theology of the Body have been incorporated into Holy Tradition. I can see that eros and agape are two halves of a complete love that is both giving and receiving.
:curtsey:…it is my signature, after all:D
 
We can accept the writings of St. John of the Cross as personal revelation, we can accept them as pious tradition, we can accept them as orthodox writings
If so, then we could hardly conclude that such metaphor is something forbidden to Christians. Especially when popes say things such as “John of the Cross is a man in love with God. He treated familiarly with Him and spoke constantly of Him. He carried God in his heart and on his lips. God was his true treasure, his most real world. Even before opening his mouth to proclaim or sing the divine mystery, he is God’s witness. That is why he speaks of Him so passionately and so uncommonly convincingly… Like the prophets and apostles, the Saint possesses the gift of the efficacious and penetrating word. He not only has the power of voicing and sharing his experience through symbols and poems which are shot through with lyric beauty, but he also expresses himself exquisitely…” :o
 
Now when did I or anyone ever say that sexual metaphors should be forbidden to Christians? Besides the Shakers, maybe?

I can certainly see that popes spoke highly of St. John. Certainly his personal sanctity is not at issue here. They can certainly affirm that his writings are “shot through with lyric beauty” without saying that they are part of Holy Tradition and all Christians are bound to full assent of faith to them.
 
[

In light of this, I can say that the concept of eros](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4822188&postcount=7) as love for God is part of Holy Tradition. As for the Mass-as-wedding-feast and the altar-as-priest’s-marriage-bed and the passion-and-crucifixion-as-nuptials, I have yet to see doctrinal evidence.

Oh for goodness sake. It’s basic catholic teaching.

There is a marriage bed in a mosaic above the altar at the cathedral basilica in St. Louis

Read the catechism.
Read post 67
 
Theology of the Body discusses this issue in depth, in light of Ephesians Chapter 5:
Instructions for Christian Households
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing** her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself** as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
 
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