Muslim converts to Christianity

[Angelos]

Salaam/peace

I read Bible long ago . I remember Jesus (p) cursed a tree because there was no fruit for him .

In an area , people were surprised because Jesus (p) could not do there anything .

This is a very foolish conclusion, sorry to say, for there is nothing in that narrative even to imply that Jesus cursed the fig tree because He could not perform any miracle. By cursing the fig tree, Jesus DID something: taught a lesson.

More to the point, the fig tree withered when cursed by Jesus. How can you present this as an insignificant and usual incident?

Jesus (p) also said something like that I can not do anything of my own . He also said :

My Father is greater than I & “My father is greater than all.”

I fail to understand what this statement has to do with Jesus’ miracles?? Jesus said "The Father is greater than I " only to explain why He was supposed to go to the Father. The word “great” in Jesus’ comparison is not about quality/substance/nature, but about rank/position.

It is only holy book in the earth that is in its original form .
We read the same Quran that was recited by the last messenger of God.

The false presumption that the Koran was preserved by no means indicates the Islamic scripture’s so-called miraculous nature. According to the Koran, the supposed preservation of the Koran text is nothing miraculous. God allegedly promises to preserve to Koran not to turn it into a miracle, but only to prove that He is the one revealing it. Thus, preservation is a natual result of revelation:

Surah 15:9
Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.

Besides, the Koran asks Muslims to consider ALL the revelations equal:

Surah 3:84
Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

Consequently, if you believe that the Koran is miraculous and it was preserved, your scripture stipulates that Muslims believe the same about the former revelations.

Quran has more than 6 thousands verses . it’s a miracle that even non Arabs can memorised the whole Quran even without understanding the language .

I read that not even any single Pope ever memorised holy Bible .

Do you know how many verses the Bible has?

The supposition that early Muslims memorised the Koran for its sound transmission is a fallacious one since we know that most of those Muslims were not good at reciting the same story accurately and their short memory caused variations in the same narrative.

My friendly advice to you: do some reasearch on the various manuscripts and translations of the Bible and check how early Christians quoted from the Bible while writing any piece of religious literature.

 

[KenEOTE]

I read that not even any single Pope ever memorised holy Bible .

Actually I know a few men and woman who have memorized the whole Bible word for word. You can can say what does Jeremiah 5:4 say and they can tell you. The fault of not being memorized is not in the Bible but the person who reads it.

I also know many who have memorized the works of Shakespeare word for word. So then I guess Shakespearean work must be holy as well.

Being able to memories something does not prove it is holy.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Salaam/peace

I read Bible long ago . I remember Jesus (p) cursed a tree because there was no fruit for him .

Yes, and it immediately withered.

In an area , people were surprised because Jesus (p) could not do there anything .

He was surprised at their lack of faith, it says, and therefore He did few miracles.

Jesus (p) also said something like that I can not do anything of my own . He also said :

The Son never acts without the Father, or the Spirit.

My Father is greater than I & “My father is greater than all.”

The monarchy of the Father. The all didn’t include Him.

many

It is only holy book in the earth that is in its original form .
We read the same Quran that was recited by the last messenger of God.

And which qira’ah would that be?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qirat
It’s not even in the form it was under the earliest Muslims, as the textual history shows. The Dome of the Rock inscription doesn’t match. Were it not that a German recognized first what the Quran manuscripts from the mosque of Sana’ were, they too, like many other discoveries, would have been distroyed.

Praise to God only.

Quran has more than 6 thousands verses . it’s a miracle that even non Arabs can memorised the whole Quran even without understanding the language .

I know illeterat Coptic peasants who can recite the entire monastic Divine Liturgy, all 5 hours of it, in Coptic (a dead language to them).

I read that not even any single Pope ever memorised holy Bible

.
In the early Church, you couldn’t be ordained a reader (the lowest grade of semi-ordained clergy) without first memorizing all the Pslams.

There are Jews who know a copy of the Masoretic Hebrew OT that if you put a pin through it, they can tell you which word it goes through on every page. So it must be divine. Oh, yeah, I forgot: the OT is divine.

God Almighty Of Course .

Neihter Jesus (p) nor Muhammed (p) had any power to divide or fixed moon

Neither did, but as God Almighty, Jesus could.

best of the miracles is mentioned already

 

[planten]

Salaam/peace

I read Bible long ago . I remember Jesus (p) cursed a tree because there was no fruit for him .

In an area , people were surprised because Jesus (p) could not do there anything .

Jesus (p) also said something like that I can not do anything of my own . He also said :

My Father is greater than I & “My father is greater than all.”

many

It is only holy book in the earth that is in its original form .
We read the same Quran that was recited by the last messenger of God.

Praise to God only.

Quran has more than 6 thousands verses . it’s a miracle that even non Arabs can memorised the whole Quran even without understanding the language .

I read that not even any single Pope ever memorised holy Bible .

God Almighty Of Course .

Neihter Jesus (p) nor Muhammed (p) had any power to divide or fixed moon

best of the miracles is mentioned already

After seeing what is written above that Jesus could not do anything of his own … etc, the christians should drop the idea of Jesus being anything more than a mere man. How could he be God who had a God to whom he prayed. And he could not do anything of his own. That is the same as is with every one of us. Dear o Dear, how will these people understand the truth !!!

 

[Angelos]

After seeing what is written above that Jesus could not do anything of his own … etc, the christians should drop the idea of Jesus being anything more than a mere man. How could he be God who had a God to whom he prayed. And he could not do anything of his own. That is the same as is with every one of us. Dear o Dear, how will these people understand the truth !!!

Dear planten, after reading your so many meaningless posts, I guess it is high time you quit twisting the meaning of the Gospels. Focusing on a few verses that are detached from their context and ignoring the rest of the verses will not help you support your fallacious conclusions.

Muslim Woman and you both should read the verses below to understand what I mean:

John 15:4-5
Abide in me: and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing

**
John 14:5-6**
Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest. And how can we know the way? Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. **No man cometh to the Father, but by me. **

 

[planten]

Dear planten, after reading your so many meaningless posts, I guess it is high time you quit twisting the meaning of the Gospels. Focusing on a few verses that are detached from their context and ignoring the rest of the verses will not help you support your fallacious conclusions.

Muslim Woman and you both should read the verses below to understand what I mean:

John 15:4-5
Abide in me: and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing

**
John 14:5-6**
Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest. And how can we know the way? Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. **No man cometh to the Father, but by me. **

Angelos, what you are writing is correct. But what we have written is also from the bible. jesus said himself “I cannot do anything of my own…”’ We have only quoted it and pointed out the verse to you so that you do not ignore it. keep it in mind that jesus had limitations and he could not do anything of himself. That is just like all of us… You understand, please…

 

[KenEOTE]

Angelos, what you are writing is correct. But what we have written is also from the bible. jesus said himself “I cannot do anything of my own…”’ We have only quoted it and pointed out the verse to you so that you do not ignore it. keep it in mind that jesus had limitations and he could not do anything of himself. That is just like all of us… You understand, please…

Actually you keep saying you quote the bible… But never give the verse… You also do not give it in context meaning the verses before and after.

I could easily say that Mohammad said himself that he was not a prophet. He said “I am a goat herder nothing more…” Its hard to dialogue with someone who just claims to quote the Bible yet never say where it is they are quoting. I notice that the Christians will quote the Quran and they give you the decency to say where they got it, yet you and muslim woman say it says but never identify where you got it.

Jesus had the same limitations that God the father has. God the father can not sin neither could Jesus. So yes he has limitations, he could not do anything that goes against his character. Unlike us and mohammad we can do things that go against the character we have developed and are known for.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

Actually I know a few men and woman who have memorized the whole Bible word for word. .

who checked if really they can do it ? They gave any test in public ?

to claim that one is a hafizz ( who can recite the whole Quran from memory ) , s/he needs to appear in front a group —members are themselves hafizz. They take the test in front of other poeple .

Quran memorise competition takes place in Muslim countries each year …never heard of Bible memorise competion so far.

 

[KenEOTE]

Salaam/peace

who checked if really they can do it ? They gave any test in public ?

to claim that one is a hafizz ( who can recite the whole Quran from memory ) , s/he needs to appear in front a group —members are themselves hafizz. They take the test in front of other poeple .

Quran memorise competition takes place in Muslim countries each year …never heard of Bible memorise competion so far.

I know them. I have actually stood there with a bible and asked them to recite random verses and they did it word for word in front of a large group.

Actually you would be incorrect. I have seen many memorization competitions with the Bible. It happens among Protestant Churches more then Catholic but I know a Priest who has all the creeds memorized as well as the entire Bible.

Being able to memorize something takes discipline it is not a sign that what is memorized is divine. As I have said I know a man who has all of Shakespeare writings memorized I know another who has memorized Many of Mark Twain’s writings.

It is more of a sign of devotion of the individual. I personally am in the process of memorizing the entire Bible. I am not doing it to win a competition or prove I am more pious then someone else, I am doing it because I want to know God more. I feel it will be well worth it.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

… I have seen many memorization competitions with the Bible.

competition video is avaiable online ? pl. give me one

a Priest who has all the creeds memorized as well as the entire Bible.

what’s his name ? Pl. give me his email add . i want to ask him directly

As I have said I know a man who has all of Shakespeare writings memorized I know another who has memorized Many of Mark Twain’s writings.

I doubt . Who took the test of these persons ? Give more more info pl

Also , u forgot non Arabs dont know the language ; still they can do it . U mentioned those , they memorised it in a foreign language ?

 

[scipio337]

Salaam/peace

competition video is avaiable online ? pl. give me one

what’s his name ? Pl. give me his email add . i want to ask him directly

I doubt . Who took the test of these persons ? Give more more info pl

Also , u forgot non Arabs dont know the language ; still they can do it . U mentioned those , they memorised it in a foreign language ?

Since when is memorization and regurgitation of ANY text any sign of divine origin?

This is really too much.

 

[KenEOTE]

Salaam/peace

competition video is avaiable online ? pl. give me one

what’s his name ? Pl. give me his email add . i want to ask him directly

I doubt . Who took the test of these persons ? Give more more info pl

Also , u forgot non Arabs dont know the language ; still they can do it . U mentioned those , they memorised it in a foreign language ?

What difference does it make what language? You know for a play I had to memorize a Chinese proverb in Chinese. I could do it, but I didn’t understand it. Better to understand what you memorize then to memorize in vain.

I would have to ask him before I gave out his e-mail. I don’t do that to my friends.

As far as a video online I am not sure if there is or not.

But here is the thing when the Muslim memorizes the Quran do they understand what they have memorized or is it just sounds to them? Also can they only recite it in order or if can you ask them a specific verse and they can go to it?

The people I know can do it in order or if you ask a specific verse they can tell you what it says.

Do you have video of the muslims doing it?

You still have not explained how this proves it is divine.

If you want to see many people who have Shakespeare works memorized just go to a Shakespearean Festival they perform his plays and they people have it memorized word for word. To some it is a foreign language in that they were born all over the world. Tell me again how does memorization prove its divinity?

 

[KenEOTE]

Since when is memorization and regurgitation of ANY text any sign of divine origin?

This is really too much.

That was my point I can find people who have memorized manuals for equipment. Those manuals are not divine.

 

[Angelos]

Angelos, what you are writing is correct. But what we have written is also from the bible. jesus said himself “I cannot do anything of my own…”’ We have only quoted it and pointed out the verse to you so that you do not ignore it. keep it in mind that jesus had limitations and he could not do anything of himself. That is just like all of us… You understand, please…

Yes, but the context of the verses makes clear that Jesus means right the opposite of what you work out from the text in accordance with your expectations.

Ironically, Jesus by no means points out His limitations when He says “I can do nothing on My own”, but underlines His divinity dependent on the divinity of His Father. Jesus is NOT a second or independent God, but the Son of the Father, whom He imitates, and who authorises His divine nature. As a son always follows and imitates his Father, Jesus the Son does the same.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

After seeing what is written above that Jesus could not do anything of his own … etc, the christians should drop the idea of Jesus being anything more than a mere man. How could he be God who had a God to whom he prayed.
Because He is also a man.

And he could not do anything of his own. That is the same as is with every one of us.

More Bible Study and Eucharist

 

[wina]

Since when is memorization and regurgitation of ANY text any sign of divine origin?

This is really too much.

I agree…it’s really too much…

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Salaam/peace

who checked if really they can do it ? They gave any test in public ?

to claim that one is a hafizz ( who can recite the whole Quran from memory ) , s/he needs to appear in front a group —members are themselves hafizz. They take the test in front of other poeple .

Quran memorise competition takes place in Muslim countries each year …never heard of Bible memorise competion so far.

They are quite popular among Protestants.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Salaam/peace

competition video is avaiable online ? pl. give me one

what’s his name ? Pl. give me his email add . i want to ask him directly

I doubt . Who took the test of these persons ? Give more more info pl

Also , u forgot non Arabs dont know the language ; still they can do it . U mentioned those , they memorised it in a foreign language ?

Pop singers do the same all the time, with phonetics (for that matter, so do opera singers, though most of them actually understand what they are singing).

 

[planten]

Because He is also a man.

So no difference between us and the prophets?

More Bible Study and Eucharist

**Please do not compare apples with oranges. I was comparing the common people with Jesus as a God, not Jesus as a prophet. Jesus said that he could not do anything of his own.

And you have got a mutiple nature of Jesus. That is against all sense. That is being used cleverly to cover up things on different sides. He is a man and a god. What a wrong idea? That is a bad basis to start with. All discussion fails with that belief at the base. We cannot allow that. Let him be a man or let him be a god and then come and discuss please.

Next, I see a cow walking past. May i consider that may be god? And why not according to the principle of the church of multi-nature appearance of god in animal form?. jesus was an animal too. How can the church explain all these things please?**

 

[planten]

Originally Posted by scipio337
Since when is memorization and regurgitation of ANY text any sign of divine origin?

This is really too much.

I agree…it’s really too much…

I wish you had said that it was difficult job. There is no question of “How much” “Too much” here. It serves the purpose of preservation of the Quran. Otherwise the publication of various books will be " too much".