Muslim Inferiority Complex?

[dzheremi]

I am still not understanding why God should need or want or have use for money or spoils.

God created the universe and everything it, didn’t He? (Yes. Yes he did.)

Hmm…what are some riches compared to the totality of existence, the cosmos, and infinity beyond the bounds of any human concept? Really, what is it?

Islam has worldly aspirations, no matter how they devide up their spoils or anything else.

I find the whole matter problematic, though…that God should be “One” (and He is!), and yet some of Muhammad’s gains are shared with Him, and that so many things in the Qur’an are specified to be for the sake of God and His messenger, and many of them are things like this (riches) that I can’t for the life of me figure why God would care about at all.

I wonder what Muslims would make of the various stories in the Bible teaching that we are not to make a show of our faith or our charitable giving, that the rich will need to abandon everything to enter heaven, etc. When the poor woman in Luke 21 gave all that she had but it amounted to very little, Jesus said "“Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on.”

It was not by decree or to curry favor, but the Lord saw her gift and was pleased, and not because of any “proper” mathematical division of spoils.

 

[inJESUS]

I find the whole matter problematic, though…that God should be “One” (and He is!), and yet some of Muhammad’s gains are shared with Him, and that so many things in the Qur’an are specified to be for the sake of God and His messenger

 

[Sister_Amy]

I wonder who inherited Khadija.

Her husband and her children. Though you should know she spent much of her wealth during her lifetime to support her husband and to help the Muslims. She was known as a very charitable woman.

 

[Eucharisted]

I’ll just leave this here.

 

[Sister_Amy]

There is an old saying that you never put a woman ahead of your friends. No sex is worth it. No relationship is worth it. Muhammed put a woman ahead of a close relationship.

College kids today refer to it as “Bros before Hoes”

The fact that he would destroy a relationship for a woman tells me his priority was sex.

I take it you would marry a friend’s ex wife?

Why do you think he destroyed his relationship with Zaid? That’s a really unfair assumption. And it’s fascinating to me that you would tolerate such a low opinion of women as demonstrated in this post of yours. Just because men today (in college or whereever) have low ethical standards and a misogynistic view of women doesn’t mean you can’t at least try to see beyond your cultural bias.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I am still not understanding why God should need or want or have use for money or spoils.

God created the universe and everything it, didn’t He? (Yes. Yes he did.)

Hmm…what are some riches compared to the totality of existence, the cosmos, and infinity beyond the bounds of any human concept? Really, what is it?

Islam has worldly aspirations, no matter how they devide up their spoils or anything else.

I find the whole matter problematic, though…that God should be “One” (and He is!), and yet some of Muhammad’s gains are shared with Him, and that so many things in the Qur’an are specified to be for the sake of God and His messenger, and many of them are things like this (riches) that I can’t for the life of me figure why God would care about at all.

I wonder what Muslims would make of the various stories in the Bible teaching that we are not to make a show of our faith or our charitable giving, that the rich will need to abandon everything to enter heaven, etc. When the poor woman in Luke 21 gave all that she had but it amounted to very little, Jesus said "“Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on.”

It was not by decree or to curry favor, but the Lord saw her gift and was pleased, and not because of any “proper” mathematical division of spoils.

What do you think a “tithe” is?

 

[dzheremi]

I would define it as money given by the faithful to the Church for specific uses that are known to them. I have never noticed any notice of collection “for God” or anything so vague. It is always for religious education, Church upkeep, etc. I think the day that we are asked to give me “for God” (meaning with God as the intended recipient), many people will wonder about our delivery system. That’s what inJESUS and I are wondering.

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines it in this way, by the way (emphasis added): Generally defined as “the tenth part of the increase arising from the profits of land and stock, allotted to the clergy for their support or devoted to religious or charitable uses”. A more radical definition is “the tenth part of all fruits and profits justly acquired, owed to God in recognition of his supreme dominion over man, and to be paid to the ministers of the church”

I am assuming that Muslims would take the more radical definition as something close to the meaning of their tithing, which is fine. Defined metaphorically there is no problem, since we obviously believe that all of our offerings before God are ultimately for His glory, but this is different than proclaiming a certain percentage as being reserved for God, as Islam seems to specify.

God doesn’t need money.So the wording in those passages is very strange to us, if it has anything but a very metaphorical meaning.

 

[ralphinal]

Why do you think he destroyed his relationship with Zaid? That’s a really unfair assumption. And it’s fascinating to me that you would tolerate such a low opinion of women as demonstrated in this post of yours. Just because men today (in college or whereever) have low ethical standards and a misogynistic view of women doesn’t mean you can’t at least try to see beyond your cultural bias.

Now, where am I showing a low opinion of women? Is it because I consider the wives, girlfriends, and exes of friends and family off limits?

Would it show a higher opinion of women if I thought all women were fair game? WOuld it be more ethical to say that if I can take them, they are mine?

I was using the quote to show a better mentality than what seems to have been in Mohammid’s time.

Was his relationship with the boy the same?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I would define it as money given by the faithful to the Church for specific uses that are known to them. I have never noticed any notice of collection “for God” or anything so vague. It is always for religious education, Church upkeep, etc. I think the day that we are asked to give me “for God” (meaning with God as the intended recipient), many people will wonder about our delivery system. That’s what inJESUS and I are wondering.

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines it in this way, by the way (emphasis added): Generally defined as “the tenth part of the increase arising from the profits of land and stock, allotted to the clergy for their support or devoted to religious or charitable uses”. A more radical definition is “the tenth part of all fruits and profits justly acquired, owed to God in recognition of his supreme dominion over man, and to be paid to the ministers of the church”

I am assuming that Muslims would take the more radical definition as something close to the meaning of their tithing, which is fine. Defined metaphorically there is no problem, since we obviously believe that all of our offerings before God are ultimately for His glory, but this is different than proclaiming a certain percentage as being reserved for God, as Islam seems to specify.

God doesn’t need money.So the wording in those passages is very strange to us, if it has anything but a very metaphorical meaning.

Muslims certainly don’t consider that they are giving the money “to God,” but rather that any sort of wealth is provision from God, and thus a portion should always be spent in His cause. I.e., “Spend in the way of Allah.” Money which is “reserved” for God or whatever language used to denote the same, is money to spent exactly as you prescribed–for the construction and upkeep of houses of worship, for the education of the religion, for any material cost associated with advancing it, to support Muslims who have been persecuted.

Basically, it’s use is precisely the same as what the “Church” uses tithe monies for.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Now, where am I showing a low opinion of women? Is it because I consider the wives, girlfriends, and exes of friends and family off limits?

Would it show a higher opinion of women if I thought all women were fair game? WOuld it be more ethical to say that if I can take them, they are mine?

I was using the quote to show a better mentality than what seems to have been in Mohammid’s time.

Was his relationship with the boy the same?

The mentality did not exist in his time, it apparently exists now. That woman have lower importance to men than other men is what you demonstrated with your post–a mentality apparently existing today.

 

[ralphinal]

The mentality did not exist in his time, it apparently exists now. That woman have lower importance to men than other men is what you demonstrated with your post–a mentality apparently existing today.

Oh. I understand now. Ok, the reason that I feel that way is not because women are less than men. It is because it is wrong to destroy a relationship for a possible relationship. True friends are not common. Family is rare. To say that I will destroy this interaction for someone else is not a healty attitude. I would not destroy an existing bond for a new friendship with a man either.

And do not tell me that Muhammed’s era treated women with more respect than we do now or gave them equal rights as men.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Oh. I understand now. Ok, the reason that I feel that way is not because women are less than men. It is because it is wrong to destroy a relationship for a possible relationship. True friends are not common. Family is rare. To say that I will destroy this interaction for someone else is not a healty attitude. I would not destroy an existing bond for a new friendship with a man either.

And do not tell me that Muhammed’s era treated women with more respect than we do now or gave them equal rights as men.

I think Islam gave women rights that some women are refused today. I absolutely think Muhammad treated women better than men treat women today. And I’ll tell you that if I please. But that’s not the subject matter here so much actually.

Here is a more important point. You said, “It is because it is wrong to destroy a relationship for a possible relationship.” You are assuming, I think, that the development of one relationship implies or dictates the destruction of another, which isn’t true. It’s not true that the relationship of Muhammad with Zaid suffered because of Muhammad’s marriage to Zaynab. If Zaynab wanted the marriage, as did Muhammad, and Zaid was not happy with Zaynab as his wife either, then what’s the problem? I really do think you’re assuming or imagining a problem to be there which simply didn’t (and doesn’t) exist.

 

[ralphinal]

I think Islam gave women rights that some women are refused today. I absolutely think Muhammad treated women better than men treat women today. And I’ll tell you that if I please. But that’s not the subject matter here so much actually.

I would love to see some examples. PM if you want so that we do not further drive this thread off topic.

Here is a more important point. You said, “It is because it is wrong to destroy a relationship for a possible relationship.” You are assuming, I think, that the development of one relationship implies or dictates the destruction of another, which isn’t true. It’s not true that the relationship of Muhammad with Zaid suffered because of Muhammad’s marriage to Zaynab. If Zaynab wanted the marriage, as did Muhammad, and Zaid was not happy with Zaynab as his wife either, then what’s the problem? I really do think you’re assuming or imagining a problem to be there which simply didn’t (and doesn’t) exist.

I guess you have never had someone you love leave you for someone else. If Zaid did not want her as his wife, why did he marry her to begin with?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I would love to see some examples. PM if you want so that we do not further drive this thread off topic.

I guess you have never had someone you love leave you for someone else. If Zaid did not want her as his wife, why did he marry her to begin with?

I think you guess wrong.

The marriage was arranged undoubtedly by some who thought they would make a happy couple. Remember that Zaynab was not happy with the arrangment either. Why people always discount her view makes no sense to me, except as an expression of misogyny. That her opinion didn’t count for some reason.

 

[ralphinal]

I think you guess wrong.

The marriage was arranged undoubtedly by some who thought they would make a happy couple. Remember that Zaynab was not happy with the arrangment either. Why people always discount her view makes no sense to me, except as an expression of misogyny. That her opinion didn’t count for some reason.

So, if the marraige was arranged, why could she not have said no?

I will grant you the divorce. Now, is it acceptable for Muhammed to marry her? How long was she married to Zaid? Didn’t Muhammed have to change rules to allow the marriage?

 

[Sister_Amy]

So, if the marraige was arranged, why could she not have said no?

She could have. Maybe she wanted to give it a try, and in the end it just didn’t work out. This happens to a lot of marriages, I think.

I will grant you the divorce. Now, is it acceptable for Muhammed to marry her? How long was she married to Zaid? Didn’t Muhammed have to change rules to allow the marriage?

I don’t know exactly how long they were married. I don’t think it was for very long but I really don’t know the answer, sorry. Muhammad was worried about marrying her but it became acceptable. Muhammad never changed the rules–the rules came from Allah. And while a father may never marry any woman married to his biological son, (which is an interesting case, that a woman’s father-in-law is a permanent relative, even if she is divorced/widowed) the rule does not apply to adopted children.

And if you’re thinking “How come?” I can’t answer–except that I believe it’s from Allah and I accept it.

 

[inJESUS]

So, if the marraige was arranged, why could she not have said no?

I will grant you the divorce. Now, is it acceptable for Muhammed to marry her? How long was she married to Zaid? Didn’t Muhammed have to change rules to allow the marriage?

Al-Tabari says:

So Zayd left, and having come to the Messenger of God, he said: “Messenger of God, I have heard that you came to my house. Why didn’t you go in, you who are as dear to me as my father and mother? Messenger of God, perhaps Zaynab has excited your admiration, and so I will separate myself from her.” Zayd could find no possible way to [approach] her after that day. He would come to the Messenger of God and tell him so, but the Messenger of God would say to him, “Keep your wife.” Zayd separated from her and left her, and she became free.

And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him.But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them

This means that even before the divorce occurred Allah had already caused Muhammad to desire a married woman and was telling him he shouldn’t conceal it.

i don’t know what it means to equal marriage with “a want of someone”, but the author is saying that this marriage is to give an example for others which i have difficulty understanding as well, because muhammad didn’t have to do all this to teach something…he surely didn’t have to marry his adopted son’s wife in order for Zaid not to be called zaid ibn Muhammad.

Anas (Allah be pleased with him) reported: When the ‘Iddah of Zainab was over, Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to Zaid to make a mention to her about him. Zaid went on until he came to her and she was fermenting her flour. He (Zaid) said: As I saw her I felt in my heart an idea of her greatness so much so that I could not see towards her (simply for the fact) that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) had made a mention of her. So I turned my back towards her, and I turned upon my heels, and said: Zainab, Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) has sent (me) with a message to you. She said: I do not do anything until I solicit the will of my Lord. So she stood at her place of worship and the (verse of) the Qur’an (pertaining to her marriage) was revealed, and Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to her without permission… (Sahih Muslim, Book 008 number 3330)

this hadith proves that Muhammad wanted to marry her even before the verse of the Quran was composed.

Al-Tabari continues:

When the Exalted Allah said, “Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah” this was concerning Zainab the daughter of Jash whom the prophet – pbuh – had seen in her robes and was enamored by her. Thus when Allah saw what was stirring in His prophet’s soul, he placed hatred in the heart of Zaid towards Zainab that he may depart from her. When Zaid mentioned his intention to separate from Zainab to the prophet, the prophet told him, “Retain thou thy wife” even though the prophet desired that they separate so that he could marry her…

Then it’d be of no surprise to read the following from Al-Qurtubi:

Tenth: If Muhammad looks at a woman (and desires her) then it is necessary for her husband to divorce her and for Muhammad to marry her. Ibn Al A’raby said, “This is what the servant of the two holy mosques has also said, as was clear to the scholars **from the story of Zaid **which also had this meaning.”

All in all, we see that Allah said to Muhammad he shouldn’t conceal his desire to a married woman and sent revelations to “defend” Muhammad just to teach some a lesson.

 

[algebra]

Yes if you read the accounts about zaynab and zaid carefully.

You realise that zaid ended up divorcing his wife, only after Mohammed checked her out half naked.

The power that Mohammed wielded in the society was absolute, so you had to tread really carefully around the man, to make sure you didnt cross him.

 

[planten]

Yes if you read the accounts about zaynab and zaid carefully.

You realise that zaid ended up divorcing his wife, only after Mohammed checked her out half naked.

The power that Mohammed wielded in the society was absolute, so you had to tread really carefully around the man, to make sure you didnt cross him.

Both the posts of inJesus and algebra above are false, incorrect and malafide. Tabari could not be any authority. No need to trust Tabari. if we Muslims go to the Jews and ask them something about Jesus and his mother Mary, they will tell us a lot of things about them. Then if we post those things on this forum the christians, inJesus etc. will not be happy.

So I suggest to inJesus not to indulge in such reports. Come to the Quran. There is no sin in marrying the ex-wife of an adopted son. The adopted son is not a real son. Also the un-real begotten son (Jesus) is also not a son. There is no harm to divorce any wife if things (reconcilliation) do not work out. There is no harm to marry any divorced lady. All the teachings of church in this regard are false. They are not good teachings and they are based on gross misunderstanding.

Perhaps the christians want to keep tied up the sick and unfit couples tied up for life time. That would be a big burden (cruelty) on the ladies and gents. jesus lived an un-natural life. He did not get married and went away. he was about 33 years old and still was not married. Why? Was he not a 100% man as some friends are telling us here on this forum? It does not show that he was 100 % man. And we already know that he was not a god. So what was he (Jesus)?

 

[Reuben_J]

If Zaynab wanted the marriage, as did Muhammad, and Zaid was not happy with Zaynab as his wife either, then what’s the problem? I really do think you’re assuming or imagining a problem to be there which simply didn’t (and doesn’t) exist.

It is just not morally right, regardless of what Jesus’ teaching is on divorce and marrying a divorced person. Mohammad made it right because of Allah revelation’s to him and so that became an Islamic position.

I think all explanations on why it is not right are resonable. The only thing now that made it ok is because of Allah’s revelation at that moment to say it’s ok.

Non-Muslims would look at the circumstances surrounding this marraige and it probably not as simple that meet the eyes. Some of the realities to be considered may be, (a) Mohammad’s position as the head of the organization and Mohammad’s rights therein, (b) Zaid as former slave and taken in by Mohammad as adopted son, an act certainly that put Zaid indebted to his benafactor.

We cannot totally exclude that Mohammad did not have an interest in Zainab during her marraige to Zaid, and this can cause some friction in the marraige especially to Zaid. We also cannot exclude the possiblity that Zaid divorced her to make way for Mohammad’s intention. Like I said, ultimately Mohammad married her.

Again, it is the principle behind the marraige between the wife of a person considered as a son that Christians questioned and which Mohammad endorsed. I think this is something we can ponder about.