Muslim asked, "If Jesus is God, then why did his Apostle John write in his Gospel, after seeing and spending years with Jesus, that 'No one has ever s

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daler said:
. It all goes back to whether or not one accepts the simple definition, by which I mean no offense, that “Jesus is God”.

. That has always troubled me in light of so much that He (Jesus) said:

. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”

. 'My Father is greater than I"

etc.

. Sometimes I think that when the idea that “Cesar is God” was debunked, people had a need to fill the void with another person. Like, “Well, if Cesar isn’t God, who is?”

. The idea that the Infinite God Creator of billions of galaxies can be incorporated, or incarnated into a human being who Himself says: “These aren’t My words” seems to be a stretch of the imagination and carried out for the sake of expediency. (No offense intended to however others hold their beliefs)

. I think we must not simplify God to make Him fit inside our own head so that we can view Him with our own eyeballs and say, “There He is!”

“No man hath seen God and lived”
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Thats because you have no concept of the Trinity. It is complicated I will give you that.

See God who was Jesus God made Man took on human flesh and temporary made lower then the angels.Think of what Jesus said. Really think on this.

In John l7 he said Father the hour HAS COME so that your Son may glorify you. I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do. Now Glorify ME Father WITH YOU with the Glory that I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE the world began.

Does any of this make sense to you.

Jesus glorify’s God in the name of the Father. The Father glorify’s God in the name of the Son and they both glorify God in the name of the Spirit.

Think how Jesus says everything of mine is yours and everything of yours are mine. Why? Becaue there is only ONE GOD.

Righteous Father the world also does not know you but I know you and they know that yhou sent me. I made know to them your name and will make it known that the love which you loved me may be in them and I in them.

Read John 14:28
 
at any rate, it’s not true that noone has ever seen Gd. If this was Jesus who said this I’m surprised because I thought he knew the Torah better. Moses saw Gd. not all of him but he saw his back. As a matter of fact it was subject of this mornings Torah reading.
 
rinnie said:
Thats because you have no concept of the Trinity. It is complicated I will give you that.

See God who was Jesus God made Man took on human flesh and temporary made lower then the angels.Think of what Jesus said. Really think on this.

In John l7 he said Father the hour HAS COME so that your Son may glorify you. I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do. Now Glorify ME Father WITH YOU with the Glory that I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE the world began.

Does any of this make sense to you.

Jesus glorify’s God in the name of the Father. The Father glorify’s God in the name of the Son and they both glorify God in the name of the Spirit.

Think how Jesus says everything of mine is yours and everything of yours are mine. Why? Becaue there is only ONE GOD.

Righteous Father the world also does not know you but I know you and they know that yhou sent me. I made know to them your name and will make it known that the love which you loved me may be in them and I in them.

Read John 14:28
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Dear rinnie,

This is a question that must arise after reading your post. (And please remember that my understanding in the Trinity is that I have a pretty firm belief in it)

Who is God, and who is the Father? Are they two separate Entities? If so, how do they differ?
 
504Katrin said:
at any rate, it’s not true that noone has ever seen Gd. If this was Jesus who said this I’m surprised because I thought he knew the Torah better. Moses saw Gd. not all of him but he saw his back. As a matter of fact it was subject of this mornings Torah reading.
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Interesting Katrin 🙂

Do you have a reference for Moses having seen the back of God?
Exodus 33?
 
504Katrin said:
at any rate, it’s not true that noone has ever seen Gd. If this was Jesus who said this I’m surprised because I thought he knew the Torah better. Moses saw Gd. not all of him but he saw his back. As a matter of fact it was subject of this mornings Torah reading.
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You are correct, Katrin.

But if I only saw your back, I’m not sure I would recognize you if we met again later. If I saw your face, however, I probably would.
 
Randy_Carson said:
You are correct, Katrin.

But if I only saw your back, I’m not sure I would recognize you if we met again later. If I saw your face, however, I probably would.
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Surely the face of God has purely symbolic connotations. To start talking about humanize do facets of our Unknowable Creator really starts to demean His Majesty surely…
 
Servant19 said:
Interesting Katrin 🙂

Do you have a reference for Moses having seen the back of God?
Exodus 33?
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yes of course I do. This situation is actually quite romantic, like between two lovers and reminds me of the song of songs:
12 Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”
14 The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”
15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”
17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
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21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
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biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+33&version=NIV

In my opinion, this is one of the most romantic, if not the most romantic, conversation Gd has had during this time. The love and dedication between the two becomes so obvious. Almost brings a tear to my eye, and stirs all my heartstrings 🙂
 
Did I say something wrong? All of a sudden noone’s posting in here anymore.
 
rinnie said:
Thats because you have no concept of the Trinity. It is complicated I will give you that.

See God who was Jesus God made Man took on human flesh and temporary made lower then the angels.Think of what Jesus said. Really think on this.

In John l7 he said Father the hour HAS COME so that your Son may glorify you. I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do. Now Glorify ME Father WITH YOU with the Glory that I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE the world began.

Does any of this make sense to you.

Jesus glorify’s God in the name of the Father. The Father glorify’s God in the name of the Son and they both glorify God in the name of the Spirit.

Think how Jesus says everything of mine is yours and everything of yours are mine. Why? Becaue there is only ONE GOD.

Righteous Father the world also does not know you but I know you and they know that yhou sent me. I made know to them your name and will make it known that the love which you loved me may be in them and I in them.

Read John 14:28
Click to expand...
Rinnie,
. I was raised on the idea of the Trinity, but over time, my understanding has changed. “God is God”, and God knows everything, and Jesus clearly stated that He didn’t. For example:

. When asked “When shall these things be?” Jesus replied:

. "“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Mark 13:32 NIV

. No offense to anybody’s beliefs here, but there is a definite separation between Jesus and God, and to try and make Him God misses something important. Honest to God, I think its almost a shell game, whether intentional or not, passed on out of “tradition” as though nobody is supposed to notice or something.

. People don’t want problems, and the above verse creates a problem for people who want to make Jesus God. I’m not saying He wasn’t sent by God, because He was:

. "So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.”

. Thus, God must be divided and multiplied to fit the Trinity model, which tends to fall apart upon examination. There is “herd pressure” on people to get them to nod their heads in agreement on this despite the obvious.
 
504Katrin said:
Did I say something wrong? All of a sudden noone’s posting in here anymore.
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Katrin,
. I wanted to ask you something. Forgive me for being rather ignorant on Jewish background, but apart from what Christians normally refer to as the Old Testament, what else do you refer to as Scripture? Do you essentially have the same Genesis through Malachi set of “Books” commonly found in the Bible?

. Thank you so much. I’ve been wondering about this for some time… 😉
 
daler said:
. No offense to anybody’s beliefs here, but there is a definite separation between Jesus and God, and to try and make Him God misses something important.
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:rolleyes:

The only reason comments like these exist here is that CAF is extremely charitable. :sad_yes:

MJ
 
daler said:
Rinnie,
. I was raised on the idea of the Trinity, but over time, my understanding has changed. “God is God”, and God knows everything, and Jesus clearly stated that He didn’t. For example:

. When asked “When shall these things be?” Jesus replied:

. "“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Mark 13:32 NIV

. No offense to anybody’s beliefs here, but there is a definite separation between Jesus and God, and to try and make Him God misses something important. Honest to God, I think its almost a shell game, whether intentional or not, passed on out of “tradition” as though nobody is supposed to notice or something.

. People don’t want problems, and the above verse creates a problem for people who want to make Jesus God. I’m not saying He wasn’t sent by God, because He was:

. "So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.”

. Thus, God must be divided and multiplied to fit the Trinity model, which tends to fall apart upon examination. There is “herd pressure” on people to get them to nod their heads in agreement on this despite the obvious.
Click to expand...
Doesn’t Philippians 2:5-8 cover this?
 
MartinJordan said:
:rolleyes:

The only reason comments like these exist here is that CAF is extremely charitable. :sad_yes:

MJ
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Martin,
. I mean no disrespect in what I am saying. I sincerely cannot resolve it in the usual sense where the One Who says, “My Father is greater than I” and “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”
. As I say, I grew up on this belief, but it simply doesn’t work for me anymore. I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else, but it is also true that in dealing with dogma there is a great deal of herd pressure to just simply conform and agree with something.
. If I were to try and sell you a car and tell you that the wheel is the engine, would you buy it? You can roll a wheel down the road, but as part of the car, it depends upon the engine to make it turn. It is as though the wheel says, “The engine is greater than I” and “My energy comes not from myself, but from the engine that spins me.”

. If you apply the same principals of logic, the one simply does not equal the other according to its own testimony.
 
daler said:
Martin,
. I mean no disrespect in what I am saying. I sincerely cannot resolve it in the usual sense where the One Who says, “My Father is greater than I” and “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”
. As I say, I grew up on this belief, but it simply doesn’t work for me anymore. I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else, but it is also true that in dealing with dogma there is a great deal of herd pressure to just simply conform and agree with something.
. If I were to try and sell you a car and tell you that the wheel is the engine, would you buy it? You can roll a wheel down the road, but as part of the car, it depends upon the engine to make it turn. It is as though the wheel says, “The engine is greater than I” and “My energy comes not from myself, but from the engine that spins me.”

. If you apply the same principals of logic, the one simply does not equal the other according to its own testimony.
Click to expand...
We have OUR Faith and our Faith Lights our Path through prayer and discernment. There is No necessity for us to depend on our earthly minds.

You NEED to understand the CONTEXT of EVERYTHING Jesus said. Plus Trust in The Church Jesus built.

MJ
 
daler said:
Katrin,
. I wanted to ask you something. Forgive me for being rather ignorant on Jewish background, but apart from what Christians normally refer to as the Old Testament, what else do you refer to as Scripture? Do you essentially have the same Genesis through Malachi set of “Books” commonly found in the Bible?

. Thank you so much. I’ve been wondering about this for some time… 😉
Click to expand...
I’m afraid, I don’t know which books you have exactly in your bible so I can’t tell if we have the same in the Tanakh 😊
Is there the book of Rut for instance, Jeremiah, and the others? 😊
The books we definately have in common like Mose’s books, aren’t exactly the same in regards to translations. A lot gets lost with translation. The hebrew language is so rich and so, so deep. It’s the language with which the world was created. It must be. Sometimes in the Torah single letters are written upside down, or in capital letters instead of small letters or the other way around. Those little changes give more hints to certain meanings. Many things that are told in the hebrew language simply can’t be properly translated. For instance, our bed time prayer. There’s a sentence that says that Gd might look at our resting place favorably (vague translation from German into English), however, in Hebrew the following is said: “HaShem YOU fill my bed with you PLEASE!” And this contains an entire sea of emotions and dedication, a desperate plea and a cry out to Gd, and a longing for Gd to fill out everything and even in one’s sleep. Its meaning is infinite in itself and doesn’t get conveyed in the translation. And this prayer is only one drop of water in a sea of entire seas. I won’t live long enough to grasp all of our prayers and bring them down to my heart, let alone all the meanings hidden in scripture like the Torah and the Talmud. We have the written law and the oral law (Talmud) we refer to. If you want to walk the right way, in my opinion, the Schulchan Aruch is a necessary companion also.
 
There is a reason why the Trinity is called a Mystery.

You can’t logic your way to a revealed Mystery, You can logic your way to believing the Mystery though.

Understanding who Jesus was in nature and what he did (world history), leads us to trust what he taught.

Which helps with the understanding of the Trinity concept.

It also helps to have His Church’s theologians over time write massive amounts on the subject so as to continue the journey toward ‘fullness of truth’.
 
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