Muslim baptism?

[cathopologist]

I don’t expect scholars of Islam to be scholars of Christianity as well.

Well, its nice to know that you acknowledge this.

Just like you shouldn’t expect your Christian scholars to be scholars of Islam.

Actually we do have the Pontifical Institute for Arabic/Islamic Studies (P.I.S.A.I)

The P.I.S.A.I. awards a Licentiate in Arabic and Islamic Studies after three years of intensive studies during which the student’s presence at lectures is compulsory. The first two years of the Islamics programme is taught in English and in French, while the third year programme is presented in Arabic. It should be noted that all first-year students following the full programme in Arabic and Islamic studies go to Cairo, to Dar Comboni, where this part of the course is assured by the Comboni Fathers. After receiving the licentiate, those students wishing to deepen their knowledge through further study and research have the possibility of undertaking Doctorate Research. To meet increasing interest and demand, a one-year course entitled ‘Introduction to Islam’ and taught in Italian has been initiated.

 

[cathopologist]

Meedo isn’t talking about a baptismal rite. He is talking about a shower.

Muslims take showers quite regularly, in fact. One occasion of showering is after embracing Islam.

Muslims also shower after intercourse, after menstrual periods, at the end of post-natal bleeding, before holidays and at least once a week before going to the Friday prayer. It’s a shower, not a baptism.

So Muslims only discovered how to keep themselves clean when Islam was founded?

actually we have a ''sort ‘’ of babtism. when a non muslim enters islam he is instructed to wash ( sort fo like taking a shower) .

I think he is quite clear in his response.

 

[cathopologist]

The question is about as sensible as asking what church a Buddhist attends.

Maybe to you. The question is valid and i would like to know an honest reply from Muslims.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Do you get baptised every week in your church, catho?

Every time you’re dirty?

Every time you have intercourse with your wife?

Every time you want to pray?

Do you get baptised for all these things?

 

[cathopologist]

Do you get baptised every week in your church, catho?

A recipient of the Catholic Church is only baptized once.

Every time you’re dirty?

I shower when i’m dirty as did those in ancient times in Europe.

Every time you have intercourse with your wife?

That’s a bit personal, don’t you think? In any case, the answer would be of course.

Every time you want to pray?

Yes, i shower before my prayers.

Do you get baptised for all these things?

Showering or having a bath is about physical cleanliness. Getting baptized is about cleansing your soul and washing away whatever sins you have. Baptism gives life to our spirit as water cleanses the soul and all this is done in the presence of a community of believers who will witness our conversion. I do not take showers in the presence of others. Do you?

 

[Sister_Amy]

A recipient of the Catholic Church is only baptized once.

I shower when i’m dirty as did those in ancient times in Europe.

That’s a bit personal, don’t you think? In any case, the answer would be of course.

Yes, i shower before my prayers.

Showering or having a bath is about physical cleanliness. Getting baptized is about cleansing your soul and washing away whatever sins you have. Baptism gives life to our spirit as water cleanses the soul and all this is done in the presence of a community of believers who will witness our conversion. I do not take showers in the presence of others. Do you?

Let me clarify my questions by re-insterting the verb:

Do you get baptised every week in your church, catho?

Do you get baptised every time you’re dirty?

Do you get baptised every time you have intercourse with your wife?

Do you get baptised every time you want to pray?

Do you get baptised for all these things?

The answer quite obviously, to all of these questions, is NO! You get baptized once in a lifetime! And for the rest you take showers. Muslims take showers for these things. They aren’t baptized. The same shower a person takes after embraces Islam, he will also take every Friday, after intercourse with his wife, and so on. It’s a shower. Not a baptism.

Muslims believe that a person has body and soul, which are tied together. Cleansing the body cleanses the soul and vice versa. So Muslims try to stay in a constant state of physical cleanliness and spiritual cleanliness.

There is no baptism in Islam.

 

[cathopologist]

Muslims believe that a person has body and soul, which are tied together. Cleansing the body cleanses the soul and vice versa. So Muslims try to stay in a constant state of physical cleanliness and spiritual cleanliness.

There is no baptism in Islam.

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful. - Surah 5:6

Your replies are fine and dandy. But i would like to know what exactly Surahs from page 1 of this thread meant and how you would interpret them. If you say Muslims do not believe in baptism, why is the word used then? Why didn’t they use ‘shower’ or ‘bathe’ instead?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Your replies are fine and dandy. But i would like to know what exactly Surahs from page 1 of this thread meant and how you would interpret them. If you say Muslims do not believe in baptism, why is the word used then? Why didn’t they use ‘shower’ or ‘bathe’ instead?

I don’t interpret the Qur’an. I quoted two alternate translations at the beginning of the thread, maybe you can review them. The word doesn’t have anything to do with, as far as I can tell, baptism in the Christian sense. It’s talking about religion–not showering, bathing, or baptising… religion.

Secondly, about the ayah you just quoted above, once again it’s not about baptism, it’s about ablution. Bathing and showering, at least where I come from, are used interchangeably. Take a shower or bathe, same thing. Doesn’t mean baptism–and Muslims do it regularly. The word in Arabic is “ghusl.”

 

[cathopologist]

I don’t interpret the Qur’an. I quoted two alternate translations at the beginning of the thread, maybe you can review them. The word doesn’t have anything to do with, as far as I can tell, baptism in the Christian sense. It’s talking about religion–not showering, bathing, or baptising… religion.

Secondly, about the ayah you just quoted above, once again it’s not about baptism, it’s about ablution. Bathing and showering, at least where I come from, are used interchangeably. Take a shower or bathe, same thing. Doesn’t mean baptism–and Muslims do it regularly. The word in Arabic is “ghusl.”

I know what the ayas above meant. I posted them to show you i know the rituals of a Muslim before he enters a mosque. However, if the English translation of the Qur’an is flawless, it would have been as you said, “ghusl”, right? What is the direct translation of the word, ghusl into English?

Anyway, i found this on Wikipedia:

“I placed water near The Messenger of Allah to take a bath because of sexual intercourse. He washed the palms of his hands twice or thrice and then put his hand in the basin and poured water over his body then struck hand against the earth and rubbed it with force and then performed ablution for the prayer and then poured three handfuls of water on his head and then washed his whole body after which he moved aside from that place and washed his feet, and then I brought a towel (so that he may wipe his body), but he returned it.”

I am just curious about this one: Why does Islam focus so much into sex? I mean, it’s a no-brainer you have to clean yourself after sexual intercourse…but seriously, why the need to put washing instructions after sex in a holy book?

Similarly, Muhammad ibn Saalih al-Uthaymeen said, "Sufficient ghusl means that you rinse your mouth and nose, then you wash your entire body with water, even if that means plunging yourself into deep water in one go.

The lines in bold sounds alot like baptism - full immersion in water.

 

[Psalter]

Maybe I’m dense. Can you help me out?

Apparently! Since the Qur’an mentions “baptism”, many are curious if Islam practices a sort of baptism, hence the links.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I know what the ayas above meant. I posted them to show you i know the rituals of a Muslim before he enters a mosque. However, if the English translation of the Qur’an is flawless, it would have been as you said, “ghusl”, right? What is the direct translation of the word, ghusl into English?

Is that supposed to impress me? Hehehe. There are two things actually, there is “ghusl” and there is "wudu’ ". The first is the purification for major impurity–call it a “bath.” Hehe. The second is the purification for minor impurity–call it “ablution.”

Anyway, i found this on Wikipedia:

That was ghusl–the bath.

I am just curious about this one: Why does Islam focus so much into sex? I mean, it’s a no-brainer you have to clean yourself after sexual intercourse…but seriously, why the need to put washing instructions after sex in a holy book?
The lines in bold sounds alot like baptism - full immersion in water.

Islam does not focus so much on sex. Perhaps the question to ask is why YOU focus so much on sex. Or maybe why Amy does… poor Amy is single… maybe that’s why. What’s your excuse? LOL. Sorry.

It’s not a no-brainer to clean after sexual intercourse–maybe to you, but not to everyone. Because plenty of people don’t do it. But Islam is a religion of cleanliness, aye?

So I have a question for you–why not put washing instructions in a holy book? Seriously, why not? Washing instructions after going to the bathroom, after sex, after mensturation… why not put that in a holy book? Why not?

I didn’t know Catholics did full immersion baptism. Hmm.

I was baptized as a Christian–a traumatic experience that felt like drowning because the preacher wouldn’t let me up. Anyway.

If you think you’re getting baptized everytime you go swimming, everytime you take a bath… then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Apparently! Since the Qur’an mentions “baptism”, many are curious if Islam practices a sort of baptism, hence the links.

But Islam does not practice baptism. The links don’t suggest otherwise either. I don’t know why people insist on this, it really makes no sense.

 

[Psalter]

But Islam does not practice baptism. The links don’t suggest otherwise either. I don’t know why people insist on this, it really makes no sense.

Because that garbled, incoherent nonsense commonly confused with the sacred Scriptures–the Quran–mentions “baptism.” Duh!

 

[inJESUS]

According to Qatada, it is Allah’s baptismal of purification just like the Christians used to “dye” their children for purification so bapstism was at least on Qatada’s mind.

 

[inJESUS]

Btw, in Arabic baptisim is also called Al-Sibgha Al-Muqaddasa, that is, the sacred sibgha, dying with Christ and rising with Him…

 

[cathopologist]

Is that supposed to impress me? Hehehe. There are two things actually, there is “ghusl” and there is "wudu’ ". The first is the purification for major impurity–call it a “bath.” Hehe. The second is the purification for minor impurity–call it “ablution.”

That was ghusl–the bath.

I don’t debate to impress others. I debate to gain knowledge.
Ok, so its called a bath. Why does the English translation of the Qur’an say “baptism” instead of using the word “bath”? Remember, we are talking about non-corrupted word of Allah.

YUSUFALI: (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah: And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.
PICKTHAL: (We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. We are His worshippers.
SHAKIR: (Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising? and Him do we serve. - Qur’an 2:138

Islam does not focus so much on sex. Perhaps the question to ask is why YOU focus so much on sex. Or maybe why Amy does… poor Amy is single… maybe that’s why. What’s your excuse? LOL. Sorry.

It’s not a no-brainer to clean after sexual intercourse–maybe to you, but not to everyone. Because plenty of people don’t do it. But Islam is a religion of cleanliness, aye?

Don’t be so quick to shoot the messenger. The Qur’an has many surahs on the subject of sex. You make me sound as though i want to seek sex in a supposed holy book. A holy book to me does not have to go into explicit details about sex.
You also make it sound as though ancient Arabs did not know anything about cleanliness until Islam came along. There were Jews and Christians living there (and they obviously know something about cleanliness) before the arrival of Mohammad. A religion should focus more on God - not teach people how to clean up before and after sex or why a man can marry various wives. Why? So he can clean himself 4x4 times?

So I have a question for you–why not put washing instructions in a holy book? Seriously, why not? Washing instructions after going to the bathroom, after sex, after mensturation… why not put that in a holy book? Why not?

See reply above. Also, i do not see the corelation between washing instructions and praying instructions. It does not mean if you’re dirty, you won’t be loved by God.

I didn’t know Catholics did full immersion baptism. Hmm.

There alot of things you don’t know about Catholicism. What you know is what you learnt as a Protestant. Now that you’re a Muslim, it will be even harder for you to understand Catholicism.

I was baptized as a Christian–a traumatic experience that felt like drowning because the preacher wouldn’t let me up. Anyway.

My 2 ½ year old son had a full immersion baptism and he enjoyed it. There were several other infants and toddlers on that day. Many parents chose full immersion for their toddlers. None of them cried or felt traumatized. Anyway…

If you think you’re getting baptized everytime you go swimming, everytime you take a bath… then I don’t know what to tell you.

I said no such thing. Looks like you need reading glasses.

 

[inJESUS]

I don’t debate to impress others. I debate to gain knowledge.
Ok, so its called a bath. Why does the English translation of the Qur’an say “baptism” instead of using the word “bath”? :

because that’s what it means…if you even read the Jahiliyya pre-Islamic poetry, you will read about poets using the same word while talking about Christians.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I don’t debate to impress others. I debate to gain knowledge.
Ok, so its called a bath. Why does the English translation of the Qur’an say “baptism” instead of using the word “bath”? Remember, we are talking about non-corrupted word of Allah.

Don’t be so quick to shoot the messenger. The Qur’an has many surahs on the subject of sex. You make me sound as though i want to seek sex in a supposed holy book. A holy book to me does not have to go into explicit details about sex.
You also make it sound as though ancient Arabs did not know anything about cleanliness until Islam came along. There were Jews and Christians living there (and they obviously know something about cleanliness) before the arrival of Mohammad. A religion should focus more on God - not teach people how to clean up before and after sex or why a man can marry various wives. Why? So he can clean himself 4x4 times?

See reply above. Also, i do not see the corelation between washing instructions and praying instructions. It does not mean if you’re dirty, you won’t be loved by God.

There alot of things you don’t know about Catholicism. What you know is what you learnt as a Protestant. Now that you’re a Muslim, it will be even harder for you to understand Catholicism.

My 2 ½ year old son had a full immersion baptism and he enjoyed it. There were several other infants and toddlers on that day. Many parents chose full immersion for their toddlers. None of them cried or felt traumatized. Anyway…

I said no such thing. Looks like you need reading glasses.

There’s not really anything in this post worth responding to.

I just want you to know that I really take offense at your patently untrue assertion that the Qur’an has many chapters “on the subject of sex.” Moreover, it does not “go into explicit details abotu sex.”

You also failed to provide any reason whatsoever that a holy text should not provide guidance for human beings, even about cleanliness.

 

[cathopologist]

There’s not really anything in this post worth responding to.

That’s because you are unable to debunk what i have written.

I just want you to know that I really take offense at your patently untrue assertion that the Qur’an has many chapters “on the subject of sex.” Moreover, it does not “go into explicit details abotu sex.”

Please stop playing the ‘victim game’? I would love to post ayas that mention sex but i would rather refrain from doing so. I also know where you are going with this, Amy. The sudden announcement in Sam_777’s thread (and you know which one) lead me to believe you are the main complainant of threads that refutes Islamic fallacies. Pathetic.

You also failed to provide any reason whatsoever that a holy text should not provide guidance for human beings, even about cleanliness.

Previous revelations from other holy texts have already mentioned about cleanliness. Its adherents as i mentioned above, already know the drill. There is no reason why Islam has to focus on after/before-sex cleanliness. Besides, its common sense. If the ancients knew how to clean themselves after doing their ‘business’, what makes you think they don’t have the initiative to clean up after and before sex? You’re really undermining the ancients of Arabia.

You have also failed to provide a reasonable explanation as to why the surahs use the word ‘baptism’ instead of ‘bath’. If you cannot provide an explanation, at least say so.

 

[Sister_Amy]

That’s because you are unable to debunk what i have written.

Believe that if you like.

Please stop playing the ‘victim game’? I would love to post ayas that mention sex but i would rather refrain from doing so. I also know where you are going with this, Amy. The sudden announcement in Sam_777’s thread (and you know which one) lead me to believe you are the main complainant of threads that refutes Islamic fallacies. Pathetic.

I am playing the victim? That’s new. Aren’t you the one who likes to dredge up examples of how Muslims have transgressed against you somehow?

Go ahead and post these ayahs which are all about sex. Or, if you prefer, just tell me which CHAPTERS you think are all about sex, since that’s what you claimed anyway. And I’ll tell you where I’m going with it–I think you’re full of hot air, making wild accusations that aren’t even founded in reality.

Previous revelations from other holy texts have already mentioned about cleanliness. Its adherents as i mentioned above, already know the drill. There is no reason why Islam has to focus on after/before-sex cleanliness. Besides, its common sense. If the ancients knew how to clean themselves after doing their ‘business’, what makes you think they don’t have the initiative to clean up after and before sex? You’re really undermining the ancients of Arabia.

First of all, if other holy texts mention cleanliness, then you should have no problem whatsoever that the Qur’an mentions it. Jewish women have to take a bath (and it is a bath, not a baptism) in a special pool after they finish menstruating. Did you know that? I learned that from some Jewish women at an inter-faith retreat. If people just “knew” how to clean themselves, like you say… why would Jewish women be prescribed to do that? Hm.

Oh but your question was why does the Qur’an “focus” (your word) on after-sex cleanliness? Answer: it doesn’t focus on it. It mentions it. Why does that bother you, seriously?

You have also failed to provide a reasonable explanation as to why the surahs use the word ‘baptism’ instead of ‘bath’. If you cannot provide an explanation, at least say so.

The surahs don’t use the word baptism. Because that’s an english word, and the Qur’an was in Arabic. What you want to know is why the translators picked that word–and not ALL translators did.

I don’t presume to know why Allah Almighty chose the word He did, I don’t presume to encompass its meaning, nor do I presume to know why some translators opted to interpret it as baptism.

What I will tell you though is that the ayah in no way whatsoever discusses baptism or tells Muslims to baptize themselves or any other silly nonsense you might wish to imply. A word in passing, I don’t see it as much more than that, right now.