Music Ministry at Modernized Mass

[TheMc]

Posted by nickybr38:
Okay, I think we’re all getting confused here.

Hymns are one thing.
The Ordinary is another. The Ordinary has set words that MUST be sung. How we sing them doesn’t matter. Am I correct? [Well yes and no. Any melody that is dignified, and in the proper style that is acceptable for Mass. IE: There’s not a limited number of melodies that you must use. But I think you get the idea.]

Hymns, on the other hand, have a greater range because they have no set words that must be sung. [Again yes and no. It’s similar to the ordinary: The music must be dignified, and the words must also be dignified and theologically sound (not containing heresy), but yes, there is quite a bit that is allowable.]

The Hymns are at my new parish are the Hymns you hear in the Baptist church just down the street. This isn’t an outright abuse but in all honesty I just don’t like it. Haha. I have flash backs to Protestant land and that wasn’t a nice place.

The Ordinary is not Ordinary.[Please explain. I don’t understand.] The words are not what I read online or hear when I play YouTube versions of them. The melodies are campfire melodies (which, as I now understand, is no big deal so long as the words are proper - which they aren’t).[Well, not quite. “Campfire melodies,” if I’m understanding your description correctly, would not be acceptable. And you are right here, the words must be correct.]

I have never EVER been in a Protestant church where they sang the Ordinary parts of Mass!!! The closest I’ve seen is their version of the Alleluia but even that is different.[That’s probably because they don’t have the Mass. Our ordinary is pretty much a catholic thing.]

But maybe I’m getting confused about the language you guys are using!
[Have I helped you? Does it make more sense? If not, just ask more questions.]

 

[nickybr38]

Gosh, you have really been through them all…but it’s good to know that you are now in the right place spiritually.

I grew up in a family of church hoppers. When I was old enough to choose for myself I chose not to attend church at all. Then the Holy Spirit guided me home.

Anyway, thanks for all the help!

TheMc You’ve been a tremendous help! I definitely understand things better now. The team that was teaching me was focused mainly on helping me understand what goes where but not so much the things you’ve touched on, so this has been a huge help.

What I meant about my parishes Ordinary not being Ordinary is that they were not singing the proper words at any point. They were singing, at one point, a Protestant camp song in the place of the AgnusDei… it was brutal.

Ah well, maybe if I volunteer I can ask for music straight from the hymnals since I have to have the sheet music to follow and the music they were using were tab sheets.

 

[TheMc]

Anyway, thanks for all the help!

TheMc You’ve been a tremendous help! I definitely understand things better now. The team that was teaching me was focused mainly on helping me understand what goes where but not so much the things you’ve touched on, so this has been a huge help.

I’m so glad I’ve been of help. Feel free to PM or post if you have any more questions. I actually enjoy answering questions like this.

What I meant about my parishes Ordinary not being Ordinary is that they were not singing the proper words at any point. They were singing, at one point, a Protestant camp song in the place of the AgnusDei… it was brutal.

Ouch…

 

[MisterCorduroy]

Most bishops are telling the parishes in their diocese which Mass setting to use when we transition to the new Missal, so the parish will not have a choice. The exception are personal parishes. My parish must use the prescribed setting for the first 6 months starting in Advent, then can decide to change it if desired. Hang in there, it may get better in December (or worse depending on the choice of your diocese).

 

[nickybr38]

Most bishops are telling the parishes in their diocese which Mass setting to use when we transition to the new Missal, so the parish will not have a choice. The exception are personal parishes. My parish must use the prescribed setting for the first 6 months starting in Advent, then can decide to change it if desired. Hang in there, it may get better in December (or worse depending on the choice of your diocese).

Well, I don’t think that’s the case in this diocese. In the old parish (which is the same diocese) the music team was given their choice of mass setting. They were already transitioning into the new Ordinary form to prepare the congregation ahead of time. I imagine it will be the same at new parish (as in, they get to pick for themselves what setting they use).

Should be interesting.

 

[MisterCorduroy]

“Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children - from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn - open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.” ~The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter to his son.

 

[Old_Medic]

There is no such thing as “Protestant” Music or “Catholic” Music.

There is Christian Music, or non-Christian music. Music that glorifies God, or the Saints is perfectly acceptable in any Catholic Church. Even Pope John Paul II had much modern church music played at his appearances and masses at World Youth Day, including several “Protestant” songs.

What does it matter who wrote it? “Amazing Grace” is a “Protestant” Hymn, but it is also a statement of faith, and it is not uncommonly sung at Catholic Churches.

I am a rock hard Roman Catholic, but I have Protestant roots, having been raised largely by my Free Methodist Minister maternal Grandfather (this has little in common with any other “Methodist” church, it is very fundamental and Pentacostal in its practices).

I will have the hymn “Onward Christian Soldiers” sung at my funeral, as the exit Hymn. Why? Because I am, and always will be a Soldier, and I believe it expresses exactly what all Christians should be doing with their lives. And, it was the very first Christian hymn that I ever learned.

It is about time that Catholics actually become what the word means, Universal, and stop being so parochial in their beliefs and actions. Music that glorifies God, or moves people to be better Christians is entirely appropriate for any Catholic Religious service, including Mass.

 

[TheMc]

There is no such thing as “Protestant” Music or “Catholic” Music.

There is Christian Music, or non-Christian music. Music that glorifies God, or the Saints is perfectly acceptable in any Catholic Church. Even Pope John Paul II had much modern church music played at his appearances and masses at World Youth Day, including several “Protestant” songs.

What does it matter who wrote it? “Amazing Grace” is a “Protestant” Hymn, but it is also a statement of faith, and it is not uncommonly sung at Catholic Churches.

I am a rock hard Roman Catholic, but I have Protestant roots, having been raised largely by my Free Methodist Minister maternal Grandfather (this has little in common with any other “Methodist” church, it is very fundamental and Pentacostal in its practices).

I will have the hymn “Onward Christian Soldiers” sung at my funeral, as the exit Hymn. Why? Because I am, and always will be a Soldier, and I believe it expresses exactly what all Christians should be doing with their lives. And, it was the very first Christian hymn that I ever learned.

It is about time that Catholics actually become what the word means, Universal, and stop being so parochial in their beliefs and actions. Music that glorifies God, or moves people to be better Christians is entirely appropriate for any Catholic Religious service, including Mass.

Actually, I beg to differ. There is a difference between catholic hymnody and protestant hymnody. I can’t think of any off the top of my head, but what would you call a hymn that is blatantly anti-catholic? That’s just one example.

 

[nickybr38]

There is no such thing as “Protestant” Music or “Catholic” Music.

There is Christian Music, or non-Christian music. Music that glorifies God, or the Saints is perfectly acceptable in any Catholic Church. Even Pope John Paul II had much modern church music played at his appearances and masses at World Youth Day, including several “Protestant” songs.

What does it matter who wrote it? “Amazing Grace” is a “Protestant” Hymn, but it is also a statement of faith, and it is not uncommonly sung at Catholic Churches.

I am a rock hard Roman Catholic, but I have Protestant roots, having been raised largely by my Free Methodist Minister maternal Grandfather (this has little in common with any other “Methodist” church, it is very fundamental and Pentacostal in its practices).

I will have the hymn “Onward Christian Soldiers” sung at my funeral, as the exit Hymn. Why? Because I am, and always will be a Soldier, and I believe it expresses exactly what all Christians should be doing with their lives. And, it was the very first Christian hymn that I ever learned.

It is about time that Catholics actually become what the word means, Universal, and stop being so parochial in their beliefs and actions. Music that glorifies God, or moves people to be better Christians is entirely appropriate for any Catholic Religious service, including Mass.

All good points. I, personally, do not like much of modern Protestant music. I do not think it is prayerful at all. I don’t think it fits the Mass well either (thus, why I complained about it).

I don’t like much modern music at all though. I’m a baroque girl in reality.

To me, hearing modern music written for Protestant worship services is just jarring in the context of the Mass.

The Protestant worship service is very different from the Mass… Very, very different. Therefore, music written for a Protestant worship service won’t necessarily be appropriate for Mass.

I understand that you like this music and I understand that I am biased… but I wonder what the objective truth really is?

Would it be appropriate to play a Hindu worship song in the Mass? If no… then why is it okay to play a Protestant worship song at Mass?

I’m just wondering, that’s all, not trying to attack here… just trying to think it out.

 

[nickybr38]

“Also I can recommend this as an exercise (alas! only too easy to find opportunity for): make your communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gabbling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children - from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn - open necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same (or better than that) as a mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand - after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.” ~The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter to his son.

I have only been to one Mass that I truly enjoyed so I’m building up all kinds of character. Yay for living in rural areas!

 

[liturgyluver]

There is no such thing as “Protestant” Music or “Catholic” Music.

There is Christian Music, or non-Christian music. Music that glorifies God, or the Saints is perfectly acceptable in any Catholic Church. Even Pope John Paul II had much modern church music played at his appearances and masses at World Youth Day, including several “Protestant” songs.

What does it matter who wrote it? “Amazing Grace” is a “Protestant” Hymn, but it is also a statement of faith, and it is not uncommonly sung at Catholic Churches.

I am a rock hard Roman Catholic, but I have Protestant roots, having been raised largely by my Free Methodist Minister maternal Grandfather (this has little in common with any other “Methodist” church, it is very fundamental and Pentacostal in its practices).

It is about time that Catholics actually become what the word means, Universal, and stop being so parochial in their beliefs and actions. Music that glorifies God, or moves people to be better Christians is entirely appropriate for any Catholic Religious service, including Mass.

I agree with the general thrust of what you are saying in terms of how it should apply to mass today. Most - if not all - the hymnals in use today include material that has eminated from both Catholic and Protestant Sources.

I would add, though, that if one looks at the position historically then one can identify
i) hymns that originated in Latin - eg Veni Creator Spiritus, Veni Veni Emmanuael

ii) those written in the protestant churches including the german hymns written by Luther and translated into English, those written by Anglicans and the free church eg Glory to thee my God this night, O God our help in ages past, When I survey the wondorous cross, Ye Holy Angels Bright, Abide with me, As with gladness men of Old, and the Wesleyn hymns eg Love Divine all love excelling, O for a thousand tongues to sing.

iii) the translation of further Latin hymns into English as a result of the Oxford movement of the 19th century eg Blessed City heavenly Salem, All Glory Laud and Honour.

Vatican II then resulted in rush of hymnody from Catholic writers which were obviously more modern and folksy and these also found their way into protestant hymnals, as did some of the material above.

The hymnals of both Catholic and protestant traditions therefore now contain a core of common material which draws on the historical material outlined above. A modern sounding hymn is probably more likely to have been written by a Catholic writer, and a traditional hymn will more likely have its source from a protestant route: so in terms of preferences its probably more helpful to identify material as traditional or contemporary rather than giving it a denominational label.

I would stress I am only talking about hymns: not the sacred gregorian music and plainchant that is most definately Catholic and rightly continues to play an important role today.

 

[nickybr38]

I agree with the general thrust of what you are saying in terms of how it should apply to mass today. Most - if not all - the hymnals in use today include material that has eminated from both Catholic and Protestant Sources.

I would add, though, that if one looks at the position historically then one can identify
i) hymns that originated in Latin - eg Veni Creator Spiritus, Veni Veni Emmanuael

ii) those written in the protestant churches including the german hymns written by Luther and translated into English, those written by Anglicans and the free church eg Glory to thee my God this night, O God our help in ages past, When I survey the wondorous cross, Ye Holy Angels Bright, Abide with me, As with gladness men of Old, and the Wesleyn hymns eg Love Divine all love excelling, O for a thousand tongues to sing.

iii) the translation of further Latin hymns into English as a result of the Oxford movement of the 19th century eg Blessed City heavenly Salem, All Glory Laud and Honour.

Vatican II then resulted in rush of hymnody from Catholic writers which were obviously more modern and folksy and these also found their way into protestant hymnals, as did some of the material above.

The hymnals of both Catholic and protestant traditions therefore now contain a core of common material which draws on the historical material outlined above. A modern sounding hymn is probably more likely to have been written by a Catholic writer, and a traditional hymn will more likely have its source from a protestant route: so in terms of preferences its probably more helpful to identify material as traditional or contemporary rather than giving it a denominational label.

I would stress I am only talking about hymns: not the sacred gregorian music and plainchant that is most definately Catholic and rightly continues to play an important role today.

I forgot something vital while making my points.

There is a difference between a Protestant hymn and a Protestant CHORUS. I remember many churches that refused to play ‘hymns’ because they were too old and stale and the congregation didn’t enjoy them anymore. So they only played choruses and only particular choruses because even some of the choruses were too reflective. The churches I attended only ever wanted to hear upbeat dance like songs.

I’ve noticed in the Catholic church there are just ‘hymns’. There’s no distinction of hymn or chorus… that I’ve seen so far anyway.

The music I was complaining about would more rightly be called a Protestant ‘chorus’ and thus it IS denominational because they are indeed called choruses and not hymns in the Protestant tradition.

 

[liturgyluver]

I forgot something vital while making my points.

There is a difference between a Protestant hymn and a Protestant CHORUS. I remember many churches that refused to play ‘hymns’ because they were too old and stale and the congregation didn’t enjoy them anymore. So they only played choruses and only particular choruses because even some of the choruses were too reflective. The churches I attended only ever wanted to hear upbeat dance like songs.

I’ve noticed in the Catholic church there are just ‘hymns’. There’s no distinction of hymn or chorus… that I’ve seen so far anyway.

The music I was complaining about would more rightly be called a Protestant ‘chorus’ and thus it IS denominational because they are indeed called choruses and not hymns in the Protestant tradition.

Intersting, I haven’t heard this term used before to describe what you are describing which is essentially a modern worship song? Was the chorus sung by all or just by the choir or music group? Any examples?

I think the word may stem from the tradition in the reformed churches of singing a chorale and a doxology.

 

[nickybr38]

Intersting, I haven’t heard this term used before to describe what you are describing which is essentially a modern worship song? Was the chorus sung by all or just by the choir or music group? Any examples?

I think the word may stem from the tradition in the reformed churches of singing a chorale and a doxology.

I’m not even sure where the term comes from but I know there was a distinction in the churches I attended between a chorus and a hymn. I just forgot about that while complaining. I’ve adopted Catholic terminology too well into my vocabulary. Haha! I even call pastors priests sometimes. Whoops.

I suppose a chorus would be a modern worship song. The likes of: Did you hear the mountains tremble?, Lord I lift your name on high, Jesus name above all names, ancient of days, shout to the lord (which was sung at Mass) would have been termed ‘choruses’ in the churches I attended.

This is the terminology I learned but I could have been taught incorrectly.

I would be curious to know where the word chorus did come from!!! When I hear chorus I think the refrain, not an entire song. Haha.

 

[liturgyluver]

I’m not even sure where the term comes from but I know there was a distinction in the churches I attended between a chorus and a hymn. I just forgot about that while complaining. I’ve adopted Catholic terminology too well into my vocabulary. Haha! I even call pastors priests sometimes. Whoops.

I suppose a chorus would be a modern worship song. The likes of: Did you hear the mountains tremble?, Lord I lift your name on high, Jesus name above all names, ancient of days, shout to the lord (which was sung at Mass) would have been termed ‘choruses’ in the churches I attended.

This is the terminology I learned but I could have been taught incorrectly.

I would be curious to know where the word chorus did come from!!! When I hear chorus I think the refrain, not an entire song. Haha.

Having looked these up, I think they would be more accurately described as worship songs that have their roots in the pentecostal or charismatic strands of christianity. One thing is sure though - as you say, they are completely inappropraite for mass.

 

[I_Thirst]

I thought they were also called Praise and Worship songs?

 

[nickybr38]

Having looked these up, I think they would be more accurately described as worship songs that have their roots in the pentecostal or charismatic strands of christianity. One thing is sure though - as you say, they are completely inappropraite for mass.

That’s what I thought (the inappropriate for Mass part). I guess they aren’t accurately called hymns. Sorry for not terming them correctly!