Music Ministry at Modernized Mass

[nickybr38]

Hey guys I need some advice…

I moved this fall and so I am attending a new parish. Because of the geography of the area I live in finding a new parish is not an option… I only bold that because it seems to be in the list of the top ten things to suggest when one is asking for advice. Please imagine the most remote area you can and then imagine me in the middle of it. We have one parish within driving distance and I will be attending it no matter what abuses I find.

This new parish I’m attending is as modernized as you can get. The crucifix hanging on the wall is bedecked with Christmas lights (no joke). The music ministers are singing Protestant music (modern Protestant hymns … I could name names but I don’t care to pull titles out of my long ill used memory just to prove the point), even for the Mass parts of the music. I could go on and on and on forever about the abuses but that’s not what I’m concerned with.

I was in the music ministry in my old parish. I am a new Catholic though so I trusted those I was working with to lead me in the correct path… here, however, I clearly can’t place that same trust.

My question is really two fold.

A) Should I volunteer to help with music ministry?
B) Where do I find help as to what is the proper music to sing at Mass? I’d like to educate myself on this issue very much because I just don’t know who to trust and I don’t want to bother Father. I’m sure he has more then enough to worry about already.

Thank you in advance.

 

[I_Thirst]

The music ministers are singing Protestant music (modern Protestant hymns … I could name names but I don’t care to pull titles out of my long ill used memory just to prove the point), even for the Mass parts of the music.

This is very common.

A) Should I volunteer to help with music ministry?

Yes, but don’t expect to change anything. Pray for your soul to bear the music with humility and treat it with charity.

B) Where do I find help as to what is the proper music to sing at Mass? I’d like to educate myself on this issue very much because I just don’t know who to trust and I don’t want to bother Father. I’m sure he has more then enough to worry about already.

The music that is being used at Mass is probably acceptable. Read the 2011 edition of the GIRM.

#41 of the GIRM is instructive …
The main place should be given, all things being equal, to Gregorian chant, as being proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other kinds of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.

All parishes read the part that I’ve put in bold as justification for what they use.

In my former parish, I ran a schola cantorum for a year. It was treated with hostility and aggressive resistance. We never chanted at Mass in that parish. Even with the new GIRM, Gregorian chant won’t be used there. The powers-that-be have determined that that parish isn’t a chanting one.

I’ve moved on to an Eastern Catholic Church, which doesn’t have modern music or Protestant hymns at all. They chant (not Gregorian chant, but an Eastern-based chant) almost everything (except the homily and one prayer).

 

[liturgyluver]

Hey guys I need some advice…

I moved this fall and so I am attending a new parish. Because of the geography of the area I live in finding a new parish is not an option… I only bold that because it seems to be in the list of the top ten things to suggest when one is asking for advice. Please imagine the most remote area you can and then imagine me in the middle of it. We have one parish within driving distance and I will be attending it no matter what abuses I find.

This new parish I’m attending is as modernized as you can get. The crucifix hanging on the wall is bedecked with Christmas lights (no joke). The music ministers are singing Protestant music (modern Protestant hymns … I could name names but I don’t care to pull titles out of my long ill used memory just to prove the point), even for the Mass parts of the music. I could go on and on and on forever about the abuses but that’s not what I’m concerned with.

I was in the music ministry in my old parish. I am a new Catholic though so I trusted those I was working with to lead me in the correct path… here, however, I clearly can’t place that same trust.

My question is really two fold.

A) Should I volunteer to help with music ministry?
B) Where do I find help as to what is the proper music to sing at Mass? I’d like to educate myself on this issue very much because I just don’t know who to trust and I don’t want to bother Father. I’m sure he has more then enough to worry about already.

Thank you in advance.

First of all what music is sung for mass settings (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) ? There is a list of approved musical settings for the new translation that your Diocean office will be able to provide.

When you say they use protestant hymns though what exactly do you mean? There are many traditional hymns - and some more modern ones - by protestant writers (Wesley, Watts, Winkworth, Lyte) that are in the Catholic hymnals and can be used. I find it surprising that your Church don’t use one of the Catholic hymnals which have a vast reportoire of material, including much Catholic additions to these (much of which I don’t care for)

Finally, Gregorian chant should be offerred at one mass at least. I am sue the congregation will be very grateful if you can restore some balance to what sounds like a terrble music ministry.

 

[Scoobyshme]

I think the problem stems from what they believe the Mass is vs. what it really is. It is a Holy Sacrifice. It is Calvary, re-presented, and, therefore, to be taken seriously. Would they consider having a hootnanny as Jesus was dying on the Cross? Is that what they consider holy, sacrificial, or solemn?

Pray for them. Especially pray the Rosary, which is the prayer of the Gospel, and the most highly indulgenced private prayer in the Church, for your new parish.

 

[nickybr38]

First of all what music is sung for mass settings (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) ? There is a list of approved musical settings for the new translation that your Diocean office will be able to provide.

When you say they use protestant hymns though what exactly do you mean? There are many traditional hymns - and some more modern ones - by protestant writers (Wesley, Watts, Winkworth, Lyte) that are in the Catholic hymnals and can be used. I find it surprising that your Church don’t use one of the Catholic hymnals which have a vast reportoire of material, including much Catholic additions to these (much of which I don’t care for)

Finally, Gregorian chant should be offerred at one mass at least. I am sue the congregation will be very grateful if you can restore some balance to what sounds like a terrble music ministry.

When I say Protestant Hymns I mean the new modern types… I’m sorry but I’m drawing a blank on the names - but needless to say they aren’t Mass appropriate. Even as a newbie to all this I know that.

This past Sunday they used their hymnals which was a welcome relief but unfortunately they didn’t have a strong music leader so they were a bit lost ):. I suspect they fall back on the Protestant music when they haven’t had time to prepare, in my experience Protestant music is simply easier to play in a pinch (but I’ve been playing that stuff all my life so…) and more modernized parishes seem to think that type of music is more likely to ‘draw the young crowd’ in.

I am aware that some Protestant music IS okay. In fact I really used to enjoy it in my old parish when they’d sing a song I could recognize!!! But some songs aren’t acceptable (at least, I really don’t think they are). It’s weird to me to be hearing a peppy, upbeat, camp fire type song after the priest asks us to confess our sins… I mean, something about that is just off.

Frankly I suspect much of their problems with the music is just lack of clear direction but I am definitely not the one to provide that! I’ve barely figured this Mass order out yet. And if they have no clear direction they clearly can’t teach me so if there are ways to learn these things on my own that’d be great. I am what you would call extremely self motivated. Learning on my own is no deterrent to learning in my opinion.

*First of all what music is sung for mass settings (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) ? There is a list of approved musical settings for the new translation that your Diocean office will be able to provide. *

Depends… sometimes the music from the hymnals and sometimes just random campfire type songs that I honestly can’t even identify (actually… they might even be Catholic… they sure sound like music I used to hear at Bible camp though so I’m assuming the mass parts are Protestant children’s songs…).

With the New Mass there will be new Mass parts will there not? How does one go about getting a copy of these? Does anyone know?

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut guys.

*Yes, but don’t expect to change anything. Pray for your soul to bear the music with humility and treat it with charity. *

Clearly I can’t change anything. The people who are there have been there probably all their lives. I’ve been Catholic one year. What could I possibly hope to change? But I won’t participate in the music ministry if I am uncomfortable with the music being sung and I’m just not sure how to convey that without insulting anyone… and if there is no way to convey that without insult then perhaps it is best for me to just bow out and find a new means of participating in the parish. I suppose the only thing left is to spend time in prayer. I just moved so there’s no rush.

I’d make an excellent greeter or lector though… hmmm…

 

[MisterCorduroy]

You receive extra graces when you suffer through a Mass that doesn’t meet your personal standards. Maybe God is trying to teach you that it is not about the music, the homiletic skills of the priest, or the behaviour of the parishioners–it’s about Jesus!

Since you are not comfortable with the current music, I would not get involved in that ministry until you have been in the parish for a few months. Get to know the personality of the parish.

If you look for possible “liturgical abuses” you will usually find them. I’ve learned that the worst liturgical abuse, though, is usually committed in my own heart–a bad attitude, or a pharisaical spirit. Who am I to deserve the gift of Christ’s Body and Blood?

Be thankful that you have a parish in your area, even if it has flaws. Remember that you probably have flaws too.

When my child gives me a picture that he drew, I don’t criticize the lack of realism or the composition, or the choice of colours. It warms my heart that he made it for me out of love. I think our Heavenly Father is the same way when we offer our praise to Him.

 

[liturgyluver]

When I say Protestant Hymns I mean the new modern types… I’m sorry but I’m drawing a blank on the names - but needless to say they aren’t Mass appropriate. Even as a newbie to all this I know that.

This past Sunday they used their hymnals which was a welcome relief but unfortunately they didn’t have a strong music leader so they were a bit lost ):. I suspect they fall back on the Protestant music when they haven’t had time to prepare, in my experience Protestant music is simply easier to play in a pinch (but I’ve been playing that stuff all my life so…) and more modernized parishes seem to think that type of music is more likely to ‘draw the young crowd’ in.

I am aware that some Protestant music IS okay. In fact I really used to enjoy it in my old parish when they’d sing a song I could recognize!!! But some songs aren’t acceptable (at least, I really don’t think they are). It’s weird to me to be hearing a peppy, upbeat, camp fire type song after the priest asks us to confess our sins… I mean, something about that is just off.

Frankly I suspect much of their problems with the music is just lack of clear direction but I am definitely not the one to provide that! I’ve barely figured this Mass order out yet. And if they have no clear direction they clearly can’t teach me so if there are ways to learn these things on my own that’d be great. I am what you would call extremely self motivated. Learning on my own is no deterrent to learning in my opinion.

*First of all what music is sung for mass settings (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) ? There is a list of approved musical settings for the new translation that your Diocean office will be able to provide. *

Depends… sometimes the music from the hymnals and sometimes just random campfire type songs that I honestly can’t even identify (actually… they might even be Catholic… they sure sound like music I used to hear at Bible camp though so I’m assuming the mass parts are Protestant children’s songs…).

With the New Mass there will be new Mass parts will there not? How does one go about getting a copy of these? Does anyone know?

I think - having read your reply - it’s really important to get familair with the ordinary of the mass first. These are formally part of the liturgy and must take priority. I am surprised that you haven’t identified yet what settings are used if they come from the hymnals. Be warned that some of the approved Catholic settings are very happy-clappy, so be choosy about which ones you recommend.

This site might be helpful: giamusic.com/sacred_music/revised_mass_settings.cfm

Next look at the hymnal, I suspect it will have a suggested list of hymns for various points in the liturgical year. If the congregation has been used to modern music, you might try introducing more traditional hymns slowly and building up a reportoire. Does this church have a pipe organ btw? What hymnal is it and what songs did they sing from it?

Of course you will need the support of your Parish priest if any of this is going to take hold, and he will need to be supportive and understand the benefits to the congregation.

 

[nickybr38]

You receive extra graces when you suffer through a Mass that doesn’t meet your personal standards. Maybe God is trying to teach you that it is not about the music, the homiletic skills of the priest, or the behaviour of the parishioners–it’s about Jesus!

Since you are not comfortable with the current music, I would not get involved in that ministry until you have been in the parish for a few months. Get to know the personality of the parish.

If you look for possible “liturgical abuses” you will usually find them. I’ve learned that the worst liturgical abuse, though, is usually committed in my own heart–a bad attitude, or a pharisaical spirit. Who am I to deserve the gift of Christ’s Body and Blood?

Be thankful that you have a parish in your area, even if it has flaws. Remember that you probably have flaws too.

When my child gives me a picture that he drew, I don’t criticize the lack of realism or the composition, or the choice of colours. It warms my heart that he made it for me out of love. I think our Heavenly Father is the same way when we offer our praise to Him.

All very good advice.

The abuses I see I can overlook - and no I didn’t seek them, they’re so glaring they’re difficult to miss but they aren’t so terrible that I feel compelled to drive an hour to another parish. The priest is actually a wonderful homilist!!! He is an excellent leader. I adore him already.

I can overlook the Christmas lights, I can overlook the chain hand holding, I can overlook all the little things everyone around me is doing… I really can! I just sit in the front and focus on Father and the rest bleeds away. I notice it, but in an abstract way…

The music - however - just makes me want to curl up and cry. Hahahaha. It’s not something I can turn my back to and ignore… I hear it throughout the Mass, I cannot tune it out.

Honestly I’d prefer NOT to do ministries EVER because it distracts from the Mass, for me, when I’m involved in reading or doing music or whatever. I find I simply cannot keep my focus on Christ when I’m worried about what I have to read, when I have to go up, when I have to do this when I have to do that… I don’t know how ANYONE participates in ministries without losing. I have great respect for people who help out with ministries at Mass.

On the same hand… is it really right to be content to sit back and let everyone else do the work when there’s such an obvious need? A need that I could possibly assist with? I CAN play piano, I CAN sing… the people who are currently doing these ministries can’t… not so much… so is it morally correct to just say: Well, I don’t like your song choices so I’m going to sit in the pew and let you do all the work?

That’s what I’m struggling with I guess…

I really feel in my heart that it would be wrong of me NOT to help (especially since they’ve asked me to) just because I have some personal issues with campfire music .

But really I will be in prayer over this. It’s not my Church, it’s not their Church… it’s our Father’s Church and *we can only do what He wills.

*we being all Christians of course.

 

[TheMc]

You receive extra graces when you suffer through a Mass that doesn’t meet your personal standards. Maybe God is trying to teach you that it is not about the music, the homiletic skills of the priest, or the behaviour of the parishioners–it’s about Jesus!

Since you are not comfortable with the current music, I would not get involved in that ministry until you have been in the parish for a few months. Get to know the personality of the parish.

If you look for possible “liturgical abuses” you will usually find them. I’ve learned that the worst liturgical abuse, though, is usually committed in my own heart–a bad attitude, or a pharisaical spirit. Who am I to deserve the gift of Christ’s Body and Blood?

Be thankful that you have a parish in your area, even if it has flaws. Remember that you probably have flaws too.

When my child gives me a picture that he drew, I don’t criticize the lack of realism or the composition, or the choice of colours. It warms my heart that he made it for me out of love. I think our Heavenly Father is the same way when we offer our praise to Him.

Ugh. I don’t even know where to start.

 

[I_Thirst]

This site might be helpful: giamusic.com/sacred_music/revised_mass_settings.cfm

Some of what GIA provides can be useful, but they include much of the happy-clappy music in their hymnals (and it seems to be what choirs pick). It could be worse if the parish uses OCP.

 

[nickybr38]

I think - having read your reply - it’s really important to get familair with the ordinary of the mass first. These are formally part of the liturgy and must take priority. I am surprised that you haven’t identified yet what settings are used if they come from the hymnals. Be warned that some of the approved Catholic settings are very happy-clappy, so be choosy about which ones you recommend.

This site might be helpful: giamusic.com/sacred_music/revised_mass_settings.cfm

Next look at the hymnal, I suspect it will have a suggested list of hymns for various points in the liturgical year. If the congregation has been used to modern music, you might try introducing more traditional hymns slowly and building up a reportoire. Does this church have a pipe organ btw? What hymnal is it and what songs did they sing from it?

Of course you will need the support of your Parish priest if any of this is going to take hold, and he will need to be supportive and understand the benefits to the congregation.

Thanks for the link!

The hymnal is like a magazine… Um. I forget the exact name but it’s a little yellow book with a picture of people singing on the front. The song numbers START in the 300s so I’m assuming there are other books that are supposed to go along with it. I initially thought it WAS a small magazine when I first saw it but I later realized it was their hymnal.

I would very much like to learn what the ordinary for Mass is. I’ve been attending different parishes all year when I can and so far they all have radically different forms, settings, music and even gestures (standing, sitting, kneeling times were different in each parish). I have to tell you I’m really confused. I don’t know what the norm is. I’d like to learn but RCIA didn’t cover things as basic as: What is the ordinary form of the Mass.

My previous parish had a strong music team and they were slowly teaching me about the norms for the Mass as it comes to music ministry but I’m fairly certain my new parish will not be able to continue teaching me so I am interested in independent sources where I can learn these things (which is what I should have asked in my original post). This is something I am very interested in learning and embracing.

Also, I would like to apologize if anything I’ve said in the last few posts hasn’t made much sense. I just finished a grueling two day move. I’m feeling pretty incoherent these past few days. Haha.

 

[I_Thirst]

The music - however - just makes me want to curl up and cry. Hahahaha. It’s not something I can turn my back to and ignore… I hear it throughout the Mass, I cannot tune it out.

Welcome to the Roman Catholic Church! Cross meet shoulder.

On the same hand… is it really right to be content to sit back and let everyone else do the work when there’s such an obvious need? A need that I could possibly assist with? I CAN play piano, I CAN sing… the people who are currently doing these ministries can’t… not so much… so is it morally correct to just say: Well, I don’t like your song choices so I’m going to sit in the pew and let you do all the work?

Which is the greater occasion of sin for you, playing with the choir or listening to the choir?

 

[nickybr38]

Some of what GIA provides can be useful, but they include much of the happy-clappy music in their hymnals (and it seems to be what choirs pick). It could be worse if the parish uses OCP.

What is OCP?

 

[TheMc]

I would very much like to learn what the ordinary for Mass is.

I can help you there. The Ordinary (broader definition) is the parts of the Mass that are unchanging. The Eucharistic Prayer, The our father, the gloria, etc… Most of the Mass is part of the ordinary.

“The ordinary” when used in a musical sense, usually refers to:

• Penitential Act (Formerly the Penitential Rite)
• Glory to God (Gloria)
• Holy (Sanctus)
• Mystery of Faith (Formerly Memorial acclamations) (mysterium fidei)
• Great Amen
• Lamb of God (Agnus Dei)

Occasionally it includes:

• Prayer of the Faithful (Intercessions)
• Preface dialog
• Preface
• Eucharistic Prayer (However, this is illicit)

When someone says they are using a different ordinary, it usually means they are using a different musical setting of those texts.

 

[nickybr38]

Welcome to the Roman Catholic Church! Cross meet shoulder.

What is the greater occasion of sin for you, playing with the choir or listening to the choir?

I’m not certain that either leads to sin. Silently weeping in my heart because the music is terrible isn’t a sin… is it?

Asking that we only tackle music that I’m comfortable with isn’t a sin either… is it? (and of course I only mean this in reference to the hymns)

This is why this is difficult for me to figure out because there is no clear ‘right’ or ‘wrong’… although in all honesty, as I stated before, I feel it’s wrong of me to sit in the pew when I know I CAN help.

 

[nickybr38]

I can help you there. The Ordinary (broader definition) is the parts of the Mass that are unchanging. The Eucharistic Prayer, The our father, the gloria, etc… Most of the Mass is part of the ordinary.

“The ordinary” when used in a musical sense, usually refers to the Glory to God (Gloria), Holy (Sanctus), Mystery of Faith (Formerly Memorial acclamations) (mysterium fidei), Great Amen, and the Lamb of God (Agnus Dei).

When someone says they are using a different ordinary, it usually means they are using a different musical setting of those texts.

Ah! I see. I noticed these things generally didn’t change (although sometimes parts would be left out here or there) but I didn’t know they were called the ‘Ordinary’.

I noticed at least three musical settings in our old hymnals. But in parishes all around I’ve heard many, many different versions of the Gloria, Agnus Dei, Holy, Great Amen and Lamb of God. How many acceptable musical versions are there of these particular pieces? or is it basically unlimited so long as the words remain the same?

In this parish I noticed they sang completely different words for the Lamb of God and the Amen which I found very confusing because usually no matter the musical setting I can follow because the words have been consistent but in the new parish the words were changed.

 

[I_Thirst]

What is OCP?

With GIA, OCP is one of the biggest publishers of Catholic hymnals in the USA. Both publishers have been way ahead of the curve with the new translation and getting new Mass settings ready – they have been having workshops across the country teaching the new settings. They also send out recommendations for what music would be useful for Masses throughout the year (which settings, which hymns, etc).

My guess is that your parish’s choir has been working up the new settings already, and they are probably from OCP or GIA. In my former parish, they have already introduced the new Gloria from GIA. It’s not bad, though it is a bit bland. Listenable and easily singable. I think it’ll go over well. I’m glad that I don’t have to learn it or hear it.

If there is an awful hymn, you can bet it probably came from the song stable of OCP or GIA. Still, some folks really love this music. And the majority of it appears to fit under the GIRM.

Note that OCP and GIA do offer Gregorian chant and traditional msuic, but most choirs don’t use that kind of music.

 

[nickybr38]

With GIA, OCP is one of the biggest publishers of Catholic hymnals in the USA. Both publishers have been way ahead of the curve with the new translation and getting new Mass settings ready – they have been having workshops across the country teaching the new settings. They also send out recommendations for what music would be useful for Masses throughout the year (which settings, which hymns, etc).

My guess is that your parish’s choir has been working up the new settings already, and they are probably from OCP or GIA. In my former parish, they have already introduced the new Gloria from GIA. It’s not bad, though it is a bit bland. Listenable and easily singable. I think it’ll go over well. I’m glad that I don’t have to learn it or hear it.

If there is an awful hymn, you can bet it probably came from the song stable of OCP or GIA. Still, some folks really love this music. And the majority of it appears to fit under the GIRM.

Note that OCP and GIA do offer Gregorian chant and traditional msuic, but most choirs don’t use that kind of music.

Interesting! I’ll ask the lady leading ministries what they’re using. They’ve already asked me twice to join in music ministry so I think it would be okay to ask questions.

Gregorian is so far out of my depth that it’s one thing I wouldn’t be willing to touch without a strong leader to help out.

 

[I_Thirst]

I’m not certain that either leads to sin. Silently weeping in my heart because the music is terrible isn’t a sin… is it?

Asking that we only tackle music that I’m comfortable with isn’t a sin either… is it? (and of course I only mean this in reference to the hymns)

Those are best discussed with your confessor. For me, the first one is sad (and I’ve been there). The second one, for me, would hedge into selfishness – for I’d guess that the hymns were already comfortable for the choir and the congregation.

This is why this is difficult for me to figure out because there is no clear ‘right’ or ‘wrong’… although in all honesty, as I stated before, I feel it’s wrong of me to sit in the pew when I know I CAN help.

I wish you the best of luck, and my prayers are with you. I’ve traveled a path similar to yours (convert, shocked by the music, dismayed by lack of catechesis concerning music, etc). I’ve joined choirs, sat in on music planning meetings, ran a schola cantorum, studied the documents, etc. While I don’t feel that my parish has changed (same ole GIA/OCP hymns as when I converted), I know that I have. I’m grateful that I live in a large enough area so that I can attend something different.

 

[pnewton]

I would suggest that after you settle in, you might see if you can assist with the music. It may be that the time constraints and talent level of the volunteers are factors in the music that is being chosen. If such is the case, and when the situation is one of taste and preference, it is hard to sell extra work that one is not willing to give. On the other hand, if there is an issue like the wrong words being used for the Ordinary, then now might be a good time to say something, as this is the time of transition to the new Mass translation. There is not limit on the number of possible tunes used for this, but the words are not supposed to be changed.