Muslim propaganda event at my school

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Rodrigo_Bivar said:
Sure and that is why the catechism has been changed over the years. The point about the catechism is the same for a pope. They are not infallible unless speaking infallibly. Parts of the catechism are based on infallible teachings, but not the part about Islam. Never has and never will - because of its nature.

Regardless, you place too much authority on the catechism. If the Pope does not place value on it wrt Islam, why should I or anyone else?
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The catechism has NOTHING to say about “islam” (the word does not appear), and only mentions “muslims”:

**841 **The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

That is an VERY cleverly worded statement which means nothing more than muslims “profess” to hold the faith of Abraham, and who supposedly adore God who will be mankind’s judge on the last day,… thta last bit (God who will be mankind’s judge on the last day) is a direct “dig” at their refusal to accept that Jesus (whom they believe WILL judge mankind on the last day) is God.

Therefore, we Catholics can see “islam” as pretty much anything we wnat to see it as, as it’s neither defended in the catechism AS “islam”, nor validated as a “proper” religion, because “islam” does not believe in Jesus as God.

What the typical (uneducated) muslim believes MAY BE compatible to some extent with the Church, but “islam” per se, which is nowhere mentioned in the catechism, is certainly NOT the religion which accepts Jesus as a person of God, which is what the catechism MEANS by the “faith of Abraham professed by mulsims”.
 
Keikiolu,
I think your point should be directed at Pius X, not me.
Pius X:
Instead of judging before you attend, why not go and see what it is like? Let us not forget the Catholic Church’s teaching on Islam:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330 From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
  1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. From Nostra Aetate, Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Proclaimed by Pope Paul VI and a document of the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican.
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#82 Rodrigo Bivar said:
Keikiolu,
I think your point should be directed at Pius X, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pius X
Instead of judging before you attend, why not go and see what it is like? Let us not forget the Catholic Church’s teaching on Islam:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330 From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
  1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. From Nostra Aetate, Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Proclaimed by Pope Paul VI and a document of the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican.
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I wasn’t directing my point at you. You merely offered me a place to comment in response to your posting.

As to the verbage in Nostra Aetate, it simply reiterates (beforehand) what the present catechism now says.

The phrase, “with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself”, tells me all that needs saying about where “islam” fits into the Church as the full deposit of faith that it is.

It basically says, “Pity the poor deluded muslims, as they are trying in their culture-bound way to reach for God even though their holy books are utterly bogus and if followed thoroughly would lead them in the exactly opposite direction. Thank God there are so many uneducated muslims!”

If they (mohammedan religious leaders) were to “open up” and not force their charges (people) to suppress Christianity within their territory they would soon discover that Christianity would explode amongst their people, and their power would diminish.

They will never let that happen, so hopes for a “forgetting of the past” is an empty wish, and said merely to present Christianity as “more polite” than so-called Islam, who calls for us to “convert or die”.

And this is no argument with you. Just a statement of my beliefs as to the “Mohammedan vs. Christian” battle for souls. 🙂

Some day we will all be faced with the choice to convert or die. In fact, that choice is being forced on you now.

Some choose to accept reality, and see the “offer” for what it is. Some choose not to.
 
lukewarm said:
What did the old men, chidlren, ox and sheep to to make the “LORD of Israel” kill them and every living breathing thing?
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First, George is right, you completely ignored the last part of my previous post, because your answer is right there. As sad as it was, those children had been raised in those despicable cultures, and leaving them alive would have preserved the cultures. I would be willing to bet, if I were a betting man, that you also think it was morally faulty to drop the atomic bombs on Japan, or firebomb parts of Germany during WWII.

Second, you have revealed much about your own sense of morality by including the livestock in your objection to the slaughter. Do you believe that killing an animal compares in any way to killing a human being? I would really like to know. However, to answer your question, the livestock were considered ritually unclean.

Now, I will ask you again, find a passage in the Bible where God tells someone to do something bad. And by bad, I don’t mean unpleasant or distasteful. I mean morally reprehensible or evil.

Also, why has this conversation swerved so far from the thread topic?
 
So if I held an event to invite people to learn about my Catholic church, would you people call it a “Catholic propaganda event”? Or is it simply open season on Muslim bashing?
 
jerry_h_1700 said:
So if I held an event to invite people to learn about my Catholic church, would you people call it a “Catholic propaganda event”?
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Propaganda is the dissemination of information. It often has negative connotations.
jerry_h_1700 said:
Or is it simply open season on Muslim bashing?
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You mean ‘is it open season on Muslims’! Not ‘on Muslim bashing’, else the ‘open season’ would on those that bash Muslims!
 
Montalban said:
Propaganda is the dissemination of information. It often has negative connotations.
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You are correct that the word “propaganda” is in itself neutral, however it is quite obvious that the original poster meant it in a negative light, after all if anyone ever posted here that the Catholics answers program was a “propaganda” organization then we would have much people here screaming up a storm.
 
jerry_h_1700 said:
You are correct that the word “propaganda” is in itself neutral, however it is quite obvious that the original poster meant it in a negative light, after all if anyone ever posted here that the Catholics answers program was a “propaganda” organization then we would have much people here screaming up a storm.
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If you think that this is “Muslim bashing” then we simply have to examine whether or not, what Moslems disseminate is ‘negative’ or if the ‘fears’ against their propaganda are unfounded.

There’s not much information about what is actually going to be subject to this discussion.

I suppose one could be critical because we’re lead to believe it’s negative, and we’re not really able to examine the talk/topics.
 
Montalban said:
If you think that this is “Muslim bashing” then we simply have to examine whether or not, what Moslems disseminate is ‘negative’ or if the ‘fears’ against their propaganda are unfounded.

There’s not much information about what is actually going to be subject to this discussion.

I suppose one could be critical because we’re lead to believe it’s negative, and we’re not really able to examine the talk/topics.
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**Come off it, you know I like you but you just remind me one of the classical Neocon lines and it makes you just sound exactly like one of them…😉 **
 
AbeOman said:
Come off it, you know I like you but you just remind me one of the classical Neocon lines and it makes you just sound exactly like one of them…
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What points are you trying to address this time?

You going to pick up on the Apostates issue? Or, the wife-beating one?
 
Montalban said:
What points are you trying to address this time?

You going to pick up on the Apostates issue? Or, the wife-beating one?
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What is the matter, had a rough weekend end…🙂 just teasing you.😉
look let’s settle this once and for all you don’t like Islam or Muslims that is your problem, live with it, just leave me out of it. in other words, I like to forum and have made friends and would like to stick around so please for my sake, don’t insult me…meaning don’t insult my religion, why don’t you learn from the few Muslims on this site who will never insult Catholism or Christianity because that is un Islamic.

I thought I could debate with you but it’s almost impossible and everyone of us will eventually carry or bear his own cross (from the bible) so let’s not get into any situations. OK

i would appreciate that and would hope you too.
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
Keikiolu,
I think your point should be directed at Pius X, not me.
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A document of the Second Vatican Council holds far more weight than the current Pope’s opinion. Although the catechisms can be changed, and the Pope’s opinions can vary, the document of an Ecumenical Council can not be changed. Nostra Aetate supercedes the Pope’s opinion, and as an official document of the church, which the Pope’s opinion is not, clearly outlines the Church’s teaching.
 
Pius_X said:
A document of the Second Vatican Council holds far more weight than the current Pope’s opinion. Although the catechisms can be changed, and the Pope’s opinions can vary, the document of an Ecumenical Council can not be changed. Nostra Aetate supercedes the Pope’s opinion, and as an official document of the church, which the Pope’s opinion is not, clearly outlines the Church’s teaching.
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Neither can a papal bull. So what?

The catechism has undergone revision in the past. The issue of Islam and Muslims is not infallible. Never will be.

The Pope does not believe Muslims worship the same god. So if your numero uno does not believe, don’t expect others to do so.
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
Neither can a papal bull. So what?

The catechism has undergone revision in the past. The issue of Islam and Muslims is not infallible. Never will be.

The Pope does not believe Muslims worship the same god. So if your numero uno does not believe, don’t expect others to do so.
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Please share with me for my own knowledge where the Pope said he does not believe Muslims worship the same God…?

Interesting and did know it to be so…
 
AbeOman said:
Please share with me for my own knowledge where the Pope said he does not believe Muslims worship the same God…?

Interesting and did know it to be so…
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It is his claim that Muslims are unwilling to discuss the Trinity and accept it as a truth in dialogue.

According to Marco Politi, the Vatican expert for the Italian daily La Repubblica: “Certainly he closes the door to an idea which was very dear to John Paul II - the idea that Christians, Jews and Muslims have the same God and have to pray together to the same God.”
clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2007/10/vatican-rebuffs-muslim-outreach-quran.html
 
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