Music during Mass

[Edmundus1581]

I find the Protestant influence idea funny. I grew up in a Baptist Church with organ music every Sunday. The first guitar I ever heard in a Church was when we visited the local Catholic Church for some play.

My experiences as an Anglican convert were similar.

I hope that we can emphatically reject the proposal that bad Catholic music comes from Protestantism.

While we, rightfully, are concerned about crass modern music (I deliberately exclude good guitar music) I’d like to point out that Catholic church music has been worse than Protestant music historically, also. The Oxford Companion to Music (Scholes) has a couple of pages on the topic, which I hope to summarise a bit later. Basically, he ( Scholes) argues that even prior to V-II Catholic churches didn’t use their own best composers and musical guidelines.

Still, I’d take an acapella Soul of My Saviour or Tantum Ergo in a humble parish church any day! Not that I’ve heard it for about 20 years…

Here’s the Protestant influence…

Ein Feste Burg is Unser Gott

or Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Yes.

:yup:

 

[Edmundus1581]

I wouldn’t give up on producing organists.

…

I hope some of these ideas are helpful to you and others.

Thankyou for the encouragement and the suggestions!

I think you have some great ideas there. Particularly, I take your suggestion that the parish can be doing something to encourage and assist pianists to learn the organ. We can also encourage pianists to play something, even a couple of hymns, at Mass.

We are currently using CD’s at the Masses without choir, and it is no long term solution. As a member of the liturgy committee I want the parish to recognise that this is not a long term solution, and with these suggestions I will have something to offer instead. (I’m also thinking of ways to encourage cantors to lead acapella singing).

These are even suggestions which the parish could put to the diocese, to provide for organists in the future.

Thanks!

 

[Elizium23]

We are currently using CD’s at the Masses without choir, and it is no long term solution. As a member of the liturgy committee I want the parish to recognise that this is not a long term solution, and with these suggestions I will have something to offer instead. (I’m also thinking of ways to encourage cantors to lead acapella singing).

It is not even a short term solution. It is completely illicit to use recorded music in the liturgy. Your Masses should be a cappella or no music at all to conform with the law.

 

[hsmomforlife]

Have you tried to learn to play the organ?

I have. I’m an excellent pianist and I often play for Mass. I decided two years ago to learn how to play the organ (pipe) with the goal of playing for Mass and being able to play for more traditional-style Masses, including the Latin Mass.

I can now play three hymns. And one of those hymns is an advent hymn. I can play a few Bach preludes and postludes. I’m working on a Vierne piece.

I am working on one of the AGO examinations (hymns), but it is really slow going because (1) it’s very difficult to find the time to practice (2) it’s even more difficult to find an organ to practice on that is available when I am able to practice and (3) the organ is just darned hard to play because it requires both hands, both feet, but only one brain to manage all this!

Here’s one more problem, which isn’t a problem for me, but for others it might be: my lessons cost $250,00 a month. I take from the best liturgical organist in our city.

So IMO, that’s one of the reasons why you see more guitar than organ in the Mass. My cousin taught himself to play the guitar in only a few MONTHS, and he plays in clubs and at competitions. But an organ takes years to be able to learn well enough to play for others.

Another reason why you see more guitars than organs is the cost of a guitar vs. an organ, not just the initial purchase price, but the maintenance and repairs.

Perhaps part of the issue is that we don’t teach the organ to young children…I know some young children who could play the organ for Mass by the age of 8 or so. They played at Masses before that, but I doubt their feet reached the pedals!LOL!

Finding an organ to practice on might not be all that difficult…people who have small organs who don’t use them but don’t want to throw them out will usually give them to someone who will ‘love’ them… I tease a friend of mine that her house has become a home for wayward organs because they are the first one people think of when they hear of someone who has an organ that they want to get rid of. If you are in the Chicago area…PM me, maybe there is someone local who is looking to get rid of an organ…

 

[Minnesota1]

Thanks , like the idea of recorded music. Plus I was raised that drums and guitars do not belong in Mass.

Thankyou for the encouragement and the suggestions!

I think you have some great ideas there. Particularly, I take your suggestion that the parish can be doing something to encourage and assist pianists to learn the organ. We can also encourage pianists to play something, even a couple of hymns, at Mass.

We are currently using CD’s at the Masses without choir, and it is no long term solution. As a member of the liturgy committee I want the parish to recognise that this is not a long term solution, and with these suggestions I will have something to offer instead. (I’m also thinking of ways to encourage cantors to lead acapella singing).

These are even suggestions which the parish could put to the diocese, to provide for organists in the future.

Thanks!

 

[liturgyluver]

I completely agree with what others have said that it wrong to describe bad Catholic music as protestant - the music in most of the mainstream protestant churches usually imparts a more reverant feel than in ours, and participation is much better. If more churches used more of the great hymns written by Anglicans and Lutherans it would be no bad thing.

The “pride of place” argument is a sidetrack as church documents make clear that its reference to gregorian chant only refers to “sung liturgical services celebrated in Latin.” (See also Musicum Sacram, para 50)

 

[Filii_Dei]

If you can’t get musicians, use chant. It’s so simple! You don’t even need to fiddle with CDs and players and sound systems, and everyone learns it quickly. In fact, it is so unifying that we use it for all our pontifical liturgies.

 

[Cat]

I find the Protestant influence idea funny. I grew up in a Baptist Church with organ music every Sunday. The first guitar I ever heard in a Church was when we visited the local Catholic Church for some play.

We had organ and piano together in my Baptist church.

My organ teacher despises this, BTW. So does the organist at my parish (who is excellent, but doesn’t teach).

Must be an organ prejudice. I LIKE piano and organ together. It’s a nice, full sound, and the piano adds a brightness to the organ accompaniment.

 

[Sarabande]

I have noticed an influx of musical instruments like guitars and drums during songs at Mass. This seems to be a bit too much Protestant influence. Since when did we get away from organs? Agree or disagree on Protestant influence.

As others have mentioned, some of the mainstream Protestant churches use organ… sometimes much more consistently in all of their churches than in Catholic parishes. I mean, I’ve worked in Episcopal and Lutheran churches on a typical Sunday where the music and instrumentation was “more Catholic” than what you see at a Catholic mass. What I think people are thinking of when they mention the use of guitars, percussion (mainly drumset) and such “Protestant”, they are thinking of some of the non-denominational churches, which tend to use bands rather than the more traditional instruments like the organ or even the piano that you see in more mainstream denominations. So, perhaps people should be more specific as to what Protestant group they are referring to when they say something is “too Protestant”.

What I find funny is when my Protestant friends have complained about how their churches have added “guitar” or “band” services and that it’s becoming too much of “mediocre Catholic music” and instruments that they have either heard about or have experienced. I’ve even had a Jewish friend lament how the Reform Jews also employ guitars at their services, taking it from the Catholic influences of just bad music in general.

Edit: Even though there might be some influence from non-denominational Protestant churches in terms of the use of instrumentation and music, I think it is really less of a Protestant influence and more of a secular influence encroaching into the sacred realms of our lives.

 

[Sarabande]

My experiences as an Anglican convert were similar.

Anglicans have some of the best music, as well as better musicianship. I’d take their influence with music any time. So many times, too, I’ve walked into different Anglican/Episcopal churches and realized that they were using music originally composed for Catholic liturgy.

I hope that we can emphatically reject the proposal that bad Catholic music comes from Protestantism.

While we, rightfully, are concerned about crass modern music (I deliberately exclude good guitar music) I’d like to point out that Catholic church music has been worse than Protestant music historically, also. The Oxford Companion to Music (Scholes) has a couple of pages on the topic, which I hope to summarise a bit later. Basically, he ( Scholes) argues that even prior to V-II Catholic churches didn’t use their own best composers and musical guidelines.

As someone who works within the music world, I can say that Catholic music today and most Catholic musicians have some of the worst reputations amongst Church musicians. I can’t tell you how many times the eyes roll when I mention that I work at such-and-such parish before they hear me sing or how surprised they are when they learn that I work at a Catholic parish after I have sung. All too often, my older, non-Catholic colleagues tell me how sad it was that the Church seemed to completely disregard our musical heritage after V2. On top of that, they and my other Catholic organist friends tell me what they experienced during the years following, how many of them and their colleagues were basically pushed out of Catholic parishes in favor of guitars. Where did they go? They went to the Protestant churches which still used organs and paid their organists.

Here’s the Protestant influence…

Ein Feste Burg is Unser Gott

or Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence.

 

[SMHW]

Perhaps part of the issue is that we don’t teach the organ to young children…

This is pretty much the point that has been made in much of the rest of this thread.

But it raises the question of who the “we” is that is not teaching children. Should parishes be paying for this? Should priests be giving homilies about the duties of parents to raise future organists?

It would seem that most parents are uninterested in giving their children organ lessons. I would guess that more parents want their children to take piano, flute, or violin lessons than want to give their children organ lessons.

 

[agapewolf]

If you can’t get musicians, use chant. It’s so simple! You don’t even need to fiddle with CDs and players and sound systems, and everyone learns it quickly. In fact, it is so unifying that we use it for all our pontifical liturgies.

Not easy to learn. My parish sings ANYTHING I give them. Old hymns, St. Louis Jesuits, Haas, contemporary praise and worship. They sing everything.

Except chant. I even give them the music with words with easy access-- practice before mass for several weeks in a row. Nope.

 

[Sarabande]

Not easy to learn. My parish sings ANYTHING I give them. Old hymns, St. Louis Jesuits, Haas, contemporary praise and worship. They sing everything.

Except chant. I even give them the music with words with easy access-- practice before mass for several weeks in a row. Nope.

I think it depends on the parish. Some parishes I’ve been in have a difficult time picking it up. Other parishes pick it up after just a few masses, and then others pick it up after about a year or so. Same with other music. What’s easy for one parish, isn’t for another. I still haven’t figured out why that is, as I haven’t seen a particular pattern. With the parishes that do have a particularly difficult time, there is only so much one can do with the little time available to develop and teach it.

 

[Usige]

My parish has a very strong music program.

We must have 150 - 200 singers between our cantors, adult choir, youth choir, and various age groups of children’s choirs. (And we DON’T even have a parish school.)

We have many talented instrumentalists who know piano, cello, flute, percussion, and assorted other instruments.

Lucky. We have maybe 22 vocalist split over 4 choirs (can you call 2 or 3 people a choir?) in a parish of about 6000. Then again we have something like 35 instrumentalist, with only 2 or 3 that play piano (yes we generally have twice as many instrumentalists as vocalist). At one mass, one of the 3 guitarist has his amplifier unplugged because of his lack of proficiency.

One thing I think is different from the protestant churches I grew up in is that they had a single choir that sang at all the services (I generally sang 2 or 3 times each Sunday). It’s similar with the TLM parish in that their is only on choir because there is only one Missa Cantata each Sunday. I’ve always wondered why we don’t have either a single choir that sings at all masses or only have a choir at one mass and a capella cantors for the rest.

 

[Sarabande]

This is pretty much the point that has been made in much of the rest of this thread.

But it raises the question of who the “we” is that is not teaching children. Should parishes be paying for this? Should priests be giving homilies about the duties of parents to raise future organists?

It would seem that most parents are uninterested in giving their children organ lessons. I would guess that more parents want their children to take piano, flute, or violin lessons than want to give their children organ lessons.

These are good questions. How do “we” encourage children to learn the organ for our churches? I think it should start with the parents, like with anything. But many of the parents today, grew up with very little influence with the organ. If they did have an organ at mass, more than likely did they not have a good organist… a mediocre one at best. Then there are the popular stereotypes of who plays the organ - the creepy, skinny man going all out with the Bach Toccata and Fugue, the little old lady with shaking hands who can barely see over the organ consul, the cheesy registrations and playing by the guys who play at hockey and baseball games, and the very talented, yet flamboyant lady with big hair and loud, sequin clothing. Understandably, even though they are stereotypes, parents usually don’t want to think of their sweet, little cherub faces looking or acting like stereotypes. If these parents never really attended organ concerts or attended a church with a very good organist or a real, well-taken-care-of organ, they won’t realize that organists are usually normal people, not the extremes from the stereotypes. They won’t see the value of providing organ lessons for their children.

Where I live, I do get to meet and work with some very good, young organists in their 20s and 30s. Those who have studied at places like Westminster Choir College, Curtis, Peabody, Julliard, etc. Then you have those who have studied privately, with no degree, yet can play the socks off any organ and are sometimes even better musicians than the ones who have the conservatory training. Most of these men and women are normal, lovely people and I do believe when you see people like that at the organ, it can break those stereotypes and might encourage learning it, because they are closer in age to the youth. That said, most areas don’t see organists like that. They mostly stay in the cities because that is where you can make a living as an organist and music director. Suburban parishes usually don’t want to pay or don’t have the means to pay a living wage to people of that kind of training and talent. Plus the musical tastes and needs seem to be different. But, you really don’t need to be conservatory trained to play the organ at mass.

My own personal opinion is that future, little organists should take piano first then move onto the organ. I find with the organists who are well trained on the piano and are equally well-trained on the organ, play the organ much more beautifully. There is a warmth and beauty in their playing that I usually don’t hear from those who started out mainly on organ. But that is just an aesthetic preference.

I do think that if people are complaining about a lack of organists, they really should put their money where their mouths are. Either dedicate 5-10 years (or more) of your life to master the organ yourself, or be a generous donor to help finance the music education of young organists. Pastors and music directors should help make it easy for organists to practice at their parishes. Younger organ students should have opportunities to play parts of or the entire mass. I have friends who started playing the organ for mass as young as 8 years old. They’d get paid like $10 for the mass. Older friends who are now in the 50s and 60s were taught to play by their music teacher at the Catholic school. There were a good number of kids in their own parishes who were learning the organ and proficiently that they would have to schedule times after school or during lunch to practice. I’m guessing that back then, it was expected that the organ was the only instrument to be played so they had to encourage the learning of it. To Catholics, it was the church instrument.

 

[Sarabande]

One thing I think is different from the protestant churches I grew up in is that they had a single choir that sang at all the services (I generally sang 2 or 3 times each Sunday). It’s similar with the TLM parish in that their is only on choir because there is only one Missa Cantata each Sunday. I’ve always wondered why we don’t have either a single choir that sings at all masses or only have a choir at one mass and a capella cantors for the rest.

What I see from the music classifieds looking for ringers or section leaders at Protestant churches is that there is usually just one service with the choir. They sometimes practice once during the week, then on Sunday morning and then the service. When I see classifieds for music directors, they might direct two or more different choirs - traditional choir, children’s choir, praise group, handbell choir, etc. For Catholic parishes that actually do pay their section leaders or their cantors in my area, it’s usually their later mass on a Sunday (like their 10:00 or 11:00 masses) that uses the choir and then they have a cantor and organist or pianist at the other masses.

The problem with having cantors sing a capella is that most Catholic cantors have very little to no vocal training. Many would have a difficult time staying in the same key or on pitch in general. What probably would work better is to just not have a cantor at those other masses and let instrumentalist lead it or even have the congregation lead. This is coming from someone who makes part of my living working as a cantor.

 

[Phemie]

Why are children not becoming organists? Lack of familiarity with the instrument is probably the most likely reason.

Back in the day, kids heard the organ in church and it was not uncommon for even not-so-well-to-do homes to have a pump organ (my grandparents had one and they certainly weren’t well off, gramma did laundry for the ‘summer people’ to make ends meet.) Kids’ first attempt to play an instrument was often on the organ.

You’d be hard pressed to find an organ in most homes today, and when an electronic keyboard or acoustic guitar can be purchased for less than a gaming system it’s not surprising that that’s the instrument the kids pick up and choose to play. Even in schools with good music programs you’re unlikely to find an organ.

 

[aemcpa]

It is not even a short term solution. It is completely illicit to use recorded music in the liturgy. Your Masses should be a cappella or no music at all to conform with the law.

:yup: :clapping:

 

[Cat]

Why are children not becoming organists? Lack of familiarity with the instrument is probably the most likely reason.

Back in the day, kids heard the organ in church and it was not uncommon for even not-so-well-to-do homes to have a pump organ (my grandparents had one and they certainly weren’t well off, gramma did laundry for the ‘summer people’ to make ends meet.) Kids’ first attempt to play an instrument was often on the organ.

You’d be hard pressed to find an organ in most homes today, and when an electronic keyboard or acoustic guitar can be purchased for less than a gaming system it’s not surprising that that’s the instrument the kids pick up and choose to play. Even in schools with good music programs you’re unlikely to find an organ.

I don’t think that a “pump organ” or any of the little “chord organs” or “fun organs” or even a Clavinova with an organ setting is anywhere near adequate for anyone, child or other, to practice or even get a feel for a “real” organ. To me, it’s like giving someone an Oscar Mayer weiner whistle and saying, “Here, this is kind of like a flute.” Yes, it is, but…