Muslim baptism?

[cathopologist]

I am playing the victim? That’s new. Aren’t you the one who likes to dredge up examples of how Muslims have transgressed against you somehow?

Wow, you really have no idea what you are saying. Amy, why are you so desperate on trying to paint an ugly picture of me when i actually disagree with Islamic doctrines, not Muslims as a people?

Go ahead and post these ayahs which are all about sex. Or, if you prefer, just tell me which CHAPTERS you think are all about sex, since that’s what you claimed anyway. And I’ll tell you where I’m going with it–I think you’re full of hot air, making wild accusations that aren’t even founded in reality.

I must apologize for my eagerness to understand Islam’s obsession on the subject of sex and why it greatly emphasizes its adherents to follow ritualistic practices before and after sex.

What i meant are the Hadiths, not the ayas - although the ayas and the narrations of the Hadiths very often are cross-referenced. Amy, you need to try harder if its your intention to get me on your list of potential nemesis’ to be banned. Contrary to your accusations, i am actually quite a calm person.

First of all, if other holy texts mention cleanliness, then you should have no problem whatsoever that the Qur’an mentions it. Jewish women have to take a bath (and it is a bath, not a baptism) in a special pool after they finish menstruating. Did you know that? I learned that from some Jewish women at an inter-faith retreat. If people just “knew” how to clean themselves, like you say… why would Jewish women be prescribed to do that? Hm.

Yes, i am aware of the Jewish mikveh after menstruation. Christians are already aware of the Old Testament rituals on cleanliness. Islam claims to have its roots in Judaic customs and rites, yet reinvents and introduces even more rituals than whats already been known.

Oh but your question was why does the Qur’an “focus” (your word) on after-sex cleanliness? Answer: it doesn’t focus on it. It mentions it. Why does that bother you, seriously?

I guess i find holy texts that focuses too much on sexual cleanliness a waste of ink and paper. Too little emphasis on God but more on the subject of sex will worry anyone who may be seriously considering Islam. I say this because i have heard non-Muslims asking my Muslim friends such questions. Truth is, i feel bad for them sometimes. I am protective of my Muslim friends if you must know.

The surahs don’t use the word baptism. Because that’s an english word, and the Qur’an was in Arabic. What you want to know is why the translators picked that word–and not ALL translators did.

So then you admit the modern translations of the Qur’an in English are of poor standards?

I don’t presume to know why Allah Almighty chose the word He did, I don’t presume to encompass its meaning, nor do I presume to know why some translators opted to interpret it as baptism.

See, i have been listening to Islam’s claim on the flowery, poetic narrations of the Qur’an all my life, yet they fail to realize that many of its translations into the English language is actually of inferior quality. Perhaps this is the reason why the Mullahs of Islam demand its adherents to study Arabic? Gosh i am trying to help you here.

What I will tell you though is that the ayah in no way whatsoever discusses baptism or tells Muslims to baptize themselves or any other silly nonsense you might wish to imply. A word in passing, I don’t see it as much more than that, right now.

No question is silly unless you do not have the right answers to refute difficult-to-answer questions. You need to calm yourself down and not be paranoid around non-Muslims who actually wish to learn more about your faith.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I must apologize for my eagerness to understand Islam’s obsession on the subject of sex and why it greatly emphasizes its adherents to follow ritualistic practices before and after sex.

What i meant are the Hadiths, not the ayas - although the ayas and the narrations of the Hadiths very often are cross-referenced. Amy, you need to try harder if its your intention to get me on your list of potential nemesis’ to be banned. Contrary to your accusations, i am actually quite a calm person.

Good grief!

First you say that there are CHAPTERS of the Qur’an that are all about sex…

And then you say it’s not chapters but just VERSES…

And now you admit that there aren’t chapters or even verses of the Qur’an that are all about sex. That means you made an unfair claim about Islam, and about Islam’s holy book. A completely fabricated claim.

Now you say it’s just hadiths. A hadith is just something Muhammad said. If he ever said something about sex…

Good grief. Did you think that I wouldn’t call you on it?

I guess i find holy texts that focuses too much on sexual cleanliness a waste of ink and paper. Too little emphasis on God but more on the subject of sex will worry anyone who may be seriously considering Islam. I say this because i have heard non-Muslims asking my Muslim friends such questions. Truth is, i feel bad for them sometimes. I am protective of my Muslim friends if you must know.

You did it again!!! You did it again, man. You’re back to saying that holy texts focus too much on sex. Knock it off, you’re not fooling anyone here. Does the Qur’an talk more about sex, or more about God?

Because YOU say there’s “too little emphasis on God but more on the subject of sex.” That was your claim. I quote.

If you open up the Qur’an you will see God mentioned on every single page. Every single page. The Qur’an is ABOUT God.

And you think it’s about sex. I think you haven’t read it, or else you wouldn’t make such an extraordinary claim. How often does “sex” come up in the Qur’an. I challenge you to find more than a handful of instances. While scarcely a few verses can go by without something being emphasized about God.

So then you admit the modern translations of the Qur’an in English are of poor standards?

I think you happened to pick three of the worst translations out there. As if I’m supposed to be impressed you can quote 3 translations at once. If you visit “searchquran.net” you’ll notice they have even more translations, including the two I prefer: Muhsin Khan, and Saheeh International. You’ll note neither use the word baptism.

See, i have been listening to Islam’s claim on the flowery, poetic narrations of the Qur’an all my life, yet they fail to realize that many of its translations into the English language is actually of inferior quality. Perhaps this is the reason why the Mullahs of Islam demand its adherents to study Arabic? Gosh i am trying to help you here.

Help me with what?

No question is silly unless you do not have the right answers to refute difficult-to-answer questions. You need to calm yourself down and not be paranoid around non-Muslims who actually wish to learn more about your faith.

Should I believe a user with the name “cathopologist” actually wants to learn more about my faith? Come on. You’ve not tried to learn anything about Islam–merely expressed your dissatisfaction with it.

 

[cathopologist]

Good grief!

First you say that there are CHAPTERS of the Qur’an that are all about sex…

And then you say it’s not chapters but just VERSES…

And now you admit that there aren’t chapters or even verses of the Qur’an that are all about sex. That means you made an unfair claim about Islam, and about Islam’s holy book. A completely fabricated claim.

Now you say it’s just hadiths. A hadith is just something Muhammad said. If he ever said something about sex…

Good grief. Did you think that I wouldn’t call you on it?

You make alot of calls lately. Especially on those who disagree with your thinking. Every religion is subject to criticism. Islam is no exception. Besides, i have already mentioned about cross-references between the Qur’an and the Hadiths.

You did it again!!! You did it again, man. You’re back to saying that holy texts focus too much on sex. Knock it off, you’re not fooling anyone here. Does the Qur’an talk more about sex, or more about God?

Because YOU say there’s “too little emphasis on God but more on the subject of sex.” That was your claim. I quote.

Yes and when you disagree you blow hot air? Who’s the one with an ugly temperament here? I’m not trying to fool you or anyone. People have and do read the Qur’an you know. But somehow whenever a non-Muslim questions the contents of its texts, its always disparaging to a Muslim.

If you open up the Qur’an you will see God mentioned on every single page. Every single page. The Qur’an is ABOUT God.

I didn’t say it does not mention God. Now you’re putting words into my mouth. I said there is very little emphasis on the mysteries of God and His unlimited power.

And you think it’s about sex. I think you haven’t read it, or else you wouldn’t make such an extraordinary claim. How often does “sex” come up in the Qur’an. I challenge you to find more than a handful of instances. While scarcely a few verses can go by without something being emphasized about God.

Of course if you specifically search for the word “sex”, it wouldn’t always point to the word, but there are several references to sex. You want me to dissect the entire Qur’an to show you where it makes references to sex? Come on, you’ve read the Bible and i know even you know there are references to sex in say the Song of Solomon for example. I would hate to think of you as someone dense and always in denial.

I think you happened to pick three of the worst translations out there. As if I’m supposed to be impressed you can quote 3 translations at once. If you visit “searchquran.net” you’ll notice they have even more translations, including the two I prefer: Muhsin Khan, and Saheeh International. You’ll note neither use the word baptism.

Why do you think i’m trying to impress you, Amy? This is for me and me only. If the bad translations are apparent, why do respectable Muslim sites and copies of the Qur’an in print still use “baptism” instead of “bath”?

Should I believe a user with the name “cathopologist” actually wants to learn more about my faith? Come on. You’ve not tried to learn anything about Islam–merely expressed your dissatisfaction with it.

Why not? Are you going to deny a Catholic apologist from learning more about Islam from another Muslim’s perspective? Don’t think i have never learned anything about Islam. You always seem to think i only have bad impressions of Islam and its adherents. You could not be more wrong. You need to stop making assumptions and discuss in a more civil manner.

 

[inJESUS]

Did anyone read what i wrote? the word is translated as baptism becuse it was used by Christians before Muhammad and in the pre-Islamic era refering to Christian baptism and Qatada is an example…Muhammad did not drop from nowhere and the context of the aya has nothing to do with physical cleanliness.

The quran has it’s share but it is the Islamic literature that’s full of sexual material about Muhammad’s sexuality or sex in general, Cath.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You make alot of calls lately. Especially on those who disagree with your thinking. Every religion is subject to criticism. Islam is no exception. Besides, i have already mentioned about cross-references between the Qur’an and the Hadiths.

Totally unrelated.

Yes and when you disagree you blow hot air? Who’s the one with an ugly temperament here? I’m not trying to fool you or anyone. People have and do read the Qur’an you know. But somehow whenever a non-Muslim questions the contents of its texts, its always disparaging to a Muslim.

I read the Qur’an, and I read the Qur’an. (past and present tense.) If you were questioning something valid, that’d be one thing. YOU’RE NOT. You made a silly assertion and I called you on it.

I didn’t say it does not mention God. Now you’re putting words into my mouth. I said there is very little emphasis on the mysteries of God and His unlimited power.

I didn’t put words in your mouth. I quoted you. Exactly. And let me repeat that the Qur’an is ABOUT God. The whole book emphasizes God’s unlimited power. Please, read it.

Of course if you specifically search for the word “sex”, it wouldn’t always point to the word, but there are several references to sex. You want me to dissect the entire Qur’an to show you where it makes references to sex? Come on, you’ve read the Bible and i know even you know there are references to sex in say the Song of Solomon for example. I would hate to think of you as someone dense and always in denial.

First of all, I wasn’t talking about specific instances of the word sex but general references. My point however is that the Qur’an spends most of its words not talking about sex or anything related, but really talking about God, attributes of God, the Day of Judgment, etc. So there is much more emphasis on God. On His Power, Wisdom, Mercy, and so on. Hardly any mentions of sex. And I’ll again encourage you to read the text and see for yourself.

Moreover, Song of Solomon doesn’t bother me. You’re the one who was complaining about the Qur’an being about sex. It’s not.

Why do you think i’m trying to impress you, Amy? This is for me and me only. If the bad translations are apparent, why do respectable Muslim sites and copies of the Qur’an in print still use “baptism” instead of “bath”?

I don’t accuse respectable Muslim sites of being fluent in the English language. Many of my own peers have grown up with particular translations, which they favor, and because they are so familiar with them they don’t see the flaws. But my Arabic teacher and my Qur’an teacher recommended the Saheeh Int’l version and the Muhsin Khan version. So that’s what I’ll recommend to you.

Why not? Are you going to deny a Catholic apologist from learning more about Islam from another Muslim’s perspective? Don’t think i have never learned anything about Islam. You always seem to think i only have bad impressions of Islam and its adherents. You could not be more wrong. You need to stop making assumptions and discuss in a more civil manner.

Maybe. I could probably be more civil if I were trying harder. But I really don’t believe you want to learn a thing about Islam. And I encourage you to prove me wrong.

 

[cathopologist]

Thank you InJESUS.

Since Arabic is the preferred language of the Qur’an, i think it is better off that way, since its translations into English have been rather inferior as they cannot find proper supplements for certain words such as “bath” in the English language. Pickthall the Muslim Englishman would have been better off not translating the Qur’an into English - it only creates more confusion for the non-Arabic reader.

Sister Amy, its clear that no matter what, you will never acknowledge the existence of sexual imagery in the holy texts of Islam. Perhaps a reading from this link will explain why some non-Muslims feel that it does: Sex in Islam

And before you jump to another conclusion about my sincerity, i suggest you judge your own true intentions of being in a Catholic forum and claiming you have respect for our religion.

 

[inJESUS]

Those who translated it as “colour” are doing a literal translation, as to the word “religion” it has a clear word in Arabic and Quran, yet the word sibgha in religious context is totally Christian, as-sibgha al muqadassa (sacred baptism) , known before muhammad, even mentionned in the Jahiliyya poetry about Christianity.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy, its clear that no matter what, you will never acknowledge the existence of sexual imagery in the holy texts of Islam. Perhaps a reading from this link will explain why some non-Muslims feel that it does: Sex in Islam

Two things. First of all, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove “sexual imagery” is there. You’ve not even tried. In fact, you’ve backed further and further away the more I pressed you. Chapters, you said. I pressed, and you recanted. Verses, you said. So I pressed and again you recanted. Hadiths, you said. And now I’m just too amused to take you seriously.

And before you jump to another conclusion about my sincerity, i suggest you judge **your own true intentions **of being in a Catholic forum and claiming you have respect for our religion.

I know why I’m here. Do you know why I’m here?

 

[cathopologist]

Two things. First of all, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove “sexual imagery” is there. You’ve not even tried. In fact, you’ve backed further and further away the more I pressed you. Chapters, you said. I pressed, and you recanted. Verses, you said. So I pressed and again you recanted. Hadiths, you said. And now I’m just too amused to take you seriously.

**They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness. - Al-Baqara 2:222

Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad). - Al-Baqara 2:223

Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart’s) desires; Gardens enclosed, and grapevines; And voluptuous women of equal age; - An-Naba 78:31-33

But the sincere (and devoted) Servants of Allah,- For them is a Sustenance determined, Fruits (Delights); and they (shall enjoy) honour and dignity, In Gardens of Felicity, Facing each other on Thrones (of Dignity): Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain, Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof), Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom. And besides them will be chaste women, restraining their glances, with big eyes (of wonder and beauty). - As-Saaffat 37:40-48

As to the Righteous (they will be) in a position of Security, Among Gardens and Springs; Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade, they will face each other; So; and We shall join them to fair women with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes. - Ad-Dukhan 44:51-54

As to the Righteous, they will be in Gardens, and in Happiness,- Enjoying the (Bliss) which their Lord hath bestowed on them, and their Lord shall deliver them from the Penalty of the Fire. (To them will be said “Eat and drink ye, with profit and health, because of your (good) deeds.” They will recline (with ease) on Thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks; and We shall join them to Companions, with beautiful big and lustrous eyes. - At-Tur 52:17-20

In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?- Like unto Rubies and coral. Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? - Ar-Rahman 55:56-59

Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. They will advance to each other, engaging in mutual enquiry. - At-Tur 52:24-25

And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. And when thou lookest, it is there thou wilt see a Bliss and a Realm Magnificent. Upon them will be green Garments of fine silk and heavy brocade, and they will be adorned with Bracelets of silver; and their Lord will give to them to drink of a Wine Pure and Holy. “Verily this is a Reward for you, and your Endeavour is accepted and recognised.” - Al-Insan 76:19-22

We have created (their Companions) of special creation. And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), - Beloved (by nature), equal in age,- For the Companions of the Right Hand. - Al-Waqia 56:35-38

Successful indeed are the believers, Who are humble in their prayers, And who shun vain conversation, And who are payers of the poor-due; And who guard their modesty - Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy, - Al-Mumenoon 23:1-6

O ye wives of the Prophet! Ye are not like any other women. If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire (to you), but utter customary speech. - Al-Azhab 33:32

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. - Al-Azhab 33:36**

Cont’d

 

[cathopologist]

Cont’d from previous post

**Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: “Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah.” But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah’s command must be fulfilled. - Al-Azhab 33:37

O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. - Al-Azhab 33:50

It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things. - Al-Azhab 33:52

O ye who believe! Enter not the Prophet’s houses,- until leave is given you,- for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk. Such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet: he is ashamed to dismiss you, but Allah is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah’s Messenger, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in Allah’s sight an enormity.- Al-Azhab 33:53

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. - Al-Azhab 33:59

Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage,- there is no blame on them if they lay aside their (outer) garments, provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty: but it is best for them to be modest: and Allah is One Who sees and knows all things. - Al-Noor 24:60

And those who preserve their chastity, Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed, - Al-Maarij 70:29**

Those are just *some *of the sexual imagery of the Qur’an. Let us also not forget what medieval Muslim scholars, judges and poets wrote about sexuality and Islam. Did you think nobody archives such priceless pieces of literature? Muslims today can deny as much as they want, but the truth is there. Look up Wallada of Al-Andalus, the woman poet of Islam and her frolicking ways with both sexes, or how Caliph al-Hakim II spent his past-time with young boys or what the Muslim philosopher Al-Jahiz wrote on passionate love with girls and boys and how he later became engaged in them. Seriously, this isn’t the first time i have read such Muslim literature and neither have the more well-informed ones. I never avoided the subject, i was instead wanting to give you the face needed. Now, if you want further proof (cause i know you are in denial), i suggest you read up on the names i mentioned and read their works.

I know why I’m here. Do you know why I’m here?

Sure, You’re here for Da’wah’s sake. Everybody knows that already.
**
When it is said to them: “Make not mischief on the earth,” they say: “Why, we only Want to make peace!” Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not. - Al-Baqara 2:11-12

The above quote from the Qur’an says alot about the ‘Religion of Peace’. Ironic, isn’t it?**

 

[cathopologist]

Now, Sister Amy, please give me the reason why the Qur’an translates “bath” into “baptism”. If you cannot provide the reason, SAY SO. STOP WASTING MY TIME WITH ALL YOUR EXCUSES.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Those are just *some *of the sexual imagery of the Qur’an.

Cute.

Let us also not forget what medieval Muslim scholars, judges and poets wrote about sexuality and Islam. Did you think nobody archives such priceless pieces of literature?

I’m not familiar with any “medieval” Muslim literature. Sorry.

Muslims today can deny as much as they want, but the truth is there.

What truth is that, exactly?

Sure, You’re here for Da’wah’s sake. Everybody knows that already.
**
When it is said to them: “Make not mischief on the earth**,” they say: “Why, we only Want to make peace!” Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not. - Al-Baqara 2:11-12

The above quote from the Qur’an says alot about the ‘Religion of Peace’. Ironic, isn’t it?

That is so hilarious. You really have no idea what you’re talking about.

And one of my favorite verses too. I love when you quote Qur’an. It makes me sooo inexplicably happy.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Now, Sister Amy, please give me the reason why the Qur’an translates “bath” into “baptism”. If you cannot provide the reason, SAY SO. STOP WASTING MY TIME WITH ALL YOUR EXCUSES.

Wasting your time? Good grief, stop wasting mine.

The Qur’an doesn’t translate anything. (active) The Qur’an is translated. (passive)

So your question doesn’t make any sense phrased as it is.

Secondly, the translators of the Qur’an are the ones responsible for selecting the word. Not I.

Thirdly, I am hardly an expert in the Arabic language.

I neither know the reason, nor am I even concerned with the reason, and I have no idea why you keep asking me, when inJESUS has offered you an answer at least twice already in this very thread.

 

[cathopologist]

Cute.

So you still doubt those verses are from the Qur’an?

I’m not familiar with any “medieval” Muslim literature. Sorry.

As i expected, so very typical. Don’t you know that in order to know your religion, you have to look to the past?

What truth is that, exactly?

The truth about Islam.

That is so hilarious. You really have no idea what you’re talking about.

And one of my favorite verses too. I love when you quote Qur’an. It makes me sooo inexplicably happy.

Which other religion than your own claims to be a ‘religion of peace’, yet makes mischief all over the world?

 

[cathopologist]

Wasting your time? Good grief, stop wasting mine.

The Qur’an doesn’t translate anything. (active) The Qur’an is translated. (passive)

So your question doesn’t make any sense phrased as it is.

You see Amy, the reason why i brought this question/thread up is because i knew Islam was trying to redefine Christian baptism into something else; incorporating the practices and belief of heretic sects and because it overwhemingly points to a fact that Islam borrowed gnostic beliefs of the past, namely the Johanites, Mandaeans and Sabians.
[

**The Sabaites, the “Dyers” or “Baptists,” were the faithful adherents of John. They may have fallen into error and superstition; but they knew perfectly well that it was not Jesus who was intended in the prophecy of their Prophet. **

They embraced Islam when Prophet Muhammad came.The people of Harran in Syria are not - as they have been supposed to be - the remnant of the old Saba’ites. In the promised lands only three non-Muslim religions were recognized and tolerated by the Qur’an, namely, Judaism, Christianity, and Sabianism…](http://www.muhammad.net/other-scriptures-mainmenu-43/89.html?task=view)

*St. John the Baptist ascribes this spiritual and igneous marking to the Great Prophet of Allah, not as a divine being, God, or son of God, but as a holy agent, and as an instrument through which this divine marking was to be operated. Prophet Muhammad delivered the Message of Allah which was His Word; he led the prayers, administered the Divine service, and fought the holy wars against the unbelievers and the idolators to defend his cause. But the success and the victory achieved was God’s. In the same way *John preached and baptized, but the contrition, penance, and the remission of sins could only be done by God. The Prophet John’s prediction that “he who comes after me is more powerful than I; he will baptize (mark) you with the Spirit and with fire” is quite intelligible, because only through Prophet Muhammad this spiritual marking was given and performed. - **The “Sibghatullah,”**or The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit And With Fire - Quote from muhammad.net

Secondly, the translators of the Qur’an are the ones responsible for selecting the word. Not I.

Thirdly, I am hardly an expert in the Arabic language.

Exactly. Mohammad’s scribes added rituals which other heretical sects were using, but modified it to suit Islamic thinking. The translators perhaps chose the correct word - but did so in a very deceptive way. I’d expect you to be more knowledgeable since you flaunt about your intelligence here like nobody’s business.

I neither know the reason, nor am I even concerned with the reason, and I have no idea why you keep asking me, when inJESUS has offered you an answer at least twice already in this very thread.

I know what InJESUS said. I wanted YOUR (name removed by moderator)ut and since you could not provide any, i thought i’d do the honour for you. I guess after 4 threads of pushing you to provide an answer has taken its toll and made me impatient. And why wouldn’t you want to know anything about your religion’s past or how it came to be? This is not expected of an intelligent convert.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So you still doubt those verses are from the Qur’an?

Doubt them? Never. I love them. Truly.

As i expected, so very typical. Don’t you know that in order to know your religion, you have to look to the past?

Hm. Look to the past. Yes, I look to the past. I look to history–the life of Muhammad, of his companions, of their successors, and scholars. But literature and history are not synonymous. More importantly, Islam is not derived, in creed or law, from “literature” produced by Muslims or non-Muslims regardless of the subject matter. So studying medieval literature would not teach me my religion.

The truth about Islam.

I know the truth about Islam. What seems so sinister to you?

Which other religion than your own claims to be a ‘religion of peace’, yet makes mischief all over the world?

Do you really want me to answer that question?

 

[Sister_Amy]

You see Amy, the reason why i brought this question/thread up is because i knew Islam was trying to redefine Christian baptism into something else; incorporating the practices and belief of heretic sects and because it overwhemingly points to a fact that Islam borrowed gnostic beliefs of the past, namely the Johanites, Mandaeans and Sabians.
%between%
Exactly. Mohammad’s scribes added rituals which other heretical sects were using, but modified it to suit Islamic thinking. The translators perhaps chose the correct word - but did so in a very deceptive way. I’d expect you to be more knowledgeable since you flaunt about your intelligence here like nobody’s business.

I know what InJESUS said. I wanted YOUR (name removed by moderator)ut and since you could not provide any, i thought i’d do the honour for you. I guess after 4 threads of pushing you to provide an answer has taken its toll and made me impatient. And why wouldn’t you want to know anything about your religion’s past or how it came to be? This is not expected of an intelligent convert.

Maybe I’m a stupid convert. You never know…

Do you take your religion from the works of Dante, or Milton? I wouldn’t, but that’s just me.

 

[cathopologist]

Doubt them? Never. I love them. Truly.

Naturally, you would. Some women are attracted to the bad boy image.

But literature and history are not synonymous.

In this case, it is, because it was the Qur’an that inspired them to add colourful depictions of sex in their works and influenced their lifestyle.

I know the truth about Islam. What seems so sinister to you?

I do not find Islam by itself sinister. I find the Da’wah aspects of it highly deceptive.

Do you really want me to answer that question?

Let me guess, Christianity?

 

[cathopologist]

Maybe I’m a stupid convert. You never know…

I wouldn’t call you stupid. Nobody’s stupid in my book. But people can act stupid for reasons only known to them.

Do you take your religion from the works of Dante, or Milton? I wouldn’t, but that’s just me.

No i don’t. And i wasn’t implying anything of that sort either. Come on, try harder.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I wouldn’t call you stupid. Nobody’s stupid in my book. But people can act stupid for reasons only known to them.

No i don’t. And i wasn’t implying anything of that sort either. Come on, try harder.

That is exactly the same as what you were implying.