Muslim asked, "If Jesus is God, then why did his Apostle John write in his Gospel, after seeing and spending years with Jesus, that 'No one has ever s

[Servant19]

Muhammad was not God incarnate and never claimed to be. Moses was not God incarnate and never claimed to be. Abraham was not God incarnate and never claimed to be. Jesus, on the other hand, did claim to be God incarnate; the Son of Man and the Son of God. What Jesus did that none of the others did was to be resurrected from the dead, of his own power. Thus the reason that hose who hold them all as equal manifestations of God must reject the resurrection. That is what makes Jesus different. He made the claim and proved the claim.

Just because they didn’t claim don’t make it so

(I could spend an entire fortnight in Vietnam and NOT ONCE did I mention that I was a dentist. In fact, I performed some magic tricks for the locals, and they called me “miracle man” (lol), but that never stopped me from being a dentist)

If Jesus, who claimed to be God, DID say that Abraham and Moses WERE God also, would you believe Him? Of course you would, even if Moses never claim as such Himself

Baha’u’llah claimed to be God, just as Jesus did. He said what Jesus didn’t say, and that is that Abraham, Moses, Muhammad and all the Manifestations of God were ALL God, manifested in DIFFERENT human representations/frames/bodies. So I believe Him, and it does not in any way contradict Jesus…

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Just because they didn’t claim don’t make it so

(I could spend an entire fortnight in Vietnam and NOT ONCE did I mention that I was a dentist. In fact, I performed some magic tricks for the locals, and they called me “miracle man” (lol), but that never stopped me from being a dentist)

If Jesus, who claimed to be God, DID say that Abraham and Moses WERE God also, would you believe Him? Of course you would, even if Moses never claim as such Himself

Baha’u’llah claimed to be God, just as Jesus did. He said what Jesus didn’t say, and that is that Abraham, Moses, Muhammad and all the Manifestations of God were ALL God, manifested in DIFFERENT human representations/frames/bodies. So I believe Him, and it does not in any way contradict Jesus…

Jesus Christ was the first who claimed to be God. To support His claim He pointed to His promised coming in the Jewish Scriptures, by doing extaordinary miracles that only One who had complete control over the material universe could perform - raising the dead, walking on water, commanding the elements to do what he wished, casting out demons, restoring sight to those born blind ( etc. ), foretelling His own persecution, death, type of death, and His Resurrection, the unsurpassed purity and holiness of His moral teaching, His Resurrection from death, His Ascension into Heaven, the establishment of His Church, which He promised would last to the end of time, His promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit Who would protect His Church from error. But he warned of false prophets to come.

There were thousands of witnesses to all this, witnesses from all walks of life in Israel.

Only a few individuals after Him claimed to be Divine. None of them provided the proofs He gave. Therefore all such claims after Him are proven false.

I would suggest you read a Catholic Bible ( the Douay-Rheims, with Haydock commentary, is preferred), and a history of the Catholic Church.

Baha’ullah was not god, and there is no evidence for this claim. Nor has any other individual making a similar claim given any credible proof for the claim. It is a well known fact that Muhammed got his own " theology " from heretical forms of Christianity that existed at his time. Nor is there any proof that an angel appeared to him, only his own word. He used the power of arms and cultural prejudices to attract followers and enforce his claims.

And the absolute uniqueness of his Theology must be pointed out. He said He and the Father were One, and He promised the coming of a third Person, the Holy Spirit ( later defined by His Church as also Divine and One with the Father and the Son), Whom He would send to protect His Church from all error. This has been done, the Church has grown and prospered and never diveated from His teachings in Faith and Morals.

Linus2nd

 

[Servant19]

Servant19,

Your revision to the wiki statement brings up some additional problems. Catholics have no problem saying that God (not just the Father, but the whole Trinity) is often addressed by titles and attributes such as All-Powerful and All-Loving. To reduce these titles and attributes to just the Father, would actually lessen the truth, not increase it.

Likewise, to say that God is single (or one) and has no equal, is not a problem to us. We believe that God is one, and there are no other equal gods besides Him. Even saying that the Father is single (or one) is not a problem, since He is only one of the Trinity, but it can become a problem if we were to additionally say that the Father has no equal.

Catholics believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal in Divinity. Now, in the order of eternal generation and eternal procession, the Father is 1st, the Son is 2nd, and the Holy Spirit is 3rd, so only in this sense, in the sense of order, can the term inequality be applied, but not in the sense of one being more or less God than the other.

In addition to what Steve wrote, here are some further comments:

The basic answer to the first question is that we believe these things about Jesus, and only Jesus, is because this is what has been handed down to us by Jesus, His Apostles and their successors (the Church). Christians have been warned ahead of time not to fall for other “christs”, other “gospels”, other “spirits”, and other “prophets”. There are several passages in Scriptures that point this out:

“Take heed that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, `I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray” (Matt. 24:4-5).

“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed” (Gal. 1:8)

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God” (1 John 4:1-3).

So, with regards Islam for example, Muhammad taught that Jesus was not the Son of God Incarnate. To us, this teaching is another “gospel”, another “spirit”, and does not come from the Spirit of God. Muhammad, therefore, can not be a messenger, or prophet, or ultimately a Manifestation of God like how Jesus is a Manifestation of God. A true Manifestation of God can not teach one thing in one era, and then turn around and teach the complete opposite in another era.

As to your second question, I’ll just borrow Steve’s statement above: “He made the claim and proved the claim”. Ultimately, the resurrection of Jesus proved all His claims, and so He is the only Man that can ever be considered to be the one and only Manifestation of God. None of the other men whom you consider as Manifestations of God resurrected from the grave, and that’s because they were simply men and nothing more.

God bless,

Rony

Hi Rony, my apologies for the delayed response. I can’t believe I missed it.

In order to respect the contents of this thread, would you mind I address your post, in a couple of hours, on the Bahai thread?

If you don’t mind, I will provide a link once I’ve posted a response for you

 

[Servant19]

Jesus Christ was the first who claimed to be God. To support His claim He pointed to His promised coming in the Jewish Scriptures, by doing extaordinary miracles that only One who had complete control over the material universe could perform - raising the dead, walking on water, commanding the elements to do what he wished, casting out demons, restoring sight to those born blind ( etc. ), foretelling His own persecution, death, type of death, and His Resurrection, the unsurpassed purity and holiness of His moral teaching, His Resurrection from death, His Ascension into Heaven, the establishment of His Church, which He promised would last to the end of time, His promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit Who would protect His Church from error. But he warned of false prophets to come.

There were thousands of witnesses to all this, witnesses from all walks of life in Israel.

Only a few individuals after Him claimed to be Divine. None of them provided the proofs He gave. Therefore all such claims after Him are proven false.

I would suggest you read a Catholic Bible ( the Douay-Rheims, with Haydock commentary, is preferred), and a history of the Catholic Church.

Baha’ullah was not god, and there is no evidence for this claim. Nor has any other individual making a similar claim given any credible proof for the claim. It is a well known fact that Muhammed got his own " theology " from heretical forms of Christianity that existed at his time. Nor is there any proof that an angel appeared to him, only his own word. He used the power of arms and cultural prejudices to attract followers and enforce his claims.

And the absolute uniqueness of his Theology must be pointed out. He said He and the Father were One, and He promised the coming of a third Person, the Holy Spirit ( later defined by His Church as also Divine and One with the Father and the Son), Whom He would send to protect His Church from all error. This has been done, the Church has grown and prospered and never diveated from His teachings in Faith and Morals.

Linus2nd

Actually Linus, Lord Jesus was not the first to claim that He was God, Krishna was, and Krishna also performed some pretty astounding miracles Himself, some even more astounding than Jesus (holding a mountain on top of His fingertips for several days comes to mind, amongst many others)

You say there were thousands of witnesses to Jesus’ miracles, who were they and where are their historical accounts?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Actually Linus, Lord Jesus was not the first to claim that He was God, Krishna was, and Krishna also performed some pretty astounding miracles Himself, some even more astounding than Jesus (holding a mountain on top of His fingertips for several days comes to mind, amongst many others)

You say there were thousands of witnesses to Jesus’ miracles, who were they and where are their historical accounts?

You know in the ancinet world there were wars and these were thought by tens of thousands of People, why don’t we have their historical accounts? How long ago are we seperated by the events any given document describes? What is the time between the earliest copies and what is their geographical spread? These are things questions that might help you understand something about history. We don’t have thousands of peoples accounts because they are either lost, never written down in the first place or perhaps there was something already written down. We do have historical accounts, its called the New testament and the gospels.

 

[SteveVH]

Just because they didn’t claim don’t make it so

(I could spend an entire fortnight in Vietnam and NOT ONCE did I mention that I was a dentist. In fact, I performed some magic tricks for the locals, and they called me “miracle man” (lol), but that never stopped me from being a dentist)

If Jesus, who claimed to be God, DID say that Abraham and Moses WERE God also, would you believe Him? Of course you would, even if Moses never claim as such Himself

Baha’u’llah claimed to be God, just as Jesus did. He said what Jesus didn’t say, and that is that Abraham, Moses, Muhammad and all the Manifestations of God were ALL God, manifested in DIFFERENT human representations/frames/bodies. So I believe Him, and it does not in any way contradict Jesus…

Why do you believe him?

 

[ronyodish]

Hi Rony, my apologies for the delayed response. I can’t believe I missed it.

In order to respect the contents of this thread, would you mind I address your post, in a couple of hours, on the Bahai thread?

If you don’t mind, I will provide a link once I’ve posted a response for you

I don’t mind.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Servant19]

I don’t mind.

God bless,

Rony

Thankyou for your kind consideration Rony

God bless you!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=811605&page=29

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rony,

Baha’i theology indicates that the Manifestations of God (such as Jesus, Muhammad, Baha’u’llah etc) have a human aspect (namely body and soul) and a DIVINE aspect which occupies a station which will never be understood by any human mind.

The Father, in His essence, is beyond all of these aspects however and resides in a plane of existence all on His own, however there is definitely an “unknown” sharing of substance between the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Divine Aspect of the Manifestation of God.

What the nature of that substance which is shared is, is a mystery.

Hope that makes sense

Hi I have a couple questions if you don’t mind. Now you are saying Muhammad is a manifestation of God? Why did Muhammah himself only profess to be a self-proclaimed prophet. A Prophet and God are 2 totally different things.

Abraham never claimed to be God, He himself said he was never God.

Now no offense but Muhammad did not even understand the true word of God. The Monks were pretty harsh and made fun of him because he had no clue to what the word of God even was.

How could a Man who could not even read or did not even know the true word of God interpret in a divine way?

The Catholic Church teaches no only that Jesus was divine and human it teaches he IS GOD.

You seem to be saying Muhammad IS GOD or CLAIMED to be God. I don’t even believe the Muslims teach this. Am I wrong?

The Muslims from what I have read accept God as the God of Abraham, NOT Abraham THE GOD.

 

[Servant19]

Hi I have a couple questions if you don’t mind. Now you are saying Muhammad is a manifestation of God? Why did Muhammah himself only profess to be a self-proclaimed prophet. A Prophet and God are 2 totally different things.

Hi rinnie,

Since my understandings are from the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, and His expositions on the reality of religion and its purpose, I will offer you my thoughts in this context…

The religious/spiritual climate surrounding Muhammads Revelation was deeply idolatrous. The centrality of Muhammad’s Message was to to usher the Arabian tribes out of the this false idolatry and to worship the One True God.

Were God to reveal to Muhammad that He should also extend Himself to be a God also, then Muhammad would have simply become another “idol” for worship, and it would have defeated the entire purpose of His Dispensation.

The Dispensation of Muhammad was pure and simply to raise a nation of tribes to be submissive to One God, at all costs, eliminating ALL thoughts of any other worship other than the One God.

According to the Baha’i Writings, Manifestations of God are given specific Messages to raise the consciousness of populations of a specific age out of their spiritual slumber and blindness. They educate the population to draw them closer to God and live a way of life that is pleasing to the sight of God. Muhammad’s Message did that and raised a tremendous civilization which contributed great things towards advancing humanity.

He would never have proclaimed Himself to be God or “a God” since this would have been counter-productive to His specific Mission. This does not however remove Him from His inner reality which is the same for ALL Manifestations of God.

They are all begotten from the One Father and share in His Divinity. Whether they proclaim this or not is irrelevant.

Abraham never claimed to be God, He himself said he was never God.

Again, just because this was not announced does not make it so…

Now no offense but Muhammad did not even understand the true word of God. The Monks were pretty harsh and made fun of him because he had no clue to what the word of God even was.

…or so it seemed.
When I was at primary school, I was taught by a phD physics teacher. He taught me that the nucleus of an atom contained neutrons and protons and that electrons were confined to a cloud surrounding the nucleus.

At high school, I was taught, by a different physics teacher, that there are actually LOTS of electrons in the nucleus of an atom.

Would it be fair of me to now dismiss the primary school teacher as a “physics retard”??

How could a Man who could not even read or did not even know the true word of God interpret in a divine way?

The fact that He could not read and write made His accomplishment even more outstanding. God loves illiterates, carpenters, etc etc

The Catholic Church teaches no only that Jesus was divine and human it teaches he IS GOD.

Yes, that is correct, Baha’is also believe the same thing, and believe the same thing of Baha’u’llah too…

You seem to be saying Muhammad IS GOD or CLAIMED to be God. I don’t even believe the Muslims teach this. Am I wrong?

The Muslims from what I have read accept God as the God of Abraham, NOT Abraham THE GOD.

No you are not wrong, Muslims do believe this, but Baha’u’llahs Revelation sheds light on this as explained above, regarding “specific Messages” for “specific populations” at a “specific era or age in history”

Hope that helps and God bless

 

[rinnie]

Hi rinnie,

Since my understandings are from the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, and His expositions on the reality of religion and its purpose, I will offer you my thoughts in this context…

The religious/spiritual climate surrounding Muhammads Revelation was deeply idolatrous. The centrality of Muhammad’s Message was to to usher the Arabian tribes out of the this false idolatry and to worship the One True God.

Were God to reveal to Muhammad that He should also extend Himself to be a God also, then Muhammad would have simply become another “idol” for worship, and it would have defeated the entire purpose of His Dispensation.

The Dispensation of Muhammad was pure and simply to raise a nation of tribes to be submissive to One God, at all costs, eliminating ALL thoughts of any other worship other than the One God.

According to the Baha’i Writings, Manifestations of God are given specific Messages to raise the consciousness of populations of a specific age out of their spiritual slumber and blindness. They educate the population to draw them closer to God and live a way of life that is pleasing to the sight of God. Muhammad’s Message did that and raised a tremendous civilization which contributed great things towards advancing humanity.

He would never have proclaimed Himself to be God or “a God” since this would have been counter-productive to His specific Mission. This does not however remove Him from His inner reality which is the same for ALL Manifestations of God.

They are all begotten from the One Father and share in His Divinity. Whether they proclaim this or not is irrelevant.

Again, just because this was not announced does not make it so…

…or so it seemed.
When I was at primary school, I was taught by a phD physics teacher. He taught me that the nucleus of an atom contained neutrons and protons and that electrons were confined to a cloud surrounding the nucleus.

At high school, I was taught, by a different physics teacher, that there are actually LOTS of electrons in the nucleus of an atom.

Would it be fair of me to now dismiss the primary school teacher as a “physics retard”??

The fact that He could not read and write made His accomplishment even more outstanding. God loves illiterates, carpenters, etc etc

Yes, that is correct, Baha’is also believe the same thing, and believe the same thing of Baha’u’llah too…

No you are not wrong, Muslims do believe this, but Baha’u’llahs Revelation sheds light on this as explained above, regarding “specific Messages” for “specific populations” at a “specific era or age in history”

Hope that helps and God bless

Now you said they are all begotton by one Father. Where did this teaching come from? Thanks!

 

[Servant19]

Now you said they are all begotton by one Father. Where did this teaching come from? Thanks!

The body of Bahai Writings comprising of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and the subsequent authoritative Writings of Abdu’l-Baha and then His great grandson, Shoghi Effendi

 

[rinnie]

The body of Bahai Writings comprising of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and the subsequent authoritative Writings of Abdu’l-Baha and then His great grandson, Shoghi Effendi

Thanks for your patience and kindness. But what confuses me we are speaking of the same Muhammad as the same Muhammad teaching’s that Muslims follow correct?

If so how could we have such a huge conflict here. Or is Bahai just someone who wrote about Muhammad not what Muhammad taught.

Please excuse me for my ingnorance here, I am really confused.

 

[Servant19]

Thanks for your patience and kindness. But what confuses me we are speaking of the same Muhammad as the same Muhammad teaching’s that Muslims follow correct?

If so how could we have such a huge conflict here. Or is Bahai just someone who wrote about Muhammad not what Muhammad taught.

Please excuse me for my ingnorance here, I am really confused.

Please rinnie no need to excuse yourself at all!

Yes we are speaking of the same Muhammad…

I think you can ask any Muslim today that what Muhammad taught is inconceivable when compared to what Muslims “practice” today. I’m pretty confident that this mainly due to the lack of institutional authority and a lack of a covenant of successorship within Islam.

What the founder of the Bahai Faith, Baha’u’llah, has revealed is, not only a complete and pure religion in its own right but also removed the veils of human interpretation from previous Holy Scriptures to unveil the glory of Truth from within them.

So I don’t think there is a conflict at all. Incorrect human interpretations CREATE conflict. Correct interpretations of the Holy Texts create unity. The Father is one, and most certainly is not in conflict with Himself…human beings are many, and conflict comes quite easily.

The key is to eliminate human interpretation and focus on Gods Word.

I hope that makes sense?

 

[rinnie]

Please rinnie no need to excuse yourself at all!

Yes we are speaking of the same Muhammad…

I think you can ask any Muslim today that what Muhammad taught is inconceivable when compared to what Muslims “practice” today. I’m pretty confident that this mainly due to the lack of institutional authority and a lack of a covenant of successorship within Islam.

What the founder of the Bahai Faith, Baha’u’llah, has revealed is, not only a complete and pure religion in its own right but also removed the veils of human interpretation from previous Holy Scriptures to unveil the glory of Truth from within them.

So I don’t think there is a conflict at all. Incorrect human interpretations CREATE conflict. Correct interpretations of the Holy Texts create unity. The Father is one, and most certainly is not in conflict with Himself…human beings are many, and conflict comes quite easily.

The key is to eliminate human interpretation and focus on Gods Word.

I hope that makes sense?

Yes the Father is one. God is One. But he is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All one God in 3 persons of the Trinity.

Now the SON is the word made Flesh which is Jesus Christ. So are you trying to say Muhammad is Jesus? Because Muhammad never claimed this.

Muhammad claimed to be a prophet who heard the word of God. Not God.

Jesus was asked are you God. Jesus said I AM! Even the Jews who reject Christ in the Trinity will accept the truth of him claiming to be God,

Now you are taking a human interpretation are you not. Because where is the proof this Bahai is divine?

Jesus proved he was God by his death on the Cross and comming back again.

Not one word of what Jesus taught could be in contradiction with another. It does I agree take the Church to interpret scripture because it cannot be interpretated by humans. I totally agree with that.

But in order for you to interpret scripture yourself today even what the Bahai faith teaches you are interpretating it in a human understanding.

I can read it and interpret it anyway I choose do you not agree. We can both read it and see it 2 different ways.

Where and who has authority here on earth to define scripture for you?

 

[rinnie]

By the way and I am not proud to say this, and even less proud to be able to speak for myself. Even I cannot practice what I preach.

Jesus knew this. That is why he had to come down and pay for my sins.

That is why we have confession in the Church to have a Priest act in the person of Christ to forgive our sins and help pray for us to be able to live up to our baptisimal promises.

But we are Human not divine. Not they you have to be divine to live up to your faith. But its real hard.

In the eyes of God you don’t have to even sin to have sin, your thoughts which are human can cause sin. Are you saying your faith does not have sin?

 

[ffg]

Interesting thread.

If one must be pure / purified to be in Heaven, then a logical conclusion might be that it is impossible to see the face of God and continue to be alive as a sinner / human.

If we are made in God’s image though, lowering Himself to our nature and not standing out like an alien from space is obviously possible to God. This was accomplished with Jesus.

However, with God all things are possible and when Jesus chose to display his glory to a few, perhaps it was an exception (to nature / logic), or perhaps it was to an angelic level that human nature could take without immediately ending the human nature side of the person.

I think of the saints / stories of people, who upon their first communion ‘die’ as human essentially due to an extreme ecstasy, one can only imagine would be caused by immense amounts of grace for their very clear and sincere love for God and understanding of the sacrament.

 

[Servant19]

Yes the Father is one. God is One. But he is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All one God in 3 persons of the Trinity.

Now the SON is the word made Flesh which is Jesus Christ. So are you trying to say Muhammad is Jesus? Because Muhammad never claimed this.

Muhammad claimed to be a prophet who heard the word of God. Not God.

Jesus was asked are you God. Jesus said I AM! Even the Jews who reject Christ in the Trinity will accept the truth of him claiming to be God,

Now you are taking a human interpretation are you not. Because where is the proof this Bahai is divine?

Jesus proved he was God by his death on the Cross and comming back again.

Not one word of what Jesus taught could be in contradiction with another. It does I agree take the Church to interpret scripture because it cannot be interpretated by humans. I totally agree with that.

But in order for you to interpret scripture yourself today even what the Bahai faith teaches you are interpretating it in a human understanding.

I can read it and interpret it anyway I choose do you not agree. We can both read it and see it 2 different ways.

Where and who has authority here on earth to define scripture for you?

Yes, rinnie, I am saying in the DIVINE aspect Muhammad and Jesus are one, they are no different, even though God, speaking through Muhammad did not want to reveal Himself, since, as I said above, this would have added another “idol” to worship. Humans are limited by their senses and intellect, and sometimes cling to the “human identity” rather than the inner, “divine identity”. Muhammad’s human identity would simply have become another idol to worship, mission failed!!

Where do the Jews accept Jesus’ claim to be God? How do you know this?

In terms of how I know Baha’u’llah is Divine, the answer is simply because of His life, His suffering, the uniqueky transformative effect of His Word, and the fruits that His words produce. Miracles etc etc were aplenty, but these should never be considered proofs.

Now, in regards to interpretation, there are two kinds. One is personal interpretation, either through personal reflection or discussion with friends, which is NON-AUTHORITATIVE, and the other is AUTHORITATIVE. Did Jesus ever give AUTHORITATIVE interpretive rights to anyone after His death, and if so, how do you know that authority was passed on from generation to generation resulting in the authority being given to your priest to tell you what a piece of Scripture means?

 

[daler]

Good question. Answers anyone?

. It all goes back to whether or not one accepts the simple definition, by which I mean no offense, that “Jesus is God”.

. That has always troubled me in light of so much that He (Jesus) said:

. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”

. 'My Father is greater than I"

etc.

. Sometimes I think that when the idea that “Cesar is God” was debunked, people had a need to fill the void with another person. Like, “Well, if Cesar isn’t God, who is?”

. The idea that the Infinite God Creator of billions of galaxies can be incorporated, or incarnated into a human being who Himself says: “These aren’t My words” seems to be a stretch of the imagination and carried out for the sake of expediency. (No offense intended to however others hold their beliefs)

. I think we must not simplify God to make Him fit inside our own head so that we can view Him with our own eyeballs and say, “There He is!”

“No man hath seen God and lived”

 

[TheSufi]

Why is,A Muslim,using a Bible verse when they say the Bible is corrupted? Intellectually dishonest imo and an insult to intelligence. :tsktsk:

MJ

Because Christians already believe in the bible. Duh???