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DSJJ
Guest
Can the song, Turn, Turn, Turn by the Byrds be played at a Sunday Mass?
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I don’t think “can” is the word you want. You really want to know if it “should” be used.
That said, if you learn that it is appropriate to use it, you might schedule it for Friday of the 25th week in Ordinary time in Cycle 2.
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fencersmother
Guest
It’s Ecclesiastes Chapter 3:1-83.
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CAROLOFTHEBELLS
Guest
The Bryds only recorded it. The lyrics are out of the bible and music was composed by Pete Seeger. It would be nice to sing it at mass this week, but since Sunday is the Presentation of the Lord it is not appropriate. I have wondered if singing it as a prelude prior to mass would be okay. Perhaps it could be just a soft guitar with no singing.
Of course, a recording should not be played at any time.
Of course, a recording should not be played at any time.
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vindicated
Guest
NO. While the words are based on scripture, the song was written as a secular piece of music. The style was not intended for liturgical use nor is it proper as church music.
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CountrySteve
Guest
please don’t
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pnewton
Guest
Ask your priest. You will get a better answer and give him a laugh.
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Phemie
Guest
Then again, based on experience, she might just get “Great idea, go for it!”
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tawny
Guest
Althought the words are biblical in origin; I do not think they were ever intended for or would be appropriate in a liturgical setting.
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pnewton
Guest
Some of the words are in the Bible. Some are not. The additions turn, turn it from a philosophical song to some hippie, long-haired young-whipper snapper pinko song.
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Filii_Dei
Guest
The criteria for liturgical music is not simply that the words be taken from the Bible or other traditional sources. Otherwise one could set the Beatitudes to techno and one could argue that it was acceptable. What is important that the words and must convey a sense of worship and reverence appropriate for a solemn setting like a Mass. A Mass is not a some cosy fellowship for sharing and community, where popular music can be played as and when we wish. It is the highest form of worship, lovingly cultivated by our ancestors for two thousand years. We should give it due reverence and respect the way in the same spirit that our ancestors held in their hearts. Playing a cover of a rock song does not achieve the same end. 
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CAROLOFTHEBELLS
Guest
Um, it was a folk song. Geez, way to overblow things.…some hippie, long-haired young-whipper snapper pinko song.
Sometimes I read posts on this website and I wonder. I just wonder.
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pnewton
Guest
My knee was hurting and I felt old. Or maybe it was a sixties flash-back.
(FYI - check the smilies. It helps. )
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Filii_Dei
Guest
It’s deliberate hyperbole. Many a person have an axe to grind with the state of music in churches these days.
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Cat
Guest
Members of CAF know that I’m about as progressive as it gets when it comes to Mass music.
E.g., I think that Filii Dei’s suggestion of setting the Beatitudes to techno would be great, and very appropriate for certain Masses! I hope that a composer is working on that right now!
But I don’t think that Turn Turn would be appropriate for any Mass, not because of any deficiencies in the song, but because there are better hymns and songs that should be used in the Mass.
Hymns and songs should be used in the Mass because they support the liturgy and enhance the various readings, not because they’re “good songs.” E.g., last night, the song “Christ Be Our Light” was used because it was Candlemas and the Feast of the Presentation. This is a fairly modern-style song that satisfied the “boomers” like me who enjoy modern music in the Mass. We also sang “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee,” so all those who enjoy more traditional music were satisfied, too! (I love that hymn, too!)
I think that Turn Turn would be highly-appropriate and very thought-provoking in a Catholic coffee house setting, or in a Catholic youth group meeting, or in some kind of Catholic concert venue (amateur or professional).
For that matter, the techno Beatitudes would probably be more appropriate in one of these other settings other than Mass.
Finally, one more reason why “Turn Turn” should probably not be used in the Mass is that it was NOT written for a congregation to sing! It was written for an ensemble (the Byrds), and sounds best when sung by an ensemble. It is a rather complex song, if I remember correctly, and really needs to be sung with the parts to sound good. IMO, it would be dreadful to have this song done in the Mass by singers unless they were very talented and experienced in singing this kind of ensemble music!
Of course, perhaps someone has composed a new setting for Turn Turn that can be easily done by a congregation. But I doubt it. Do you remember when Bart Simpson slipped In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida into the church liturgy, and the entire congregation sang it while the elderly organist played it? It was hilarious, but I hope it never happens in a church service or Mass! These songs just were not written to be sung by a congregation or by inexperienced choirs/ensembles.
I think this is one of the main problems with using “contemporary” Christian music (e.g., Matt Maher) in the Mass as congregational music–it wasn’t written to be sung by a congregation. It was written to be done by a soloist or a small ensemble. The style doesn’t lend itself to be sung by a group. I can understand why so many people find CCM uncomfortable or objectionable in a Mass. What we need is more contemporary music that is written specifically to be sung by a congregation of amateurs.
E.g., I think that Filii Dei’s suggestion of setting the Beatitudes to techno would be great, and very appropriate for certain Masses! I hope that a composer is working on that right now!
But I don’t think that Turn Turn would be appropriate for any Mass, not because of any deficiencies in the song, but because there are better hymns and songs that should be used in the Mass.
Hymns and songs should be used in the Mass because they support the liturgy and enhance the various readings, not because they’re “good songs.” E.g., last night, the song “Christ Be Our Light” was used because it was Candlemas and the Feast of the Presentation. This is a fairly modern-style song that satisfied the “boomers” like me who enjoy modern music in the Mass. We also sang “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee,” so all those who enjoy more traditional music were satisfied, too! (I love that hymn, too!)
I think that Turn Turn would be highly-appropriate and very thought-provoking in a Catholic coffee house setting, or in a Catholic youth group meeting, or in some kind of Catholic concert venue (amateur or professional).
For that matter, the techno Beatitudes would probably be more appropriate in one of these other settings other than Mass.
Finally, one more reason why “Turn Turn” should probably not be used in the Mass is that it was NOT written for a congregation to sing! It was written for an ensemble (the Byrds), and sounds best when sung by an ensemble. It is a rather complex song, if I remember correctly, and really needs to be sung with the parts to sound good. IMO, it would be dreadful to have this song done in the Mass by singers unless they were very talented and experienced in singing this kind of ensemble music!
Of course, perhaps someone has composed a new setting for Turn Turn that can be easily done by a congregation. But I doubt it. Do you remember when Bart Simpson slipped In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida into the church liturgy, and the entire congregation sang it while the elderly organist played it? It was hilarious, but I hope it never happens in a church service or Mass! These songs just were not written to be sung by a congregation or by inexperienced choirs/ensembles.
I think this is one of the main problems with using “contemporary” Christian music (e.g., Matt Maher) in the Mass as congregational music–it wasn’t written to be sung by a congregation. It was written to be done by a soloist or a small ensemble. The style doesn’t lend itself to be sung by a group. I can understand why so many people find CCM uncomfortable or objectionable in a Mass. What we need is more contemporary music that is written specifically to be sung by a congregation of amateurs.
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MrSnaith
Guest
Regarding music at Mass in general, are there specific guidelines set by the Church for this? If so, what are they, and where can I find them?
I ask because I often hear the “culture” argument when it comes to certain kinds of music I’ve heard at Mass. I understand that culture plays an important role here, as certain kinds of music convey high spiritual importance in one culture, but not another.
Yet, recently I attended a youth Mass in which praise and worship music was used throughout. I’m not opposed to this, specifically. My beef was how it was played. They used electric guitars with distortion, as well as a full drum and cymbal percussion set. I consider this liturgical abuse.
I’ve also seen at another Mass, at a different Parish altogether, a similar music setup, but with a massive speaker set and electronic keyboard (which wouldn’t have been an issue if it was playing percussive beats in the background the whole time). And they were set up to the right of the Altar, with no clear division between the Sanctuary and the rest of the church. I also consider this liturgical abuse.
Am I wrong about these instances?
I ask because I often hear the “culture” argument when it comes to certain kinds of music I’ve heard at Mass. I understand that culture plays an important role here, as certain kinds of music convey high spiritual importance in one culture, but not another.
Yet, recently I attended a youth Mass in which praise and worship music was used throughout. I’m not opposed to this, specifically. My beef was how it was played. They used electric guitars with distortion, as well as a full drum and cymbal percussion set. I consider this liturgical abuse.
I’ve also seen at another Mass, at a different Parish altogether, a similar music setup, but with a massive speaker set and electronic keyboard (which wouldn’t have been an issue if it was playing percussive beats in the background the whole time). And they were set up to the right of the Altar, with no clear division between the Sanctuary and the rest of the church. I also consider this liturgical abuse.
Am I wrong about these instances?
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felsguy
Guest
No, it is absolutely correct to say that you do consider these liturgical abuse.
However, based on past threads, it is most unlikely that you will come away with a definitive answer as to whether or not these actually are liturgical abuses. Normally responses here will run about two thirds agreeing with you and one third disagreeing. I’m surprised that there haven’t been a ton of responses already. Maybe the Super Bowl is keeping people away.
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Magdalena59
Guest
I hope not. I think I would cringe.
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Phemie
Guest
Regarding music, the GIRM says
The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy says
I don’t think the set up you describe could ever be construed to be edifying.
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Sarabande
Guest
That scene from The Simpsons was absolutely hilarious, yet I agree with you that I would never want that to occur during an actual mass.
I think that is a good observation with certain kinds of music written today or in recent times that is/was expected to be sung by the congregation. The same with older works. I taught a voice lesson today and that point, which I have believed for quite a while, was driven home to me when I worked with my student. He is taking lessons so that he can sing hymns better at mass in the congregation.
He wanted to sing “You Are Mine” by David Haas. It was written in 1991, so it’s not “old”, per say, compared to other hymns. In terms of range, there wasn’t a problem. In terms of rhythm, there were lots of problems and the same kinds of problems I have always heard with people singing this as a congregation, as well as hearing cantors who couldn’t read music or were just poor musicians in general. Each verse had slight differences in rhythm. It’s a piece of music which isn’t easily picked up by a “lay” person. It’s better-suited to solo-singing or by an ensemble.
In regards to the OP, “Turn, Turn, Turn” was not written to be sung for liturgy, much like how Beethoven’s “Missa Solemnis” was composed as a concert work and NOT for mass.
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