P
Philthy
Guest
I think this is better termed as “awareness” of the truth.
- Status
R
rr1213
Guest
Here is one of my favorites from my Episcopal Church days. Catholics may be familiar with the text…
*Tell out, my soul, the greatness of the Lord!
Unnumbered blessings give my spirit voice;
tender to me the promise of his word;
in God my Savior shall my heart rejoice.
Tell out, my soul, the greatness of his Name!
Make known his might, the deeds his arm has done;
his mercy sure, from age to age to same;
his holy Name–the Lord, the Mighty One.
Tell out, my soul, the greatness of his might!
Powers and dominions lay their glory by.
Proud hearts and stubborn wills are put to flight,
the hungry fed, the humble lifted high.
Tell out, my soul, the glories of his word!
Firm is his promise, and his mercy sure.
Tell out, my soul, the greatness of the Lord
to children’s children and for evermore! *
The music itself can also be magnificient, at least as it was played on our tracker organ at my former parish. You can hear the tune at the link below, albeit with a tinny synthesizer-like sound.
oremus.org/hymnal/t/t036.html
*Tell out, my soul, the greatness of the Lord!
Unnumbered blessings give my spirit voice;
tender to me the promise of his word;
in God my Savior shall my heart rejoice.
Tell out, my soul, the greatness of his Name!
Make known his might, the deeds his arm has done;
his mercy sure, from age to age to same;
his holy Name–the Lord, the Mighty One.
Tell out, my soul, the greatness of his might!
Powers and dominions lay their glory by.
Proud hearts and stubborn wills are put to flight,
the hungry fed, the humble lifted high.
Tell out, my soul, the glories of his word!
Firm is his promise, and his mercy sure.
Tell out, my soul, the greatness of the Lord
to children’s children and for evermore! *
The music itself can also be magnificient, at least as it was played on our tracker organ at my former parish. You can hear the tune at the link below, albeit with a tinny synthesizer-like sound.
oremus.org/hymnal/t/t036.html
F
FrankLawrence
Guest
I don’t feel that music can accurately be used as a source of apologetics. I say this, simply because music has no authority, or at least, no divinely granted authority. The Church has that authority, as the Magisterium guides us in proper interpretation of Scripture and Tradition. There is no Church doctine that grants, “infallibility” to music lyrics. So, we can not say that such and such is true by the authority that it such and such a song says so, unless we are refering to canticles in Scripture. Even then, the proper interpretation must be given to that Scripture.
I can, however, provide a list of modern “Christian” songs that I feel as Catholics, we should avoid due to either faulty theology or what I (perhaps erroneously) perceive to be subtle anti-Catholic lyrics.
“Blessed Assurance,” - Third Day (and others) “Fly Away” - FFH, “I Wish We’d All Been Ready,” - DC Talk or Larry Norman, “You Are The Answer,” - Point of Grace, “That’s All The Lumber” - Ceili Rain, “You Are” - Aaron and Jeoffrey, “Between You And Me” - DC Talk, “You Alone” - David Crowder Band (and others), “Look Up” - Stan Pollman, “Mediterranean Wholebook News” -Apologetix, “L.S.P.” - Apologetix, and any given song by Iconoclast, since they seem to be named after a heretical cult.
While many modern Christian rock songs have lyrics that likely misinterpret John 3:5 as to meaning something other than the Sacrament of Baptism, in my opinion, we can still accept those songs, since Protestants(and Catholics) who are Baptised as adults are also, “born-again” as adults.
Some Protestant songs have amazingly Catholic sounding lyrics, such as “Sea of Faces” by Kutless, or “Entertaining Angels,” by the Newsboys. Barlowgirl covers the old hymn, “For The Beauty of the Earth,” leaving in what seems to be some blatantly Catholic lyrics.
Catholics have John Michael Talbot and an indie label group called News At Eleven who have some wonderful songs. I’d like to know of some more Catholic artists/groups in the current Christian rock scene, since I must admit that even though I am Catholic, most of the music I listen to is by Protestants, even some of the groups that had some inappropriate songs I mentioned above.
I can, however, provide a list of modern “Christian” songs that I feel as Catholics, we should avoid due to either faulty theology or what I (perhaps erroneously) perceive to be subtle anti-Catholic lyrics.
“Blessed Assurance,” - Third Day (and others) “Fly Away” - FFH, “I Wish We’d All Been Ready,” - DC Talk or Larry Norman, “You Are The Answer,” - Point of Grace, “That’s All The Lumber” - Ceili Rain, “You Are” - Aaron and Jeoffrey, “Between You And Me” - DC Talk, “You Alone” - David Crowder Band (and others), “Look Up” - Stan Pollman, “Mediterranean Wholebook News” -Apologetix, “L.S.P.” - Apologetix, and any given song by Iconoclast, since they seem to be named after a heretical cult.
While many modern Christian rock songs have lyrics that likely misinterpret John 3:5 as to meaning something other than the Sacrament of Baptism, in my opinion, we can still accept those songs, since Protestants(and Catholics) who are Baptised as adults are also, “born-again” as adults.
Some Protestant songs have amazingly Catholic sounding lyrics, such as “Sea of Faces” by Kutless, or “Entertaining Angels,” by the Newsboys. Barlowgirl covers the old hymn, “For The Beauty of the Earth,” leaving in what seems to be some blatantly Catholic lyrics.
Catholics have John Michael Talbot and an indie label group called News At Eleven who have some wonderful songs. I’d like to know of some more Catholic artists/groups in the current Christian rock scene, since I must admit that even though I am Catholic, most of the music I listen to is by Protestants, even some of the groups that had some inappropriate songs I mentioned above.
R
rr1213
Guest
Music inspires and uplifts our souls. It also serves to form our conscience and mind about what the church teaches. Do you not see an apologetic moment when singing The Church’s One Foundation, especially the verse about being torn asunder by heresy and schism? Do you not think that the “love songs” of the 1960s and 1970s had an effect on the growth of free love? (GREAT music, but the lyrics?) Or that today’s “Gansta Rap” has no influence in increasing vulgarity and lack of respect for women among our youth today? Music is powerful, VERY powerful.
E
ecsouth
Guest
Hello -
Since I am a late arrival to this thread, please disregard this if it would divert the discussion from the direction that has already been established. . .
I’m wondering if perhaps “catechesis”, rather than “apologetics”, isn’t a better choice of terminology in this context. I see music as having a strong catechetical dimension (for good or for ill) but I’m not so sure I see it as being an apologetic tool.
Ed
F
FrankLawrence
Guest
Just for clarity, can someone please define the term “apologetics.” My understanding is that “apologetics” essentially is attempting to defend one’s faith and beliefs by showing how they concur with those of what one believes to be an authoritative source on the matter. I don’t see how music can be perceived as an authoritative source. My definition of “apologetics” may be incorrect, though, hence the confusion.
I agree, however, the music can be very inspiring, uplifting, and used for the catechisis of children, and even adults. I also see how secular music, or “Christian” music with heretical theology behind it, can be used to corrupt children, and even adults.
I agree, however, the music can be very inspiring, uplifting, and used for the catechisis of children, and even adults. I also see how secular music, or “Christian” music with heretical theology behind it, can be used to corrupt children, and even adults.
R
rr1213
Guest
Good point. You’re probbly right here.
R
rr1213
Guest
I am currently attending a LCMS Church. One of the hymns we sang today would certain fit the bill as to reflecting theology…
Salvation Unto Us Has Come
*Salvation unto us has come
By God’s free grace and favor;
Good works cannot avert our doom,
They help and save us never.
Faith looks to Jesus Christ alone,
Who did for all the world atone;
He is our one redeemer.
What God did in his Law demand
And none to him could render
Caused wrath and woe on every hand
For man, the vile offender.
Our flesh has not those pure desires
The spirit of the Law requires,
And lost is our condition.
It was a false, misleading dream
That God his Law had given
That sinners could themselves redeem
And by their works gain heaven.
The Law is but a mirror bright
To bring the inbred sin to light
That lurks within our nature.
Since Christ has full atonement made
And brought to us salvation,
Each Christian there-fore may be glad
And build on this foundation.
Your grace alone, dear Lord, I plead,
Your death is now my life indeed,
For you have paid my ransom.
Faith clings to Jesus’ cross alone
And rests in him unceasing;
And by its fruits true faith is known,
With love and hope increasing.
For faith alone can justify;
Works serve our neighbor and supply
The proof that faith is living.
All blessing, honor, thanks and praise
To Father, Son, and Spirit,
The God who saved us by his grace;
All glory to his merit.
O triune God in heaven above,
You have revealed your saving love;
Your blessed name we hallow.*
The music can be found here:
lutheran-hymnal.com/online/tlh-377.mid
Salvation Unto Us Has Come
*Salvation unto us has come
By God’s free grace and favor;
Good works cannot avert our doom,
They help and save us never.
Faith looks to Jesus Christ alone,
Who did for all the world atone;
He is our one redeemer.
What God did in his Law demand
And none to him could render
Caused wrath and woe on every hand
For man, the vile offender.
Our flesh has not those pure desires
The spirit of the Law requires,
And lost is our condition.
It was a false, misleading dream
That God his Law had given
That sinners could themselves redeem
And by their works gain heaven.
The Law is but a mirror bright
To bring the inbred sin to light
That lurks within our nature.
Since Christ has full atonement made
And brought to us salvation,
Each Christian there-fore may be glad
And build on this foundation.
Your grace alone, dear Lord, I plead,
Your death is now my life indeed,
For you have paid my ransom.
Faith clings to Jesus’ cross alone
And rests in him unceasing;
And by its fruits true faith is known,
With love and hope increasing.
For faith alone can justify;
Works serve our neighbor and supply
The proof that faith is living.
All blessing, honor, thanks and praise
To Father, Son, and Spirit,
The God who saved us by his grace;
All glory to his merit.
O triune God in heaven above,
You have revealed your saving love;
Your blessed name we hallow.*
The music can be found here:
lutheran-hymnal.com/online/tlh-377.mid
T
Teflon93
Guest
Not out of order at all—that’s what we’re discussing.
I’d agree with you but for the Pentecostals, where the emphasis on strong music programs over the years has drawn a lot of people in. My wife was in a Pentecostal choir; there are a LOT of songs about Christ’s blood washing away our sins which despite the uniformity of theme are quite interesting and diverse musically. In that case, it essentially functioned as apologetics—both in the lyrical sense and in the musical sense, the latter of which stresses the importance of feeling joyful in church.
J
Jessica_Girardi
Guest
Re: Praying is good but learning how to pray is vital.
Praying is a relationship with God. Praying to other titles and names is not in the bible. Moses was used of God and even Esther was used of God we do not pray to them and there is a reason. First because prayer is a relationship with God. Praying to another name is simply stating to have a relationship with someone other than God. But let’s not take my opinion for it let’s examine the bible together…
Genesis 25:21
Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The LORD answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant.
Genesis 25:20-22 (in Context) Genesis 25 (Whole Chapter)
Genesis 32:9
Then Jacob prayed, "O God of my father Abraham, God of my father Isaac, O LORD, who said to me, ‘Go back to your country and your relatives, and I will make you prosper,’
Genesis 32:8-10 (in Context) Genesis 32 (Whole Chapter)
Genesis 32:11
Save me, I pray, from the hand of my brother Esau, for I am afraid he will come and attack me, and also the mothers with their children.
Genesis 32:10-12 (in Context) Genesis 32 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 8:8
Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron and said, “Pray to the LORD to take the frogs away from me and my people, and I will let your people go to offer sacrifices to the LORD.”
Exodus 8:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 8 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 8:9
Moses said to Pharaoh, “I leave to you the honor of setting the time for me to pray for you and your officials and your people that you and your houses may be rid of the frogs, except for those that remain in the Nile.”
Exodus 8:8-10 (in Context) Exodus 8 (Whole Chapter)
The above are examples of praying to God in the Old testament. Now note how we are taught to pray in the New Testament
in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
Romans 1:9-11 (in Context) Romans 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 1:11
as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.
2 Corinthians 1:10-12 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 9:14
And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you.
2 Corinthians 9:13-15 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 1:16
I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.
Ephesians 1:15-17 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Ephesians 6:17-19 (in Context) Ephesians 6 (Whole Chapter)
Philippians 1:4
In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy
Philippians 1:3-5 (in Context) Philippians 1 (Whole Chapter)
Philippians 1:19
Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.
Philippians 1:18-20 (in Context) Philippians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 1:2
Thanksgiving for the Thessalonians’ Faith ] We always thank God for all of you, mentioning you in our prayers.
1 Thessalonians 1:1-3 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Timothy 2:1
Instructions on Worship ] I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—
1 Timothy 2:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Timothy 1:3
Encouragement to Be Faithful ] I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.
2 Timothy 1:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 1 (Whole Chapter)
Philemon 1:4
Thanksgiving and Prayer ] I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers,
Philemon 1:3-5 (in Context) Philemon 1 (Whole Chapter)
See in the above they prayed to Lord,God never to a person who worked for God. Afterall he is the supreme and there is none like him.This whole earth thing is not to make other Gods but to be a relashionship with the one true God. P.S. These are only some scriptures on prayer to view them all search biblegateway.com and enter “pray” and or “prayers”
Praying is a relationship with God. Praying to other titles and names is not in the bible. Moses was used of God and even Esther was used of God we do not pray to them and there is a reason. First because prayer is a relationship with God. Praying to another name is simply stating to have a relationship with someone other than God. But let’s not take my opinion for it let’s examine the bible together…
Genesis 25:21
Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The LORD answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant.
Genesis 25:20-22 (in Context) Genesis 25 (Whole Chapter)
Genesis 32:9
Then Jacob prayed, "O God of my father Abraham, God of my father Isaac, O LORD, who said to me, ‘Go back to your country and your relatives, and I will make you prosper,’
Genesis 32:8-10 (in Context) Genesis 32 (Whole Chapter)
Genesis 32:11
Save me, I pray, from the hand of my brother Esau, for I am afraid he will come and attack me, and also the mothers with their children.
Genesis 32:10-12 (in Context) Genesis 32 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 8:8
Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron and said, “Pray to the LORD to take the frogs away from me and my people, and I will let your people go to offer sacrifices to the LORD.”
Exodus 8:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 8 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 8:9
Moses said to Pharaoh, “I leave to you the honor of setting the time for me to pray for you and your officials and your people that you and your houses may be rid of the frogs, except for those that remain in the Nile.”
Exodus 8:8-10 (in Context) Exodus 8 (Whole Chapter)
The above are examples of praying to God in the Old testament. Now note how we are taught to pray in the New Testament
in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
Romans 1:9-11 (in Context) Romans 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 1:11
as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.
2 Corinthians 1:10-12 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 9:14
And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you.
2 Corinthians 9:13-15 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 1:16
I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.
Ephesians 1:15-17 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Ephesians 6:17-19 (in Context) Ephesians 6 (Whole Chapter)
Philippians 1:4
In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy
Philippians 1:3-5 (in Context) Philippians 1 (Whole Chapter)
Philippians 1:19
Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.
Philippians 1:18-20 (in Context) Philippians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 1:2
Thanksgiving for the Thessalonians’ Faith ] We always thank God for all of you, mentioning you in our prayers.
1 Thessalonians 1:1-3 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Timothy 2:1
Instructions on Worship ] I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—
1 Timothy 2:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Timothy 1:3
Encouragement to Be Faithful ] I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.
2 Timothy 1:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 1 (Whole Chapter)
Philemon 1:4
Thanksgiving and Prayer ] I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers,
Philemon 1:3-5 (in Context) Philemon 1 (Whole Chapter)
See in the above they prayed to Lord,God never to a person who worked for God. Afterall he is the supreme and there is none like him.This whole earth thing is not to make other Gods but to be a relashionship with the one true God. P.S. These are only some scriptures on prayer to view them all search biblegateway.com and enter “pray” and or “prayers”
T
Teflon93
Guest
I presume she meant J.S. Bach and it would be difficult to argue her point for anyone who’s heard any of the many cantatas the great master composed.
J.C. Bach was quite good in his own right as well.
For sheer joy, though, it’s hard to top Mozart. Even his religious works are plucky and fun, I think, whereas J.S. Bach has that profound reverence which creates such awe.
For my money, though, Beethoven’s 9th remains the transcendental musical experience although it’s informed more by the Enlightenment than by theology.
T
Teflon93
Guest
Ave Maria gratia plena,
Maria gratia plena,
Maria gratia plena.
Ave ave Dominus.
Dominus te-cum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus.
Et benedictus.
Et benedictus fructus ventris,
Ventris tui Iesus.
Ave Maria.
Ave Maria Mater Dei.
Ora pro nobis pecatoribus.
Ora ora pro nobis.
Ora ora pro nobis peccatoribus.
Nunc et in hora mortis.
In hora mortis nostrae.
In hora mortis mortis nostrae.
In hora mortis nostrae.
Ave Maria.
Ave Maria gratia plena.
Maria gratia plena.
Maria gratia plena.
Ave ave Dominus.
Dominus te cum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus.
Et benedictus.
Et benedictus fructus ventris,
Ventris tui Iesus.
Ave Maria.
The Ave Maria is of course the Hail Mary translated to song, the English version is below, annotated with the appopriate Catechism passages:
Hail Mary, full of grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of our death.
I would therefore argue that the “Ave Maria” is indeed a vehicle for Catholic Marian doctrine. It is a prayer set to music, and in the very signing of it we pray to Mary.
I’d be interested in knowing how many non-Catholic communities sing the “Ave Maria”.
Maria gratia plena,
Maria gratia plena.
Ave ave Dominus.
Dominus te-cum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus.
Et benedictus.
Et benedictus fructus ventris,
Ventris tui Iesus.
Ave Maria.
Ave Maria Mater Dei.
Ora pro nobis pecatoribus.
Ora ora pro nobis.
Ora ora pro nobis peccatoribus.
Nunc et in hora mortis.
In hora mortis nostrae.
In hora mortis mortis nostrae.
In hora mortis nostrae.
Ave Maria.
Ave Maria gratia plena.
Maria gratia plena.
Maria gratia plena.
Ave ave Dominus.
Dominus te cum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus.
Et benedictus.
Et benedictus fructus ventris,
Ventris tui Iesus.
Ave Maria.
The Ave Maria is of course the Hail Mary translated to song, the English version is below, annotated with the appopriate Catechism passages:
Hail Mary, full of grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of our death.
I would therefore argue that the “Ave Maria” is indeed a vehicle for Catholic Marian doctrine. It is a prayer set to music, and in the very signing of it we pray to Mary.
I’d be interested in knowing how many non-Catholic communities sing the “Ave Maria”.
R
rr1213
Guest
Agreed, although Schubert’s not bad either. I particularly like his German Mass.
T
Teflon93
Guest
I love Schubert, but have not heard his German Mass. Thanks for the tip!
R
rr1213
Guest
In one of the Catholic Churches I’ve visited the Sanctus was from Schubert’s
German Mass. Take a look on Sunday at the various musical settings for the Sanctus in your hymnal, maybe it will be included.
T
Teflon93
Guest
It’s certainly possible—I’ve really got to get a home copy of the hymnal so I can check that out.
I was very happy one Sunday to note that a hymn we sang was set to Beethoven’s “Ode to Joy” (9th Symphony); it’s always great to see such arrangements based on the works of the great masters.
Perhaps poor or dull arrangements might be one reason the pew response is less enthusiastic than it ought to be. I well remember the response the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel’s Messiah received at our Pentecostal Christmas service. Pentecostals are quite enthusiastic about the choir but the roof nearly blew off when that point in the service was reached!
R
rr1213
Guest
Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee?
R
rr1213
Guest
I’ll take a listen when I get home…(no speakers on the ol’ work computer
)
T
Teflon93
Guest
Yes!
- Status